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  • FIRST POST
    • Gemsi110
    • By Gemsi110 28th Jul 16, 8:23 PM
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    Gemsi110
    Buying a house without a party wall agreement
    • #1
    • 28th Jul 16, 8:23 PM
    Buying a house without a party wall agreement 28th Jul 16 at 8:23 PM
    Advice needed! I'm buying a house,semi detached, in the sellers pack they disclosed that the neighbouring property attached a garage to the garage wall of the property im buying without consent or agreement. This happened over 20 years ago and now the adjoining property has a legal right to easement. We want to potentially extend the garage and property. The vendors have stated they won't produce an official deed for us as the neighbours have legal rights, they will just supply indemnity insurance. Can this issue cause us problems when wanting to change / extend the house we are buying?
Page 1
    • anselld
    • By anselld 28th Jul 16, 9:42 PM
    • 5,251 Posts
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    anselld
    • #2
    • 28th Jul 16, 9:42 PM
    • #2
    • 28th Jul 16, 9:42 PM
    Any new application for change/ extension will start fresh on the basis of what is there now. What happened 20 years ago cannot be undone so it is irrelevant to what you are trying to change in future.

    Indemnity Insurance would be pointless. What risk is being indemnified?
    • G_M
    • By G_M 28th Jul 16, 10:04 PM
    • 40,500 Posts
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    G_M
    • #3
    • 28th Jul 16, 10:04 PM
    • #3
    • 28th Jul 16, 10:04 PM
    A Party Wall Agreement is a specific document required by the Party Wall Act which should be drawn up prior to works on a Party Wall. It is not however legally required, and there is no come-back if it is ignored.

    The only option open to a neighbour if a PWA is not created before work begins is to obtain a court order forcing the neighbour to stop work.

    Once work is complete the Act is redundant.

    The garage that the neighbours built is now a fait acomplis. The vendors could have taken action 20 years ago, but not now.

    similarly, if the garage was built without Planning Permission, or Building Regs (if either were required), after 20 years it is too late for the council to take action.

    That just leaves your plan to extend. You would need

    * Planning Permission (unless it fell within the definition of 'Permitted Development'

    * Building Regulations certification

    * a Party Wall Agreemet, if you were building on (or nearly on) the property boundary (or the neighbour could get an order for your work to stop)

    https://www.gov.uk/topic/housing/party-walls

    https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200187/your_responsibilities/37/planning_permission/2

    http://planningguidance.communities.gov.uk/blog/guidance/ensuring-effective-enforcement/planning-enforcement-overview/
    Last edited by G_M; 28-07-2016 at 10:07 PM.
    • Gemsi110
    • By Gemsi110 29th Jul 16, 8:52 AM
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    Gemsi110
    • #4
    • 29th Jul 16, 8:52 AM
    • #4
    • 29th Jul 16, 8:52 AM
    Any new application for change/ extension will start fresh on the basis of what is there now. What happened 20 years ago cannot be undone so it is irrelevant to what you are trying to change in future.

    Indemnity Insurance would be pointless. What risk is being indemnified?
    Originally posted by anselld

    This is what the sellers solicitors are offering. We would prefer a deed if we want to extend about the garage we would need permission to unattach her garage roof from our wall now the party wall and then reattach. We wanted this is writing that we can do that.
    • Gemsi110
    • By Gemsi110 29th Jul 16, 8:55 AM
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    Gemsi110
    • #5
    • 29th Jul 16, 8:55 AM
    • #5
    • 29th Jul 16, 8:55 AM
    A Party Wall Agreement is a specific document required by the Party Wall Act which should be drawn up prior to works on a Party Wall. It is not however legally required, and there is no come-back if it is ignored.

    The only option open to a neighbour if a PWA is not created before work begins is to obtain a court order forcing the neighbour to stop work.

    Once work is complete the Act is redundant.

