Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • purplesparkles
    • By purplesparkles 13th Jul 16, 11:58 AM
    • 24Posts
    • 12Thanks
    purplesparkles
    Parking Eye Ticket for ALDI Margate - what next?
    • #1
    • 13th Jul 16, 11:58 AM
    Parking Eye Ticket for ALDI Margate - what next? 13th Jul 16 at 11:58 AM
    Hi there

    I've read all of the advice and quite frankly I'm confused. I have received an NTK. The driver wasn't a customer at ALDI. Obviously however the £70 the driver is now being asked to pay (having been too confused by the advice to get my act together in time for the smaller fine) feels out of proportion to the amount of time spent in the car park. As its a private parking charge I feel the driver shouldn't pay, but realise Parking Eye do take folk to court. I read somewhere that approaching them with the template letter gets their backs up and they continue to pursue. I don't feel the driver has a leg to stand on by approaching ALDI as there is no receipt, and I'm not certain who to approach. As advice is updated there seem to be lots of different folk to approach and I don't know where the driver stands.

    Thoughts and advice please.

    Thanks
    Last edited by purplesparkles; 13-07-2016 at 8:44 PM.
Page 4
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Sep 16, 6:15 PM
    • 12,463 Posts
    • 14,881 Thanks
    Redx
    simple edict

    "question everything, accept nothing"
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • purplesparkles
    • By purplesparkles 7th Sep 16, 6:22 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    purplesparkles
    So here's another shot at a POPLA appeal. Thoughts?

    Dear POPLA

    POPLA Ref. xxxx
    ParkingEye PNC no. xxxx

    I am writing to you to lodge a formal appeal against a parking charge notice sent to myself as registered keeper of a vehicle, in respect of an alleged breach of parking conditions at “ALDI Margate" on XX XX 2016.

    I appeal to you that I am not liable for this parking charge on the basis of the below points:

    1) ParkingEye has no standing or authority to form contracts with drivers in this particular car park, nor to pursue charges.
    2) The signage in the car park was inadequate.
    4) ParkingEye didn’t allow the reasonable grace period required under the BPA c o p.


    1) ParkingEye has no standing or authority to form contracts with drivers in this particular car park, nor to pursue charges.

    I do not believe that ParkingEye has any proprietary interest in the land such that it has no standing to make contracts with drivers in its own right, or to pursue charges for breach in its own name. In the absence of such title, ParkingEye must have assignment of rights from the landowner to pursue charges for breach in their own right, including at Court level.

    I contend that ParkingEye merely holds a basic licence to supply and maintain (non compliant) signs and to post out 'tickets' as a deterrent to car park users. I therefore require ParkingEye to provide POPLA and me with an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract that it holds with the landowner. This is required so that I may be satisfied that this contract permits ParkingEye to make contracts with drivers in its own right and provides it with full authority to pursue charges, including a right to pursue them in Court in its own name.

    For the avoidance of doubt, a witness statement to the effect that a contract is or was in place will not be sufficient to provide the necessary detail of the contract terms (such as revenue sharing, genuine intentions of these restrictions and charges, set amounts to charge for each stated contravention, etc.). A witness statement would not comply with section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice as the definition of the services provided would not be stated in such a vague template document.


    2) The signage in the car park was inadequate.

    Since receiving this PCN I have visited the car park where the parking event allegedly occurred, and feel that the signage is not adequate. The British Parking Association CoP requires that terms and conditions on car parking signs must be clearly readable. The signs around the car park detailing the terms and conditions of parking are approximately 2 metres off the ground, which is above the average height for an adult and contain a large amount of writing in small lettering that is not easy to read.

    3) ParkingEye didn’t allow the reasonable grace period required under the BPA c o p.

    Clause 13.4 of your Code of Practice states that, “You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.” ANPR cameras are on the entrance and exit road of the car park and they have failed to take into account any grace periods when issuing the parking charge notice. That is time to enter the car park, find a space, study the contract on offer (signs) and accept. ParkingEye state that the vehicle was in the car park for 1 hours and 41 minutes. With a mandatory grace period upon exit of 10 minutes, 11 minutes doesn’t seem unreasonable in this context.

    This concludes my POPLA appeal.

