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  • FIRST POST
    • TDR500
    • By TDR500 24th Jul 16, 8:10 PM
    • 16Posts
    • 11Thanks
    TDR500
    Missed POPLA Appeal deadline
    • #1
    • 24th Jul 16, 8:10 PM
    Missed POPLA Appeal deadline 24th Jul 16 at 8:10 PM
    Hi

    I appealed to the private parking cowboys using the standard letter on the forum (BPA member) and got the possibly expected half response and appeal rejection.

    I have been busy and set my appeal reminder incorrectly and having tried to appeal on the POPLA site the 10 digit reference is not recognised. Could be because I am about a week overdue?

    Should I post my appeal to POPLA or just wait to challenge via small claims? I suspect I should do both.

    There was no PCN, the date of the alleged event claimed in the NtK is incorrect, the NtK was sent 57 days after the alleged date (not the 14 days under 9 (5)) and does not give a) the full address b) the time period of the contravention (probably on the previous day, when the car was there it was for a brief drop off or pick up of kids at the premises they claim to work for - so a matter of minutes). So I think it is invalid.

    Now I have worked out that the address was a school I will be writing to the school too. Probably better off just paying the damn thing in the first place.

    Any helpful advice, shared experience gratefully received.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Jul 16, 8:17 PM
    • 40,408 Posts
    • 52,292 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 24th Jul 16, 8:17 PM
    • #2
    • 24th Jul 16, 8:17 PM
    I would post it and hope they let it through. Don't date it, or date it a week ago...

    You will only have to defend at small claims if the firm is litigious. Which firm?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • TDR500
    • By TDR500 24th Jul 16, 10:39 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    TDR500
    • #3
    • 24th Jul 16, 10:39 PM
    • #3
    • 24th Jul 16, 10:39 PM
    Thanks, will do.

    UK P@#$ing Sol#tion

    They helpfully had an associate company send a debt chasing / threatening letter a week before the end of the popla appeal deadline suggesting that it was too late to do other than pay even more or they would advise legal action.

    Nice bunch of people. :-)
    • bod1467
    • By bod1467 25th Jul 16, 10:40 AM
    • 14,806 Posts
    • 13,448 Thanks
    bod1467
    • #4
    • 25th Jul 16, 10:40 AM
    • #4
    • 25th Jul 16, 10:40 AM
    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/UKPS.html

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 25th Jul 16, 10:59 AM
    • 5,561 Posts
    • 4,270 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #5
    • 25th Jul 16, 10:59 AM
    • #5
    • 25th Jul 16, 10:59 AM
    No NTD, out of time, wrong date, premature DBA letters, they do not have a lot going for them.
    • TDR500
    • By TDR500 26th Jul 16, 12:40 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    TDR500
    • #6
    • 26th Jul 16, 12:40 PM
    • #6
    • 26th Jul 16, 12:40 PM
    Thans for the encouragement. I don't really have time for all this - if I felt it was genuine and fair I'd had just got the driver to pay up, but I am too stubborn to let it go. Just received an "Action Required" letter giving me 14 days to identify the driver or they will pass it to their litigation dept. Or I could just pay them £100 plus £79 admin :-)

    Will I be their 3rd court action? ;-)
    • TDR500
    • By TDR500 26th Jul 16, 12:43 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    TDR500
    • #7
    • 26th Jul 16, 12:43 PM
    • #7
    • 26th Jul 16, 12:43 PM
    Worth sending them a copy of my POPLA appeal letter?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 26th Jul 16, 2:53 PM
    • 12,413 Posts
    • 14,813 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 26th Jul 16, 2:53 PM
    • #8
    • 26th Jul 16, 2:53 PM
    Worth sending them a copy of my POPLA appeal letter?
    Originally posted by TDR500
    no , definitely not

    if popla accept your appeal letter, they will give the PPC a copy anyway
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • TDR500
    • By TDR500 13th Oct 16, 10:19 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    TDR500
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 16, 10:19 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 16, 10:19 PM
    So I probably wasn't really overdue at the time of my first posting, but because they hadn't posted appeal rejection with the POPLA reference for about a week the reference number had already expired on the website. I had forgotten that I checked the dates when I first received the letter and was correct in calculating my own due date. I sent off the appeal anyway to POPLA and then again with evidence for the late posting by the parking company. They said it was still too late and wouldn't consider it.

    All quiet for a while then a few weeks ago a debt letter from a new collection agency, this time with a different address from the parking co - 28 days etc and a reminder letter this week - 7 days or will recomment legal action etc.