    The garage that the neighbours built is now a fait acomplis. The vendors could have taken action 20 years ago, but not now.

    similarly, if the garage was built without Planning Permission, or Building Regs (if either were required), after 20 years it is too late for the council to take action.

    That just leaves your plan to extend. You would need

    * Planning Permission (unless it fell within the definition of 'Permitted Development'

    * Building Regulations certification

    * a Party Wall Agreemet, if you were building on (or nearly on) the property boundary (or the neighbour could get an order for your work to stop
    Originally posted by G_M
    Can a party wall stop you from converting the garage or extending of the neighbour complains?
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 29th Jul 16, 8:56 AM
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    AnotherJoe
    • #6
    • 29th Jul 16, 8:56 AM
    • #6
    • 29th Jul 16, 8:56 AM
    This is what the sellers solicitors are offering. We would prefer a deed if we want to extend about the garage we would need permission to unattach her garage roof from our wall now the party wall and then reattach. We wanted this is writing that we can do that.
    Originally posted by Gemsi110
    That isn't in the gift of your vendors to offer, it's not their garage you are discussing ! Unless you can get a signed agreement made up with the neighbours (for which they would I imagine want paying) before exchanging contracts, I suggest you look at buying a different house.
    • Gemsi110
    • By Gemsi110 29th Jul 16, 9:07 AM
    • 13 Posts
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    Gemsi110
    • #7
    • 29th Jul 16, 9:07 AM
    • #7
    • 29th Jul 16, 9:07 AM
    That isn't in the gift of your vendors to offer, it's not their garage you are discussing ! Unless you can get a signed agreement made up with the neighbours (for which they would I imagine want paying) before exchanging contracts, I suggest you look at buying a different house.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    It is there garage. The property next door attached there garage roof to our wall
    • teneighty
    • By teneighty 29th Jul 16, 9:43 AM
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    teneighty
    • #8
    • 29th Jul 16, 9:43 AM
    • #8
    • 29th Jul 16, 9:43 AM
    I think you are worrying about this unnecessarily.

    I assume you own the wall in question and it is built on your side of the boundary. It has however become a party wall by enclosure by virtue of the fact that the neighbour has built a new garage using the existing wall as one side of the building.

    You can still do whatever you like with your wall, the only complication is that you have to go through the formal "consultation" process with the neighbour. In theory you could demolish the wall if you wanted and the neighbour could not stop you provided you erected the necessary alternative support and weather protection to their garage.
    • Gemsi110
    • By Gemsi110 29th Jul 16, 9:45 AM
    • 13 Posts
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    Gemsi110
    • #9
    • 29th Jul 16, 9:45 AM
    • #9
    • 29th Jul 16, 9:45 AM
    I think you are worrying about this unnecessarily.

    I assume you own the wall in question and it is built on your side of the boundary. It has however become a party wall by enclosure by virtue of the fact that the neighbour has built a new garage using the existing wall as one side of the building.

    You can still do whatever you like with your wall, the only complication is that you have to go through the formal "consultation" process with the neighbour. In theory you could demolish the wall if you wanted and the neighbour could not stop you provided you erected the necessary alternative support and weather protection to their garage.
    Originally posted by teneighty
    The vendor believes the wall is on his side but we think it looks like it's on the boundary
    • teneighty
    • By teneighty 29th Jul 16, 10:14 AM
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    teneighty
    If the wall was built astride the boundary then it has always been a party wall and the neighbour was perfectly entitled to use in for their garage.

    The fact remains that as a party wall you and your neighbour have rights to make changes to the wall, raise it, lower it, build things up against it etc. You just have to go through the process of serving notice on the neighbour and make sure the adjoining owner are not unduly affected by the changes.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 29th Jul 16, 1:21 PM
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    G_M
    I too am confused as to what 'indemnity' the sellers are offering? In what circumstances would this insurance pay out, and to cover what risk?

    A deed drawn up with the seller will not bind the neighbours in any way. It will not stop them objecting to any work you later propose. Only a Deed with the neighbours could do that.