    Yours faithfully,
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Sep 16, 6:30 PM
    • 12,463 Posts
    • 14,881 Thanks
    Redx
    on point 3) it actually says this

    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes
    so its a mandatory grace period of a MINIMUM of 10 minutes but could be more , so ask popla to ask PE what the grace period under 13.4 actually is

    and expand on 13.2 , the time you mentioned to park up and read the signage , this can be construed as up to say 10 minutes , but definitely say 5 minutes , then add the two together and you get say over 15 minutes , or 15 to 20 minutes

    ie:- point it out to the popla assessor in no uncertain terms

    and as 13.3 says , they should point out to popla what the initial grace period is if asked , so ask popla to ask them what that period is , its certainly more than 1 minute !!

    labour the point , lol

    and add a point about advertising consent for the signs (see recent threads and pranksters blog)

    any NTK errors or POFA2012 errors ?
    Last edited by Redx; 07-09-2016 at 6:35 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • purplesparkles
    • By purplesparkles 7th Sep 16, 7:33 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    purplesparkles
    Ok here's a revision as per Redx's comments excluding the point about advertising consent for signs - I'm looking into that. No NTK errors Redx.
    _____

    Dear POPLA

    POPLA Ref. xxxx
    ParkingEye PNC no. xxxx

    I am writing to you to lodge a formal appeal against a parking charge notice sent to myself as registered keeper of a vehicle, in respect of an alleged breach of parking conditions at “ALDI Margate" on XX XX 2016.

    I appeal to you that I am not liable for this parking charge on the basis of the below points:

    1) ParkingEye has no standing or authority to form contracts with drivers in this particular car park, nor to pursue charges.
    2) The signage in the car park was inadequate.
    4) ParkingEye didn’t allow the reasonable grace period required under the BPA c o p.


    1) ParkingEye has no standing or authority to form contracts with drivers in this particular car park, nor to pursue charges.

    I do not believe that ParkingEye has any proprietary interest in the land such that it has no standing to make contracts with drivers in its own right, or to pursue charges for breach in its own name. In the absence of such title, ParkingEye must have assignment of rights from the landowner to pursue charges for breach in their own right, including at Court level.

    I contend that ParkingEye merely holds a basic licence to supply and maintain (non compliant) signs and to post out 'tickets' as a deterrent to car park users. I therefore require ParkingEye to provide POPLA and me with an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract that it holds with the landowner. This is required so that I may be satisfied that this contract permits ParkingEye to make contracts with drivers in its own right and provides it with full authority to pursue charges, including a right to pursue them in Court in its own name.

    For the avoidance of doubt, a witness statement to the effect that a contract is or was in place will not be sufficient to provide the necessary detail of the contract terms (such as revenue sharing, genuine intentions of these restrictions and charges, set amounts to charge for each stated contravention, etc.). A witness statement would not comply with section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice as the definition of the services provided would not be stated in such a vague template document.


    2) The signage in the car park was inadequate.

    Since receiving this PCN I have visited the car park where the parking event allegedly occurred, and feel that the signage is not adequate. The British Parking Association CoP requires that terms and conditions on car parking signs must be clearly readable. The signs around the car park detailing the terms and conditions of parking are approximately 2 metres off the ground, which is above the average height for an adult and contain a large amount of writing in small lettering that is not easy to read.

    3) ParkingEye didn’t allow the reasonable grace period required under the BPA c o p.

    Section 13 of the British Parking Association code of practise, states

    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to reach your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.

    In reference to Clause 13.2, this ‘reasonable grace period’ should allow time to enter the car park, find a space, study the contract on offer (signs) and accept. This could take up to 10 minute on entering, and again on exiting, meaning that a reasonable grace period could in fact possibly be considered to be up to 15 or even 20 minutes in total during the visit.

    ANPR cameras are on the entrance and exit road of the car park and they have failed to take into account any grace periods when issuing the parking charge notice. ParkingEye state that the vehicle was in the car park for 1 hours and 41 minutes. With a mandatory grace period upon exit of 10 minutes, 11 minutes doesn’t seem unreasonable in this context.

    As per Clause 13.3 I require that ParkingEye provide details of the grace period for this car park to both POPLA and me. I did not see any reference to ParkingEye’s grace period in the signage (which again points to the inadequate signage at the site), nor in any of the subsequent notices or letters from ParkingEye.

    Clause 13.4 of the Code of Practice states that the mandatory grace period should be a MINIMUM of 10 minutes but could be anything considered to be reasonable. I argue that 1 minute in excess of the absolute minimum cannot be considered unreasonable.

    Furthermore with 11 minutes being a ‘reasonable grace period’ it is important to point out that this case significantly differs from that of Beavis vs ParkingEye case, since there was in fact no breach of contract.

    This concludes my POPLA appeal.

    Yours faithfully,
    • purplesparkles
    • By purplesparkles 7th Sep 16, 7:56 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    purplesparkles
    Redx what exactly should I include about advertising consent? Are you suggesting that I check with Thanet Council whether advertising consent was granted? Or is there something more generic I can include?
    • purplesparkles
    • By purplesparkles 7th Sep 16, 8:22 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    purplesparkles
    Ok with regard to the advertising consent I have taken a look at the council's planning portal and can't find anything submitted by ParkingEye. I then found the following text proposed for inclusion in POPLA appeals. Should I include?

