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  • FIRST POST
    • moorerh
    • By moorerh 15th Aug 16, 7:00 PM
    • 15Posts
    • 8Thanks
    moorerh
    14 Services - Visitor Parking
    • #1
    • 15th Aug 16, 7:00 PM
    14 Services - Visitor Parking 15th Aug 16 at 7:00 PM
    Hi there,

    So I live in an apartment complex in a quite a large park. My girlfriend recently got a ticket from this company (who's disgusting customer service I won't go into here!) for overstaying in a 3 hours visitor parking bay. Now, my issue with this is that where I live this company has a monopoly on a very large area and there is absolutely no free parking anywhere short of a 10 minute walk to my residence. They seem to think that it's acceptable to only allow residents to have visitors for up to 3 hours. They want to charge £100! (£60 if paid within 14 days)

    Can I do anything to fight this?
Page 2
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 17th Aug 16, 8:00 PM
    • 4,147 Posts
    • 4,761 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Do I have to send the IPC letter in physical writing or can I send it online?

    Also, what happens if they ignore it?
    Originally posted by moorerh
    As you can see on this forum the IPC are a waste of time they will reject your appeal, try if you want.

    As everyone is saying here .... go to the management company to get this cancelled
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • moorerh
    • By moorerh 14th Sep 16, 9:21 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    moorerh
    Hi everyone, as you all said it would be, my appeal was rejected. This is what they responded with:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company for the provision of their services? I require their contact details.

    I can confirm that 14 Services operate the site, their contact details can be found online.

    2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?

    We are under no obligation to provide this information at this stage, however details of the landowner for the site in question are a matter of public record and can be obtained by contacting the Land Registry office.

    3. As you are not the landowner please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that you have their authority to both issue parking charges and litigate in your own name.

    Our Client; 14 Services, has a contract with the landowner to operate and enforce the parking control measures for that site. You are not at liberty to have sight of such agreement as there is a clear privity of contract insomuch as the contract between the Operator and the landowner has no bearing on the contract between the Operator and the motorist.


    4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.

    No, the contractual terms make it clear that any driver parking in this area, not in accordance with the terms and conditions of parking, agrees to pay the Operators charge. It is in essence the 'price' that the motorist has agreed to pay for parking outside of the stated terms and conditions of parking.


    5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract please provide your justification of this sum.

    Loss is not relevant as the claim is not for breach of contract. The contractual terms make it clear that any driver parking in this area, not in accordance with the terms and conditions of parking, agrees to pay the Operators charge. It is in essence the 'price' that the motorist has agreed to pay for parking outside of the stated terms and conditions of parking.

    In layman's terms, the Operator is making an offer to the motorist, whereby the motorist, for example, can either park for free providing that a valid parking permit is displayed, or can park without a valid parking permit, for a charge of £100.00 reduced to £60.00 within 14 days. The charge itself is a core contractual price term and one which is non negotiable after the contract has been entered into.

    In the event that a motorist believes the charge to be extravagant or unreasonable, then they are of course free to move their vehicle, within a reasonable grace period and to park elsewhere. By leaving their vehicle at this location, the motorist, by way of affirmation, has agreed to pay the Operators fixed charge.

    It should also be noted that even if the claim was for breach of contract, the recent case of Beavis -v- Parking Eye UKSC 2015/0116; has made it clear that such charges are legal if they are commercially justifiable, or if the Operator has a legitimate interest in imposing such a charge. As the amount here is similar to that which was allowed by the Supreme Court, then this charge can be deemed both reasonable and recoverable.



    6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? Answer yes or no.

    Please see response to question 5.

    7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.

    Should you have any concerns in respect of any VAT arrangement which may or may not be in place between our Client and HMRC, we would refer you to HMRC.

    8. Please provide a copy of the signs that purportedly were on site which you contend formed a contract with the driver on that occasion.

