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  • FIRST POST
    jamesd
    P2P: Lendy, formerly called Saving Stream (AKA SavingStream)
    • #1
    • 2nd Aug 16, 7:32 PM
    P2P: Lendy, formerly called Saving Stream (AKA SavingStream) 2nd Aug 16 at 7:32 PM
    This is a discussion for things specific to the Lendy peer to peer lending platform, formerly called Saving Stream, to make it easier to find those as distinct from more general P2P discussions.

    Lendy typically does the ubiquitous property development loans seen in the P2P world at the moment. Interest rates were typically 12% but these days seem priced to attract the money needed based on size rather than risk. All loans are secured on some sort of physical asset.

    TOPICS: generic P2P, Ablrate, Lendy (formerly Saving Stream), MoneyThing.
    Last edited by jamesd; 13-04-2017 at 1:18 PM. Reason: Add rebrand to Lendy for P2P investing to title and post, update interest rates/risk description
Page 5
    • george4064
    • By george4064 16th Mar 17, 9:14 PM
    • 743 Posts
    • 789 Thanks
    george4064
    I am interested to know where you are moving your money to from SS?
    "If you arenít willing to own a stock for ten years, donít even think about owning it for ten minutesĒ Warren Buffett

    Save £12k in 2016 - #045 £10,358.81/£12,000 (86%)
    Save £12k in 2017 - #003 £6,131.58/£12,000 (51%)
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 16th Mar 17, 10:15 PM
    • 2,305 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    JohnRo
    If you're asking me, it's going into a cash account until April then into my ISA or unwrapped investments at some point.

    I may look at adding something like RDL (despite the Argon fiasco) to the income portfolio's specialist list at some point but for now I'm more comfortable with cash and run of the mill global equities with all their inherent risks.
    'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.' ― Albert Einstein
    'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.' ― Aldous Huxley
    • taylornj
    • By taylornj 21st Mar 17, 12:28 PM
    • 147 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    taylornj
    Placing this as a template, updated with today's data

    Code:
    Asset Details        % Book       Asset value        Loan Value    % pa     LTV
      
    In Default            4.54%    £11,790,000.00     £8,051,500.00   12.00%  68.29%
    
    Interest Accruing     8.90%    £24,480,000.00    £15,797,000.00   12.00%  64.53%
    
    Interest Serviced    12.26%    £42,195,000.00    £21,749,750.00   12.00%  51.55%
    
    Interest on Account  74.30%   £309,218,433.00   £131,850,153.00   11.66%  42.64%
    loans in SBL (interest serviced) set to increase by £8,609,357.00 within the next ten days, that will move the percentage of loans on the book at that point, in some form of default, to over twenty eight and a half percent of total.

    If anyone wants a column type added just ask.

    --
    I've managed to get down to my last £150 pending sale on SM before withdrawal.
    Originally posted by JohnRo
    Those numbers look suspect.

    Over the weekend two SBL loans of over £8m were paid off PBL035, PBL073, and a new loan DFL019 of £7m went live, so the total should be down by £1m, yet the total remains unchanged, in fact your IOA interest on account remains unchanged by a new £7m loan. When did you do this?

    Either the numbers aren't current enough or the methods used are wrong, but you say it's today, maybe F9 refresh is needed.
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 21st Mar 17, 12:35 PM
    • 2,305 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    JohnRo
    I'll check and amend as necessary, thanks. Won't happen again

    Code:
    Asset Details        % Book       Asset value        Loan Value    % pa     LTV
      
    In Default            4.57%    £11,790,000.00     £8,051,500.00   12.00%  68.29%
    
    Interest Accruing     8.97%    £24,480,000.00    £15,797,000.00   12.00%  64.53%
    
    Interest Serviced     7.78%    £25,770,000.00    £13,709,750.00   12.00%  53.20%
    
    Interest on Account  78.68%   £339,052,433.00   £138,620,649.00   11.10%  40.88%
    
    Loan Book Total     100.00%   £401,092,433.00   £176,178,899.00   11.29%  43.92%
    Last edited by JohnRo; 21-03-2017 at 2:14 PM.
    'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.' ― Albert Einstein
    'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.' ― Aldous Huxley
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 21st Mar 17, 7:46 PM
    • 8,944 Posts
    • 5,685 Thanks
    bigadaj
    It's an interesting business model, assuming that they are generating 0.5% per month on the good loans, and funding ten defaulted loans from this then they currently have around half of their income going in servicing investors, actually since they aren't paying interest on defaulted loans and interest accruing it's quite a bit less.