    Having identified the probable landowner I am writing to them this week as I am irritated by the waste of my time. I hear that they have issued similar NtK's to other parents at the school, though with less delay.

    Assuming it isn't worth cc ing the parking company but thought I'd check in here for any further top tips. They will have to prove to me or the court if they want any cash.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Oct 16, 10:27 PM
    • 10,968 Posts
    • 16,372 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Too late to do much (see you're complaining to the landowner - good ) but to wait and see if anything further transpires. Currently the PPC is not particularly litigious, but they have 6 years to pursue you through the courts and if you can predict what they will do between now and 2022, you're a better prophet than me!

    But more and more of them are chancing their arm at the county court, buoyed by Beavis.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Oct 16, 10:34 PM
    • 40,408 Posts
    • 52,292 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    We'd say a complaint to the landowner is the best way to try to get it cancelled now and yes, you will have to wait and see if ever they try a small claim (make sure you write to advise them - and keep proof of posting - if you move house in that time). This sort of stranglehold on people's freedom and finances has been dubbed 'credit clamping' and is worse than car clamping ever was.

    Hence why we now have this campaign, as the Government is giving an appearance of listening:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5524754&page=6

    You and other parents at the school are currently in the grip of a greedy private parking firm and have to put up with the threats for six years. Not good enough in this Country, is it? Why are we putting up with this carp? Be heard, please write to both political leaders and your MP and the DCLG too, urging strong action and for Schedule 4 of the POFA to be repealed.

    This industry is not one which should ever have been handed the right to pursue keepers let alone buy their data at £2.50 a pop from the apparently-complicit DVLA. The Supreme Court made things far, far worse - their decision in the Beavis case was an insult to consumers, an utterly astonishing (unintended but clueless) display of the hierarchy's disconnect with the people. It is time the entire scam was stopped.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 13-10-2016 at 10:37 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • TDR500
    • By TDR500 13th Oct 16, 10:46 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    TDR500
    Thanks

    Quite staggering given the errors on the NtK (no PCN, wrong date of offence, 57 days after the alleged offence, incomplete address and no period of parking given on the initial NtK)

    Aim to get the letter emailed tomorrow. Copy to the cowboys?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Oct 16, 10:52 PM
    • 40,408 Posts
    • 52,292 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would not copy the offending 'company' into the complaint to the landowner and certainly not copied into your MP/Government complaint, which we need done in numbers this month while they are listening. Even if people just copy the BMPA template and attach their PCN and letters, it's another complaint in the pile.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • TDR500
    • By TDR500 15th Oct 16, 11:41 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    TDR500
    Dear fellow sufferers
    My draft letter (redacted) to the probable landowner, which I aim to email 1st thing on Monday - any helpful comments? I've kept it polite as I would like them onside. I haven't copied in the appeal below, in which I point out the specific omissions. Will upload excerpts tomorrow.
    Thanks for your support so far

    Dear,

    I am led to believe that your school has a contract with X for enforcing parking restrictions at Y. X have declined to identify the landowner or the nature of the arrangements so I have had to track you down using Google maps to confirm the location. If that is not the case then perhaps you could advise me who does have responsibility for such matters?

    If you do, I am writing to you to express my concerns regarding the school’s parking policy and service provider and to request your assistance in resolving a dispute.

    My children have been attending after school swimming classes at Y for a number of years now, without incident but earlier this summer I received a Parking Charge Notice to Keeper in the post. The notice, dated xx 2016 was in respect of an alleged parking infringement on x Road on xx 2016. Subsequent correspondence specified the address as # x Road and a time of xx, but this does not correspond with our visits.

    I have appealed to both X and the industry funded appeals body “POPLA”. The latter would not consider my appeal as I had missed the deadline, however I enclose my appeal as it sets out my reasons for not settling the charge. In summary though I believe that X’s records are factually incorrect and incomplete and that their correspondence does not meet the obligations set out in the legislation (Schedule 4 of the POFA Act 2012). Without this it is impossible to know the circumstances in which the vehicle was parked when the photographs were taken and to conclude that a £100 fine is reasonable. Also, X’s use of debt collection letters within the initial POPLA appeal window can only be interpreted as threatening behaviour.

    Of course I recognise that the school needs to limit parking at the premises, which may not have always been enforced in the past. However, I would urge you to make this clearer to visitors by improving the signage inside and outside the building. It may be preferable to use the local authority’s contractor who at least issue tickets at the time, record the period of time, take time-stamped photographs which are made available online and have a truly independent appeals service. They don't always get it right but there is more clarity and they don't send misleading debt collection demands during the appeal period.

