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  • FIRST POST
    jamesd
    P2P: Lendy, formerly called Saving Stream (AKA SavingStream)
    • #1
    • 2nd Aug 16, 7:32 PM
    P2P: Lendy, formerly called Saving Stream (AKA SavingStream) 2nd Aug 16 at 7:32 PM
    This is a discussion for things specific to the Lendy peer to peer lending platform, formerly called Saving Stream, to make it easier to find those as distinct from more general P2P discussions.

    Lendy typically does the ubiquitous property development loans seen in the P2P world at the moment. Interest rates were typically 12% but these days seem priced to attract the money needed based on size rather than risk. All loans are secured on some sort of physical asset.

    TOPICS: generic P2P, Ablrate, Lendy (formerly Saving Stream), MoneyThing.
    Last edited by jamesd; 13-04-2017 at 1:18 PM. Reason: Add rebrand to Lendy for P2P investing to title and post, update interest rates/risk description
Page 4
    • masonic
    • By masonic 4th Mar 17, 8:46 PM
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    • 6,271 Thanks
    masonic
    agree. is the interest out of the fund provision? imagine a large loan like this. can wipe out a lot of the provision fund. very risky platform. much better P2P platforms out there.
    Originally posted by economic
    The information that I've seen is the interest payments have been funded out of working capital, not the provision fund.

    However, the provision fund has just paid out about £400k to compensate investors in PBL020 when the security valued at £2.4m sold for £1.3m and failed to cover the £1.7m loan. They also paid 9 months of interest, valued at £153k, presumably out of their own capital, and receiver/admin costs of £170k.
    • economic
    • By economic 4th Mar 17, 8:57 PM
    • 1,580 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    economic
    The information that I've seen is the interest payments have been funded out of working capital, not the provision fund.

    However, the provision fund has just paid out about £400k to compensate investors in PBL020 when the security valued at £2.4m sold for £1.3m and failed to cover the £1.7m loan. They also paid 9 months of interest, valued at £153k, presumably out of their own capital, and receiver/admin costs of £170k.
    Originally posted by masonic
    sold for just under £1m less then valued??? if this becomes more frequent then the provision fund and working capital will be wiped out..... they will proabbly as lenders to take a hit before depleting the fund completely (to spread it out).
    Last edited by economic; 04-03-2017 at 9:00 PM.
    • masonic
    • By masonic 4th Mar 17, 9:01 PM
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    masonic
    sold for just under £1m less then valued??? paying all this out of their own capital as well? if this happens often there wont be a platform anymore.
    Originally posted by economic
    Yes and this was the loan jamesd mentioned where they had 10% ownership of the company borrowing the money.
    • economic
    • By economic 4th Mar 17, 9:07 PM
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    • 737 Thanks
    economic
    Yes and this was the loan jamesd mentioned where they had 10% ownership of the company borrowing the money.
    Originally posted by masonic
    haha very dodgy indeed! i wonder how many people realise this is going on. i wonder how many people have withdrawn all their money from them because of this.
  • jamesd
    That loan was under old terms where consumers lent to Saving Stream and they then lent to the borrower. If I recall correctly the purchase prices for the two properties involved were registered at the Land Registry for a total of about £1.45 million shortly before the higher valuation was given.

    The differences between how the loan was described in the promotion to lenders and the apparent facts is what initially caused me to decide that the descriptions couldn't be relied upon and to abandon my plans to use this platform.

    I'm glad that Saving Stream have repaid all of the money that they borrowed but that doesn't do anything to help with the description issues.

    Note that new loans there are not first to the Saving Stream platform, don't have their corporate guarantee as this one originally did and also don't have the undertaking to pay interest in default that this one had.
    Last edited by jamesd; 04-03-2017 at 9:15 PM.
    • masonic
    • By masonic 4th Mar 17, 9:28 PM
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    masonic
    I'm glad that Saving Stream have repaid all of the money that they borrowed but that doesn't do anything to help with the description issues.

