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  • FIRST POST
    • DiegoFuego
    • By DiegoFuego 4th Aug 16, 12:22 PM
    • 46Posts
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    DiegoFuego
    SCS Law Letter before claim for multiple PCNs-over 1000!!
    • #1
    • 4th Aug 16, 12:22 PM
    SCS Law Letter before claim for multiple PCNs-over 1000!! 4th Aug 16 at 12:22 PM
    Hi all

    A few weeks back I received a letter from SCS Law on behalf of UKPC for multiple PCNs for overstaying in a free car park. The letter claimed to be a letter before claim. The total claim was over 1000 including fees added on per ticket.
    The dates of the PCNs range from early 2015 and one earlier this year.

    I have read the Newbies thread and followed the advice and sent the initial letter to SCS Law as recommended by the thread which tells SCS law that their letter is insufficient according to the Practice Directions. The guidance said to expect a template letter but the letter I received looked tailor made and they also sent a pack containing photos and letters which I didn't expect at all.

    I haven't seen any other advice but I wanted to be sure that the advice in the thread regarding responding to Letters before claim was still up to date (have the practice directions changed for example) and whether to still follow through with the second letter as described or if any of you have any other advice that could help?

    Many many thanks.
Page 5
    • DiegoFuego
    • By DiegoFuego 29th Jun 17, 2:07 PM
    • 46 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DiegoFuego
    Hi. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I do need to submit this as soon as possible and I don't want to do anything majorly wrong at this late stage.

    Thank you.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jun 17, 2:13 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    I think as the circumstances are similar to the Beavis case, you must steer it right away from the overstay allegations and go heavily on unclear signs, so did you have some pics (or did you grab UKPC's own faded/blurred photos from the website under the PCN number?).

    Your second line of attack would be to state you were not served (or don't recall being served) Notice to keeper letters in time, and if they were, then you contend they didn't comply with para 8 of the POFA schedule 4. I think in 2015 the '28 day period from the date after the date given' wasn't properly stated on a UKPC NTK. If it's not complaint and there is no proof of keeper liability, they can't assume you were driving.

    You might want to look at the Parking Prankster's case law page and get Excel v Lamoureux and PACE v Lengyel, and read the transcripts and add them to your evidence, as there are some useful points in those Judge's decisions which may sway your Judge.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DiegoFuego
    • By DiegoFuego 30th Jun 17, 2:16 PM
    • 46 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DiegoFuego
    They sent me some pics in the post and I have taken some of my own as well.

    I will definitely have a look at those transcripts and add them into my case file.

    Are the lines about the NTK letters to be added to my witness statement?

    Is my witness statement fine to send as it is or are there any omissions/mistakes?
    • DiegoFuego
    • By DiegoFuego 1st Jul 17, 1:49 PM
    • 46 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DiegoFuego
    Hi. I have seen some parts of the NTKs are not compliant with POFA 2012. Do I add that to my witness statement?

    And is the rest of my witness statement good to go?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Jul 17, 6:57 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes you should add observations to your WS. Can you re-post the final draft here please?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DiegoFuego
    • By DiegoFuego 1st Jul 17, 9:55 PM
    • 46 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DiegoFuego
    Below is the final (hopefully!) draft of my witness statement:

    I, ., am the defendant in this case.

    1.The facts in this statement come from my personal knowledge. Where they are not within my own knowledge there are true to the best of my information and belief.


    2.I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all and this is my Witness Statement in support of my defence as already filed.


    3. I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question in this case. However due to the long passage of time since the alleged contraventions, I am unable to recall whether I was the driver.


    4. As stated in my defence, the dates in question are unremarkable and I therefore have no recollection of the circumstances surrounding these events.


    5. I recall receiving some letters in the post from the claimant and I ignored them as I believed them to be scam letters due to the excessive amounts being claimed. I felt vindicated in that decision when I received no further letters or contact of any kind from the claimant on this matter.


    6. I was then surprised to receive a letter before claim from the claimants representatives. I did some research into why I may have received this and it seems the claimant and similar parking companies are submitting masses of court claims for old parking charges and are inappropriately using the court system as a form of debt collection.


    7. Despite my inexperience, after a lot of research I found the letter they sent to be insufficient. I requested a new Letter before Claim that was complaint with the Practice Direction and offered to settle the claim using Alternative Dispute Resolution.


    8. A compliant Letter before Claim was not sent to me and my request for Alternative Dispute resolution was rejected for unsatisfactory reasons.


    9. The claimant subsequently sent me a pack of documents that it says it will rely on as evidence. One of the documents is a picture of the sign that it says forms the contract. The sign is mostly a wall of small font text, from which a driver in a vehicle cannot understand and therefore cannot accept the terms of.


    10. The sign does not explicitly explain that a driver would be entering into a contract by the specific act of parking and neither does it clearly state who that contract would be with. This is contrary to BPA guidance. The sign submitted also claims that the charge is 90 and yet the claimant has claimed the sign creates a charge for 100. There is no evidence of any contract creating a charge of 100. Regardless, this part of the sign is in very small text and is therefore illegible.