    Please find enclosed a copy of the signage available on site. All signage has been vetted directly by the IPC as part of their Approved Operator Scheme (“AOS”). In the event that our Client instructs solicitors in respect of this matter, we would confirm that such solicitors would of course comply with all practice directions prior to any claim being issued.

    Yours sincerely

    Robert Stephens
    PCN Parking Solutions

    Any idea what I should do next?

    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Sep 16, 11:04 PM
    • 40,545 Posts
    • 52,434 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Please find enclosed a copy of the signage available on site.
    Please show us the signs. I'd like to see this 'price term' agreed for parking in a way that is prohibited.

    You will need to change http to hxxp (or similarly break the URL to your link to your pics).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • moorerh
    • By moorerh 14th Sep 16, 11:43 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    moorerh
    I will attach the sign, but the photo they have enclosed is not of a sign they have on my site, it is from somewhere else.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Sep 16, 11:47 PM
    • 40,545 Posts
    • 52,434 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Ha! Typical misleading rubbish then.

    Can you show us the one they showed you, and by comparison, your own photos of the real signs?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 15th Sep 16, 9:05 AM
    • 990 Posts
    • 1,732 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    You are not at liberty to have sight of such agreement as there is a clear privity of contract insomuch as the contract between the Operator and the landowner has no bearing on the contract between the Operator and the motorist.
    They appear to have assumed they now have occupier rights and are offering your girlfriends space to you. Ask what consideration are they offering to a "lawful visitor" since there is none.
    General Election coming up? Your MP worried about his/her job? Give them something to do and get them to sort out these parking cowboys. Search "Theyworkforyou" for the name of your MP.
    • moorerh
    • By moorerh 18th Oct 16, 10:39 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    moorerh
    Hi everyone,

    I will post an in depth message tomorrow but I may need some help on this. My girlfriend is getting really worried as a debt collection letter has arrived on her door, and of course the fee has increased. It is from Ultimate Customer Solutions.

    I had perhaps been lazy and thought it would go away but I need to do something now. Can I have any valid fight if she did outstay their 3 hour window? As ridiculous as it is.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 18th Oct 16, 11:12 PM
    • 2,248 Posts
    • 2,731 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    hi , may I please ask if you ever read the newbies thread ?

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

    Debt collectors have less power than a dandelion

    they have NO power they ARE toothless they can do NOTHING except huff and puff

    "I had perhaps been lazy and thought it would go away but I need to do something now."

    re read the thread for advice posted earlier ......


    "Can I have any valid fight if she did outstay their 3 hour window? As ridiculous as it is."

    yes

    carry on

    good luck

    Ralph
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 19th Oct 16, 12:36 PM
    • 990 Posts
    • 1,732 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    What does the lease / tenancy agreement say.

    What you've got to get your head around is the question "whose land". If it is space where residents/tenants have ownership/easements then they cannot have a contract with the residents/tenants or their "lawful visitors". They'd be charging you for using a space to which you were entitled as a visitor.

    If it was an area to which there were no rights then a contract may be formed, but more likely it would be trespass.

    So check the wording of the lease / rental agreement.
    General Election coming up? Your MP worried about his/her job? Give them something to do and get them to sort out these parking cowboys. Search "Theyworkforyou" for the name of your MP.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 16, 1:33 PM
    • 40,545 Posts
    • 52,434 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Who cares about debt collector letters?

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5035663

    Everyone gets them when ignoring a PPC, I've ignored them myself. No-one comes knocking, these 'debt collection' call centres are not bailiffs.

    Ignore the daft threatograms!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 19th Oct 16, 3:07 PM
    • 1,724 Posts
    • 2,372 Thanks
    fisherjim
    ....a debt collection letter has arrived on her door, and of course the fee has increased.

    No it hasn't, the debt collector Muppets are trying to bully you into paying plus their scam charge of £60 for the fun of bullying you by way of silly letters that mean nothing!