    They have a good turnover of loans which is a possible but it is all property related so lacks diversity for some.

    Their valuations are sometimes questioned as being overly generous, with a suggestion that some loans are close to market value, if not above, and some loads may have second charges and ownership questions.

    There's no doubt it's a quick way to get into secured p2p lending on both teh primary and secondary market but there appear to be a lot of loans that hit problems at some point.
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 21st Mar 17, 8:03 PM
    • 2,305 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    JohnRo
    I'm not writing them off completely, I like the website and the investment model quite a lot. I think it's the due diligence part of the equation that's been lacking.

    They're trying to improve the banking side of things as well which is always welcome and wasn't terrible anyway.

    I just decided it's probably prudent to withdraw funds for now and give it a few months. See how they cope getting over this hurdle of what is starting to look like a mounting catalogue of potential defaults, which are bound to have accumulating costs even if they're not being serviced by Lendy.

    This year should see them prove whether it can work long term or not.
    'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.' ― Albert Einstein
    'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.' ― Aldous Huxley
    • nushnush
    • By nushnush 21st Mar 17, 8:53 PM
    • 70 Posts
    • 42 Thanks
    nushnush
    another loan has just repaid in full.
    • masonic
    • By masonic 21st Mar 17, 9:20 PM
    • 9,126 Posts
    • 6,262 Thanks
    masonic
    While it is nice to see that at least a few of the loans are being repaid without issue, and that there is now greater transparency over the status of the loans, I still think the elephant in the room is the proportion of loans in difficulties and that proportion isn't going to be improved by good loans redeeming. Fortunately there has been a net expansion of the loan book during this period.

    Since the greater transparency measures were introduced, there has not (to my knowledge) been a single loan that was in interest arrears where the borrower has resumed interest payments. That leaves me with very little doubt that in most cases they are heading for formal default and recovery.

    Now that we have this transparency, we can easily see if and when there are signs of improvement.
    • Dan83
    • By Dan83 21st Mar 17, 11:35 PM
    • 638 Posts
    • 257 Thanks
    Dan83
    For me, the biggest down side to saving stream is the variable interest rate. When I first joined everything was 12%. Recently I have seen as low as 7%.

    I have been slowly selling loans that are with-in 50 days of their end date and putting the money into collateral, money thing and funding secure.

    I've been using collateral for a while and the loans seem to come at once, then nothing for a while. Moneything seems to have dried up loan wise. I get loads of emails from funding secure, I've not long joined and I'm still not 100% on how much I want to put in. The main draw back to funding secure for me is the interest, it's not paid monthly, it's paid at the end of the term.
    • taylornj
    • By taylornj 21st Mar 17, 11:39 PM
    • 147 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    taylornj
    Since the greater transparency measures were introduced, there has not (to my knowledge) been a single loan that was in interest arrears where the borrower has resumed interest payments. That leaves me with very little doubt that in most cases they are heading for formal default and recovery.
    Originally posted by masonic
    I refer you to PBL006, and PBL035.

    PBL035 which was repaid over the weekend. This has been rolled over into DFL019, which is a larger loan and with a positive term, so is now paying interest.

    Depends on your view point if this counts or not.

    PBL035, PBL073, PBL105 have all been overruns in interest arrears, and would have paid off the loan value plus any in arrears interest. You can't just ignore these there needs to be at least the smallest amount of credit given.

    PBL006 had gone from IA to IOA with a term of 27days left now down to 8days. So that's at least 90 + 27days interest, not sure how far below -90 days PBL006 had gone. I'd have to check through the full history of this one, I think it has to count.
    • masonic
    • By masonic 22nd Mar 17, 6:22 AM
    • 9,126 Posts
    • 6,262 Thanks
    masonic
    I refer you to PBL006, and PBL035.

    PBL035, PBL073, PBL105 have all been overruns in interest arrears, and would have paid off the loan value plus any in arrears interest. You can't just ignore these there needs to be at least the smallest amount of credit given.
    Originally posted by taylornj
    Thanks. I was going on information in this thread, where the positive change to PBL006 was not mentioned, but you are correct that status updates at SS confirm interest arrears, plus a sum to extend by 1 month has been received. So at least there is one example of a loan that was well past due being serviced by the borrower.