    If you read the links I gave to you'll find that both owners of a party wall have rights, and obligations. Read upon the rights you would have.

    If you applied for Planning Permission to extend, the neighbour could, like anyne else, enter an objection which the council Planners would consider when deciding whether or not to grant planning consent.
    • Gemsi110
    • By Gemsi110 29th Jul 16, 3:48 PM
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    Gemsi110
    I too am confused as to what 'indemnity' the sellers are offering? In what circumstances would this insurance pay out, and to cover what risk?

    A deed drawn up with the seller will not bind the neighbours in any way. It will not stop them objecting to any work you later propose. Only a Deed with the neighbours could do that.

    If you read the links I gave to you'll find that both owners of a party wall have rights, and obligations. Read upon the rights you would have.

    If you applied for Planning Permission to extend, the neighbour could, like anyne else, enter an objection which the council Planners would consider when deciding whether or not to grant planning consent.
    Originally posted by G_M
    We agree the idemity is not help in this situation. We were wanting a deed between the two neighbours stating we can extend etc. Why we are so bothered is this was never brought to our attention when viewing the property. It was only revealed in the sellers pack under the question could anything cause a dispute. Im tempted to knock on the neighbours door to see what her reaction is to us extending and changing the garage.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 29th Jul 16, 3:51 PM
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    Mojisola
    We were wanting a deed between the two neighbours stating we can extend etc.
    Originally posted by Gemsi110
    But as long as you comply with the law, the neighbours can't stop you building an extension.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 29th Jul 16, 5:06 PM
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    AnotherJoe
    It is there garage. The property next door attached there garage roof to our wall
    Originally posted by Gemsi110
    Yes and since you will be doing work on their garage roof, they could object and worst case you won't get permission and won't be able to extend which seems to be your main aim.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 29th Jul 16, 6:24 PM
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    G_M
    ..... Im tempted to knock on the neighbours door to see what her reaction is to us extending and changing the garage.
    Originally posted by Gemsi110
    Emmmm... I don't understand. Were you considering not knocking on their door?

    I would always speak to the neighbours before buying a property (both sides, above/below in a flat, maybe over the road) whatever the circumstances.
    • Gemsi110
    • By Gemsi110 29th Jul 16, 7:01 PM
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    Gemsi110
    Emmmm... I don't understand. Were you considering not knocking on their door?

    I would always speak to the neighbours before buying a property (both sides, above/below in a flat, maybe over the road) whatever the circumstances.
    Originally posted by G_M
    Really! Never done that before when I bought the house I'm in now and nobody I know has ever done that. But may have to this time
    • Gemsi110
    • By Gemsi110 29th Jul 16, 7:02 PM
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    Gemsi110
    Yes and since you will be doing work on their garage roof, they could object and worst case you won't get permission and won't be able to extend which seems to be your main aim.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Yes you are right. This house seems to be throwing everything at us! The one we have now never had any issues!
    • G_M
    • By G_M 29th Jul 16, 8:36 PM
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    G_M
    Neighbours will tell you things about the house, and the neighbourhood, that the seller and their estate agent never will.

    And if they all slam the door in your face and refuse to talk to you, well, you've learned something very useful about your future neighbours!

    How you choose to act on information they give you, or refuse to give you, is up to you, but the information itself is invaluable in making a decision.........
    • Adviceneeded1988
    • By Adviceneeded1988 11th Jun 17, 5:05 PM
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    Adviceneeded1988
    My neighbour has just told us he wants our conservatory pulled down beucase it is built against his extension (on the party wall I presume).

    The conservatory has been in place 14 years and was built by the previous owners.

    Can he make us pull it down or does he havd no rights as he hasn't had a problem with it within the past 14 years?

    Thank you
    • Slithery
    • By Slithery 11th Jun 17, 6:15 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 128 Thanks
    Slithery
    @Adviceneeded1988

    Can you please start a new thread rather than hijacking someone elses. Thanks.
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