    But you would have known this had you looked around this forum
    To quote the words of the great Count Arthur Strong "You Couldn't make it up"
    • moorerh
    • By moorerh 19th Oct 16, 6:28 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    moorerh
    Apologies for making people repeat themselves. I have read the newbies thread but it's all very new to me, I'm a scientist by trade and all this legislation and contracts etc. tend to go over my head!

    There is nothing really in my tenancy agreement with my landlord, I will try and contact the company that own the site tomorrow. As surely they can waive the notice if they so wish?

    So just to clarify, there is nothing they can do to charge my girlfriend more than the original £100 other than win in court and claim court fees? No bailiffs, nothing? (Apologies for banging the drum but I want to reassure her.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 16, 6:40 PM
    • 40,545 Posts
    • 52,434 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Apologies for making people repeat themselves. I have read the newbies thread but it's all very new to me, I'm a scientist by trade and all this legislation and contracts etc. tend to go over my head!

    There is nothing really in my tenancy agreement with my landlord, I will try and contact the company that own the site tomorrow. As surely they can waive the notice if they so wish?

    So just to clarify, there is nothing they can do to charge my girlfriend more than the original £100 other than win in court and claim court fees? No bailiffs, nothing? (Apologies for banging the drum but I want to reassure her.
    Originally posted by moorerh
    You are like my student kids, all scientists, yet I'm a woman of words! None of them understand the stuff I like to write...their eyes glaze over. And I don't really understand what they do!

    No bailiffs. CONFIRMED.

    That can only happen if a person loses in court (either at a hearing or by default if they ignore court papers or move house and miss them) and then doesn't pay.

    As long as you check each letter is merely debt collector drivel, it's all good and normally fizzles out after a few months.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • moorerh
    • By moorerh 19th Oct 16, 6:56 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    moorerh
    Also this is the signage on the site, and the one below is the sign they sent me when they replied to my letter.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9lH8ZsIu_PAVHBuNEFsWmRKT3c

    Just noticed that this doesn't mention the 3 hour limit. I'm sure it is on the site somewhere, I will look tomorrow and put that up too.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9lH8ZsIu_PAUy1iMFFLX2N4b1k
    Last edited by moorerh; 19-10-2016 at 7:04 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 16, 7:50 PM
    • 40,545 Posts
    • 52,434 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Unreadable small print, the entire thing (both signs).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • moorerh
    • By moorerh 21st Oct 16, 1:29 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    moorerh
    UCS are harrassing her on the phone now telling her that the pof act is !!!!!!!! and that she owes them more money because she missed their deadlines.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 21st Oct 16, 1:37 PM
    • 1,009 Posts
    • 918 Thanks
    DoaM
    Tell her to block their number.

    She could also consider writing to them (a real letter) that their calls are unwarranted and are harassing. As such she is giving them formal notice of this harassment as per the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 so they must cease and desist calling her. Failure to do so may lead to a claim against them in the county court for punitive damages pursuant to the Act.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Oct 16, 2:20 PM
    • 40,545 Posts
    • 52,434 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    UCS are harrassing her on the phone now telling her that the pof act is !!!!!!!! and that she owes them more money because she missed their deadlines.
    Originally posted by moorerh
    Can you record them next time - tell them their lies are being recorded and the DVLA will be informed and the parking company are liable for the actions of their agent. And do record them and do complain!

    She can also email or write, stating that she requires any future contact by them or the originating 'client' only to be by letter and referring to the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, as DoaM rightly says.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • moorerh
    • By moorerh 21st Oct 16, 2:35 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    moorerh
    So I rang both UCS and PayMyPCN and informed them that she was willing to pay the initial notice of £100 as that is all she is liable for. They both flat out refused. They're adamant that they can get the extra £60. This is horrible.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 21st Oct 16, 4:07 PM
    • 1,009 Posts
    • 918 Thanks
    DoaM
    You did WHAT!?!?!?! You (she) offered to pay them anything at all!?!?!

    Sheesh! Haven't you read anything people here have advised?
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
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