    PBL035, PBL073, PBL105 are not loans I would class as in interest arrears, because they were all less than one month past due date when they redeemed (I do see the status of PBL035 did move from IOA->SBL briefly during this month).
    Last edited by masonic; 22-03-2017 at 6:40 AM.
    • masonic
    • By masonic 22nd Mar 17, 6:32 AM
    • 9,126 Posts
    • 6,262 Thanks
    masonic
    The main draw back to funding secure for me is the interest, it's not paid monthly, it's paid at the end of the term.
    Originally posted by Dan83
    That's not really a drawback once you've been lending there for 6 months, as you'll get a steady stream of interest payments as loans start to redeem/renew, albeit after a period in limbo in many cases.
    Last edited by masonic; 22-03-2017 at 6:41 AM.
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 28th Mar 17, 2:15 PM
    • 2,305 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    JohnRo
    Code:
    Asset Details        % Book       Asset value        Loan Value    % pa     LTV
      
    In Default            4.57%    £11,790,000.00     £8,051,500.00   12.00%  68.29%
    
    Interest Accruing     8.97%    £24,480,000.00    £15,797,000.00   12.00%  64.53%
    
    Interest Serviced     7.50%    £30,305,000.00    £15,976,107.00   12.00%  52.72%
    
    Interest on Account  78.96%   £333,817,433.00   £136,356,082.00   11.08%  40.85%
    
    Loan Book Total     100.00%   £400,392,433.00   £176,180,689.00   11.29%  44.00%
    'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.' ― Albert Einstein
    'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.' ― Aldous Huxley
    • mr._prude
    • By mr._prude 28th Mar 17, 3:48 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    mr._prude
    Does this mean 20.97% of their loans are in some form of difficulty?

    I take it,
    Default means property is being repossessed and sold to recover loan?
    Interest accruing means loan is not being serviced at all?
    Interest serviced means only interest is being serviced on loan?
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 28th Mar 17, 4:28 PM
    • 2,305 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    JohnRo
    Yes, that's correct.

    As someone who wants to see the platform succeed but has now withdrawn all money at this stage, the concern is how Lendy can continue to do this without going under, unless they keep the pipeline stoked, which doesn't appear to be happening.

    There are a couple of large loans and some smaller within 8 days of their contract deadline, which will push the number of loans in some form of default above 27% if they do exceed their term.

    The problem is if that does happen, which may not, then the interest paying loans drop to just over 72% of the book. It's enough to keep things going but the current trajectory is not looking very promising.

    That's not to say they will default of course but it shows how precarious things are getting imho.
    'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.' ― Albert Einstein
    'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.' ― Aldous Huxley
    • economic
    • By economic 28th Mar 17, 4:55 PM
    • 1,380 Posts
    • 618 Thanks
    economic
    i still have £100 in there waiting to be sold on PBL081. luckily sold out the rest and withdrew my cash. how long will it take to get the £100 sold and out?
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 28th Mar 17, 4:56 PM
    • 8,944 Posts
    • 5,685 Thanks
    bigadaj
    Does this mean 20.97% of their loans are in some form of difficulty?

    I take it,
    Default means property is being repossessed and sold to recover loan?
    Interest accruing means loan is not being serviced at all?
    Interest serviced means only interest is being serviced on loan?
    Originally posted by mr._prude
    Default means the legal process is at least starting.

    Interest accruing means that no interest is being paid, so if you have that loan then you're not receiving anything but may get that interest paid once the security is sold in the future if there is sufficient funds.

    Interest serviced means that the platform is paying the interest, not the borrower.

    As far as I'm aware they don't have any amortising loans so interest is only ever being repaid and the capital is due at the end of the loan term.
  • jamesd
    It's worth knowing that it isn't that unusual for property development loans to over-run. The borrowers at Saving Stream have an incentive to be too optimistic because they pay interest up front
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 28th Mar 17, 5:19 PM
    • 2,305 Posts
    • 2,046 Thanks
    JohnRo
    The interesting thing I'm keen to watch over the next few months is going to be how much Lendy are able to recover from those loans declared 'legally in default' if that's the correct term.

    I foresee some quite severe haircuts even with the 70% LTV cap.

    Of the £15.8M loans currently accruing interest, all are over 100 days into their IA status and a couple are now within a week of official default.
    'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.' ― Albert Einstein
    'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.' ― Aldous Huxley
    • masonic
    • By masonic 28th Mar 17, 6:44 PM
    • 9,126 Posts
    • 6,262 Thanks
    masonic
    We're soon going to need a change of thread title jamesd, if that's possible. FCA is not allowing Lendy to use "SavingStream" any more.
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