    Thank you for your time, which I recognise would be better spent on your important work at the school. I hope that you can be of assistance in cancelling this claim by X. I will not enter into any further correspondence with X and their agents until the charge is either cancelled or I receive answers to the specific points raised in my letter.

    I look forward to hearing from you.

    Yours sincerely,


    Enclosure:
    POPLA Appeal submission
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Oct 16, 12:02 AM
    • 40,408 Posts
    • 52,292 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Have you located a private landowner then? Private school or state school?

    If the latter, then IMHO the site may well be owned by the local authority (unless it's a free school or owned by a Catholic diocese). If so, if the site is owned by the local authority, then this is 'not relevant land' under the POFA and the keeper cannot be held liable.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • TDR500
    • By TDR500 16th Oct 16, 10:26 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    TDR500
    It's a state school as far as I can tell so not sure why they aren't using the local council's cowboys. It's not a catholic school but is a special school. They host after school activities for the local community which is why the alleged offence date/time doesn't make sense.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Oct 16, 10:28 PM
    • 40,408 Posts
    • 52,292 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I work in a school somewhere in Sussex and IMHO a state school cannot actually introduce any regulations in their car parks unless the site is privately owned, such as a Free School or Religious School. A state school where the land is Council owned can't use contract law and would be unlikely to be included in any Parking Places Order (Council rules) either!

    Who have you found is the landowner of the site - a private firm or the Council?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • TDR500
    • By TDR500 16th Oct 16, 10:32 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    TDR500
    Here are the key excerpts from my POPLA appeal:

    1. The PCN is factually incorrect as the vehicle was not on the relevant land on xx 2016. On that date I was at work elsewhere in x and the date does not match known visits for after school hours children’s swimming lessons, held on Tuesdays.
    2. No PCN was issued at the time: a) the vehicle was not there; b) the driver did not find a PCN from Y attached to the vehicle on this or any other occasion; c) the Notice to Keeper refers to it being issued under paragraph 9 of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 which is applicable where a PCN has not been issued, rather than paragraph 8; and d) the limited photographic evidence supplied shows no PCN attached to the vehicle.
    3. The Notice to Keeper issued on xx 2016 is not compliant with POFA 2012 and therefore invalid for the following reasons:
    Paragraph 9 (2) (a) states that the notice must specify “the relevant land on which it was parked” – it only states x Road and the post code which does not make it clear where the land is, given that x Road is a public highway and not a private road or estate.
    Paragraph 9 (2) (a) also states that the notice must specify and “the period of parking to which the notice relates” – only a date is provided with no reference to the period from/to. What was the “specified period of parking”?
    The driver contends that whenever the photographs were taken, the period would have been minimal, either escorting young children into, or collecting them from the school building on a different date, but Y have not provided this information, nor details of who the landowner is nor their contractual arrangements with them.
    Paragraph 9 (5) states that where a PCN is not issued at the time a Notice to Keeper must be issued within 14 days. The Notice was not issued until 57 days after the alleged and disputed date.
    4. I believe that the signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. The unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers before they park. This is evidenced by the driver not noticing them.
    5. In my initial appeal letter to Y I requested further information which has not been forthcoming. Specifically, about the identity of and their policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 and they have omitted clear information about the process for complaints including a geographical address of the landowner.
    The effect of all of these errors and omissions, whether deliberately or negligently, invalidates this PCN and Notice to Keeper under the legislation. I therefore request that this PCN be cancelled.
    • TDR500
    • By TDR500 16th Oct 16, 10:41 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    TDR500
    It's a Community Special School so not sure what difference that makes. I could invest another £3 and find out who the landowner is from the Land Registry or call the council or school tomorrow.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Oct 16, 10:47 PM
    • 40,408 Posts
    • 52,292 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    It's a Community Special School so not sure what difference that makes. I could invest another £3 and find out who the landowner is from the Land Registry or call the council or school tomorrow.
    Originally posted by TDR500
    I'd try the phone call first, to the school, asking who contracted the parking firm and who to contact with a complaint. Stay on the line till they tell you...

    Your POPLA appeal is moot, because you are too late to submit it. But useful as a basis for a defence if you should need it.

    You might get a Letter of claim or court papers from Gladstones in the end but they are defendable. As I stated to a poster just now, I can't recall a forum-defended Gladstones claim which actually proceeded to a hearing, this year. We've helped with bespoke defences in a number of cases but none have actually gone to a hearing AFAIK, and certainly some have been discontinued over the Summer as I remember posters confirming as much.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-10-2016 at 10:53 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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