    Note that new loans there are not first to the Saving Stream platform, don't have their corporate guarantee as this one originally did and also don't have the undertaking to pay interest in default that this one had.
    Originally posted by jamesd
    I completely agree, and I think this loan was a special case because SS was vulnerable to legal challenge if any investor suffered a loss, given the misrepresentations in the loan particulars. SS maintained that the old terms did not preclude them passing on losses to investors if the sale of the security did not cover all of the capital, so loans made under the old terms are not any safer than the newer loans IMHO.
    Last edited by masonic; 04-03-2017 at 9:30 PM.
    • masonic
    • By masonic 4th Mar 17, 9:45 PM
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    masonic
    This will be a very useful resource for those still involved with the platform:
    http://p2pindependentforum.com/thread/8133/ss-negative-term-watch

    A little under 25% of SavingStream's entire loan book is currently in arrears.
    • agent69
    • By agent69 5th Mar 17, 10:57 AM
    • 180 Posts
    • 86 Thanks
    agent69
    A little under 25% of SavingStream's entire loan book is currently in arrears.
    Originally posted by masonic
    But that doesn't stop people queuing up to buy them on the SM.
    • economic
    • By economic 5th Mar 17, 11:05 AM
    • 1,580 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    economic
    But that doesn't stop people queuing up to buy them on the SM.
    Originally posted by agent69


    people are desperate for fixed interest. I think they mis-price the loans. given the large number of loans in arrears already 12% may not look attractive anymore. Explain that to the average joe lender. I bet most don't even read the details/particulaurs/valuation reports. I know I didn't.
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 16th Mar 17, 12:49 PM
    • 2,354 Posts
    • 2,086 Thanks
    JohnRo
    Figures pulled from spreadsheet for those interested.

    By my reckoning SBL interest (at 1% a month) is costing Lendy just under a quarter of a million quid a month as it stands currently. Alarm bells are ringing.

    Code:
    Asset Details       Drawn  Asset value      Loan Value       % pa    LTV
      
    In Default          Yes    £11,410,000.00   £7,785,500.00    12.00%  68.23%
    
    Interest Accruing   Yes    £19,610,000.00   £13,123,000.00   12.00%  66.92%
    
    Interest Serviced   Yes    £47,445,000.00   £24,689,750.00   12.00%  52.04%
    
    Interest on Account Yes    £309,218,433.00  £131,850,153.00  11.66%  42.64%
    I can keep posting updates every few weeks or months if folks are interested.
    'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.' ― Albert Einstein
    'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.' ― Aldous Huxley
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 16th Mar 17, 6:31 PM
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    bigadaj
    Figures pulled from spreadsheet for those interested.

    By my reckoning SBL interest (at 1% a month) is costing Lendy just under a quarter of a million quid a month as it stands currently. Alarm bells are ringing.

    Code:
    Asset Details       Drawn  Asset value      Loan Value       % pa    LTV
      
    In Default          Yes    £11,410,000.00   £7,785,500.00    12.00%  68.23%
    
    Interest Accruing   Yes    £19,610,000.00   £13,123,000.00   12.00%  66.92%
    
    Interest Serviced   Yes    £47,445,000.00   £24,689,750.00   12.00%  52.04%
    
    Interest on Account Yes    £309,218,433.00  £131,850,153.00  11.66%  42.64%
    I can keep posting updates every few weeks or months if folks are interested.
    Originally posted by JohnRo
    Things don't look good to me but they have the advantage of a very active loan book, with many other platforms either having infrequent deals or low sums.

    Assuming they are taking 0.5% a month in the currently serviced loans then taht would be enough to subsidise the default interest currently.

    Defaults so far have been covered by provision fund andor sale of security, soemthing will defeat soon with investor loss of capital and it'll be interesting to see how hat is handled.
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 16th Mar 17, 6:39 PM
    • 2,354 Posts
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    JohnRo
    Indeed, it's just that the trend appears to show the value of loans soft defaulting and passing through three months of SBL on their way to IA are set to increase significantly over the next few months so unless the pipeline is kept well stoked things could start to unravel quite quickly there.