    11. Many of the documents submitted were photos of the vehicle in the car park. They show the poor lighting in the area and high placement of the signs. It cannot be expected that a driver can be able to read and accept any terms on the signage.


    12. Many of the photos are also of questionable accuracy. Many of the timestamps are illegible and so it cannot be confirmed what time or day they were taken. I am also of the opinion that some of the photos have very similar surroundings despite being claimed to have been taken at different times. Given the history of the claimant for falsifying photo evidence, I do not believe these photos can be relied upon for accuracy.


    13. The copies of the letters that the claimant has claimed were sent to me are not compliant with the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 and therefore cannot claim keeper liability. Firstly, the notices to keeper in relation to the parking charges dated .......... do not identify who the creditor is as required by Paragraph 8(2)(h) of the POFA 2012.

    14. Secondly, all of the notices to keeper issued do not state a specific period of parking that the as required by Paragraph 8(2)(a). Neither do the notices to keeper repeat the relevant information from the notice to driver as required by Paragraph 8(2)(c).

    15. Finally, Paragraph 8(2)(f) requires that any notice to keeper gives 28 days from the day after the day the notice was given for full payment or the details of the driver. All of the notices to keeper issued do state this but they also state that payment must be made within 28 days of the date of the notice, which is conflicting information and not compliant with POFA 2012.


    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.


    Signed..



    Dated
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jul 17, 12:15 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    A few suggested changes (as long as what I have added is true) and you need to file some supporting cases as well:

    3. I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question in this case. However due to the long passage of time since the alleged contraventions, I am unable to recall whether I was the driver. who might have been driving. As the dates cover several years, this could have involved different drivers on each occasion, given that the vehicle was insured with more than one named driver.*

    7. Despite my inexperience, after a lot of research I found the letter they sent to be insufficient. I requested a new Letter before Claim that was complaint with the Practice Direction and offered to enter into settle the claim using Alternative Dispute Resolution in the form of POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals), which can be progressed simply by any British Parking Association AOS member firm providing a code, one per PCN. POPLA place no time restriction on when a POPLA code can be provided, but BPA parking firms unilaterally refuse to provide one in pre-court exchanges, misleading consumers that it is 'too late'.
    9. The claimant subsequently sent me a pack of documents that it says it will rely on as evidence. One of the documents is a picture of the sign that it says forms the contract. The sign is mostly a wall of small font text, from which a driver in a vehicle cannot understand and therefore cannot be deemed to have accepted the terms. of. The dates of the PCNs range from early 2015 and one earlier this year, and in that time it is averred that the signs will have changed, been replaced or updated (to reflect changes in the BPA Code of Practice) and indeed some may have been removed or damaged. There is no evidence that these signs existed throughout the time-span of this claim and it is argued that this operator did not comply with the 'signage' and 'entrance signs' sections of the BPA Code of Practice as it changed between 2015 to date**.
    12. Many of the photos are also of questionable accuracy. Many of the timestamps are illegible and so it cannot be confirmed what time or day they were taken. I am also of the opinion that some of the photos have very similar surroundings despite being claimed to have been taken at different times. Given the history of the claimant for falsifying photo evidence in 2015, around the time of the first PCNs in this claim, I do not believe these photos can be relied upon for accuracy.***


    * attach as evidence, if you can locate them, insurance certs (covering 2015 until the final date) that show more than one driver. This is to show the court that, on the balance of probabilities, the driver was more likely not to have been the same person every time.


    ** attach a copy of relevant 'signs' pages from the BPA CoPs version #5 and #6, pick out the best bits to support your case:
    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Practice-and-compliance-monitoring


    *** attach as evidence, a copy of this Newspaper article:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11858473/Parking-firm-UKPC-admits-faking-tickets-to-fine-drivers.html

    Also attach as evidence:

    - a copy of the Beavis case sign, and add some words to the WS comparing the two:
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/new-popla-staying-cases-to-consider.html

    - a copy of the section of the POPLA Annual Report 2015 about 'Understanding Keeper Liability' and add some words about Henry Greenslade making it clear that a keeper cannot be lawfully presumed to be the driver. Find such posts by searching this board for 'Henry Greenslade presumption'. Find the POPLA 2015 Annual Report by Googling it!

    - a copy of Excel v Lamoureux, to support the above (it's in the Parking Prankster's case law pages as a link to the transcript. You want the transcript and you must read it as well).

    - a copy of PACE v Lengyel, to support several points of your defence (it's in the Parking Prankster's case law pages).


    I love the fact that their signage evidence shows 90, yet they are trying to claim 100. No contract, then.

    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 02-07-2017 at 12:18 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DiegoFuego
    • By DiegoFuego 3rd Jul 17, 11:26 PM
    • 46 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DiegoFuego
    Does anyone have the contact email address for Ukpc??
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Jul 17, 11:33 PM
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    • 63,365 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    appealmoreinfo@ekparkingcontrol.com

    ...is the only one I know.