    Especially with any protracted recovery and legal costs on what look to me like massively inflated valuations in quite a few cases.
    'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.' ― Albert Einstein
    'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.' ― Aldous Huxley
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 16th Mar 17, 6:45 PM
    • 54,318 Posts
    • 47,107 Thanks
    Thrugelmir

    Assuming they are taking 0.5% a month in the currently serviced loans then taht would be enough to subsidise the default interest currently.
    Originally posted by bigadaj
    Business has operating costs. What do the Directors draw as remuneration?
    “ “Bull markets are born on pessimism, grow on skepticism, mature on optimism, and die on euphoria. The time of maximum pessimism is the best time to buy, and the time of maximum optimism is the best time to sell.” Sir John Marks Templeton
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 16th Mar 17, 7:12 PM
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    JohnRo
    I just looked at the sheet again, within the next 99 days there are £45,855,098 worth of loans, on assets valued at £89,980,000, that could potentially enter SBL.

    That's getting on for half a million quid a month. It would also, as things currently stand reduce the interest paying loans on the book by approximately one third.

    I've whittle my exposure down to just over three grand from eight grand with them over this month so far and have decided to try and get out completely before the new tax year starts.
    Last edited by JohnRo; 16-03-2017 at 7:29 PM.
    'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.' ― Albert Einstein
    'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.' ― Aldous Huxley
    • masonic
    • By masonic 16th Mar 17, 7:19 PM
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    masonic
    By my reckoning SBL interest (at 1% a month) is costing Lendy just under a quarter of a million quid a month as it stands currently. Alarm bells are ringing.
    Originally posted by JohnRo
    I wouldn't be at all surprised if this practice stopped when it comes under the scrutiny of the FCA. P2P firms are already banned from using their own capital to invest in loans. It would seem a natural extension to prohibit them from using their own capital to service loan interest. Perhaps the provision fund will be used to cover interest in the future, in which case there will be less protection for recovery shortfalls.
    • masonic
    • By masonic 16th Mar 17, 7:22 PM
    • 9,126 Posts
    • 6,271 Thanks
    masonic
    I just looked at the sheet again, within the next 99 days there are £45,855,098 worth of loans, on assets valued at $89,980,000, that could potentially enter SBL.
    Originally posted by JohnRo
    I like the creative use of currency symbols. If those are SS dollars, I wonder what the assets are really worth
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 16th Mar 17, 7:28 PM
    • 2,354 Posts
    • 2,086 Thanks
    JohnRo
    oh flippin eck
    'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.' ― Albert Einstein
    'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.' ― Aldous Huxley
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 16th Mar 17, 8:02 PM
    • 9,348 Posts
    • 5,977 Thanks
    bigadaj
    I just looked at the sheet again, within the next 99 days there are £45,855,098 worth of loans, on assets valued at £89,980,000, that could potentially enter SBL.

    That's getting on for half a million quid a month. It would also, as things currently stand reduce the interest paying loans on the book by approximately one third.

    I've whittle my exposure down to just over three grand from eight grand with them over this month so far and have decided to try and get out completely before the new tax year starts.
    Originally posted by JohnRo
    I had a few thousand in until a couple of weeks ago, things seemed to be heading downhill so I've cashed out.

    A read in the p2p forum shows how many people are selling out well ahead of redemption, it has the air of a scheme with the bottom layer presumably made up of more naive people chasing returns without being too concerned about the risk of capital loss.

    By the above I don't opign any sort of illegality or fraud, simply that it appears to be unsustainable in the medium term.
    • JohnRo
    • By JohnRo 16th Mar 17, 8:05 PM
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    JohnRo
    If they can keep new pipeline loans rolling in I dare say they'll weather the storm but the new loans would need to be a heck of a lot less default prone than the current crop seem to be.
    'We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.' ― Albert Einstein
    'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.' ― Aldous Huxley
    • Turtle
    • By Turtle 16th Mar 17, 8:12 PM
    • 937 Posts
    • 2,520 Thanks
    Turtle
    Just put all mine up for sale (not much by most standards but I still wouldn't want to lose it), been nervous for a few days. Most of it has gone already and I'll put a withdrawal request in before I go to bed. Hopefully only be a few hundred quid left by then.

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