    But unless you are emailing to rattle their cage and encourage Shirley & co. to drop the baseless claim, you don't need it. You are dealing with SCS Law, their solicitors and that's who gets a copy of everything filed to the court.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DiegoFuego
    • By DiegoFuego 3rd Jul 17, 11:41 PM
    • 46 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DiegoFuego
    Thank you.

    And SCS Law email is info@scs-law.co.uk? Or do they have a more official one they use?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Jul 17, 11:42 PM
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    • 63,365 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No idea, all you can do is look at their letters to you and quote their 'ref' and the claim number.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • gill33uk
    • By gill33uk 13th Jul 17, 9:37 AM
    • 54 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    gill33uk
    Directions Questionnaire
    Hi, just filing mine in, can it be done via email or is it hard copy only on this occasion? Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jul 17, 3:49 PM
    • 49,972 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Email is fine AFAIK.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DiegoFuego
    • By DiegoFuego 15th Jul 17, 9:01 AM
    • 46 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DiegoFuego
    Morning all

    Just a few questions before my court date next week.

    Firstly, I have seen mentioned that I should take my case file and wrap it in something red? I don't fully understand the significance of that.

    Secondly, I have seen mentioned that someone may approach me to hand me files before I enter the courtroom. What am I meant to I in that scenario and should I mention that it happened in the hearing?

    Lastly, are the any other tips or things that I should do or look out for on the day?

    Many thanks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Jul 17, 9:28 AM
    • 14,523 Posts
    • 22,847 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    There used to be advice that you tie your bundle with a red ribbon side to side and top to bottom to prevent anyone slipping anything into it without your knowledge. That advice was debunked by 'bargepole' (court expert in private parking cases) and others with similar experience, and it is no longer given.

    The current advice is to politely decline any offer of paperwork from the other side in the waiting room. There's a strong possibility they are handing you something prejudicial to your case and beneficial to theirs, arguing that as you have it in your hand, you obviously know what it's about and have not contested it. Don't fall for that one!

    Tips (not that they're coming from someone of great court experience) - I'd treat it in the same way as you would a job interview - call me old fashioned - but jacket/suit and tie, polished shoes, good shave.

    Prepare well, no last minute cramming (scrambles the brain), have the main headline points of your defence clearly etched in your mind.

    Be polite, listen to the judge, listen to the claimant's representative without interruption (make notes of anything you might want to raise about anything they say). They go first, you follow.

    Take 3 copies (your own and one for the judge, one for the claimant in case they don't have it to hand) of your bundle. The bundle should be indexed and paginated.

    Have you included your costs schedule with your Witness Statement? If not, make sure you take one with you to cover loss of earnings (or loss of a day's annual leave) to attend the court. 95 is the maximum allowed, take pay slips to confirm the level of your daily earnings.

    Your return mileage (0.45ppm) or transport costs to the court, any car park charges for the day (obviously they'd have to be added in at the time). You could try a couple of hours for research and work to develop your defence (19ph litigant in person rate), but be prepared for the judge to disallow this, many do. You could also include a small amount for stationery and postage - don't over-egg it.

    There's an example of a costs schedule in post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky.

    All of above comes from my reading of previous advice from much more court-savvy advisers here and on other parking forums, and reading feedback from posters who've actually gone through the court process

    I wish you good luck. Please do come back and let us know how it goes.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jul 17, 12:18 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    All good advice from Umkomaas.

    The only other thing to read up on is 'Rights of Audience' and asking the Judge to question the other side's right to speak! Search 'Gazette' on this forum to find lots of posts about that, with the BMPA's help at the end of a text beforehand, you can stop the hearing in its tracks on the spot...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DiegoFuego
    • By DiegoFuego 17th Jul 17, 5:21 PM
    • 46 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    DiegoFuego
    I won the case!

    Thanks everyone for your help. It was a very long process but I'm glad it's finally over and part of me is glad I've gone through it.

    Only disappointment is that the judge refused to award me costs but overall I'm very happy!

    Thanks to everyone who contributed, especially coupon-mad who also took the time to edit my submissions. So very grateful!
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 17th Jul 17, 5:35 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    Well done. Any tips?
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 17th Jul 17, 5:40 PM
    • 14,523 Posts
    • 22,847 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Well done you! Great result.

    Once you've had a spirit lifting glass, any chance you could give us a more detailed run down of the day? Like location of Court, name of judge, who the other side fielded, what was said by who (in general terms), on what point(s) did the judge find in your favour, was it a generally friendly hearing or did things get a touch fractious, how was the judge's attitude towards you and towards the other side?

    All these help us better understand the workings of various courts/judges and helps give confidence to those who will inevitably follow you down the same path in the not too distant future.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Jul 17, 6:57 PM
    • 49,972 Posts
    • 63,365 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Great news!

    When you have calmed down, please post a court report here, pour encourager les autres.

    Newbies like to read about what it was like, from when you arrived, how you felt, what was said.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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