    The signs advertising parking at the site measure over 1 square metre in area, and are visible from the public highway, but do not have advertising planning consent. They are therefore illegal under the ‘The Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007’, which is criminal law. A contract cannot be formed with illegal instruments, this is a tenet of English law. So this charge must be struck out on these grounds alone.”
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Sep 16, 8:31 PM
    • 11,044 Posts
    • 16,479 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Ok with regard to the advertising consent I have taken a look at the council's planning portal and can't find anything submitted by ParkingEye. I then found the following text proposed for inclusion in POPLA appeals. Should I include?

    The signs advertising parking at the site measure over 1 square metre in area, and are visible from the public highway, but do not have advertising planning consent. They are therefore illegal under the ‘The Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007’, which is criminal law. A contract cannot be formed with illegal instruments, this is a tenet of English law. So this charge must be struck out on these grounds alone.”
    Originally posted by purplesparkles
    This isn't a showstopper. I'd concentrate on the more certain points of appeal. You're chasing shadows with this.

    Unless there is a wet behind the ears new POPLA assessor who gets sucked in by this, it will be disregarded,even rejected. Not having advertising consent is an issue for the local authority, not for POPLA.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Sep 16, 8:43 PM
    • 12,463 Posts
    • 14,881 Thanks
    Redx
    I am not exactly sure of this as its so new

    my point is that any signage needed planning permission and advertising consent , so if you are appealing on signage then surely its a factor ? , especially if this ever went to court

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5446569

    this is what prankster said

    ParkingEye discontinue two cases over criminal offence of non-permitted signage


    ParkingEye has now withdrawn two claims, one in Bury and the other in Cambridge where the following defence has been used. The defence centres on ParkingEye’s failure to obtain planning permission and advertisement consent and that no man should profit from his crime; it being a crime not to have advertisement consent.

    It seems that PE prefer not to have this defence tested
    recently , popla ruled on the no notification within 14 days , a BPA CoP idea, so we dont know what popla may latch onto next

    I do know that if you dont elaborate on the first grace period , popla assessors just look at the grace period for exit , ask themselves if the number 11 is greater than 10 and find for the claimant, hence why its important to spell it out

    see what this says about grace periods and Parking Eye

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5508395

    so at least 2 companies expect 30 minutes grace period , 2 or 3 times what the CoP may state

    I know coupon mad mentioned wording of a new clause due to a popla assessors decision, so anything is possible

    what I do know is , if you dont ask , you dont get

    I believe that one car park , maybe AIRE ST , had issues with signage or planning permission , plus contract issues, its all grist for the mill

    assume nothing , question everything

    signage needs advertising consent

    anpr cameras need planning consent

    so no you dont check with the council, you put PE to strict proof , same as with the landowner contract
    Last edited by Redx; 07-09-2016 at 8:56 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • purplesparkles
    • By purplesparkles 7th Sep 16, 8:54 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    purplesparkles
    Thanks Umkomaas.

    I am now trying to submit my appeal but it seems as though I can only do so in very small boxes, meaning I cannot submit my appeal as per my above letter. Is this the normal procedure?
    • purplesparkles
    • By purplesparkles 7th Sep 16, 8:56 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    purplesparkles
    Thanks Redx. I'll include, or at least try to. There are only 2000 characters/box allowed and so I cannot actually include my whole argument.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Sep 16, 9:00 PM
    • 12,463 Posts
    • 14,881 Thanks
    Redx
    in that box , you just put

    see attached appeal


    then you upload/attach the popla appeal as a pdf document (or a word doc if you have to)

    I would not appeal yet as you have not had enough feedback yet

    not unless your popla code is about to run out
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Sep 16, 9:07 PM
    • 11,044 Posts
    • 16,479 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    You need to convert your file to a .pdf and then attach to the appeal portal. In the portal window you put (words to the effect), 'Please find attached full appeal. POPLA Ref Number xxxxxxx, PCN Ref Number xxxxx, Vehicle Registration Mark xxxxxxx.

    Apparently a little green icon appears to show that the file has attached. Take a screen shot before hitting the 'Submit' key.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 07-09-2016 at 9:50 PM. Reason: Fixing predictive text - which seems to be getting worse after recent Apple iPad iOS update!
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • purplesparkles
    • By purplesparkles 7th Sep 16, 9:28 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    purplesparkles
    Thanks all. Submitted! I'll keep you posted.
    • purplesparkles
    • By purplesparkles 11th Oct 16, 3:20 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    purplesparkles
    Just received case file from Parking Eye via POPLA and have been given 7 days to respond. Any advice? Anything I should be looking for? I really have no idea how I should be looking to respond.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Oct 16, 3:38 PM
    • 11,044 Posts
    • 16,479 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    You need to rebut anything that you disagree with, or that is plainly 'wrong'. Anything not challenged can be taken by POPLA as you agreeing with it.

    You cannot add new appeal points now, but go to town on anything that's included in the evidence pack.

    Here's an excellent example of how one poster dealt effectively and comprehensively with a PPC's Evidence Pack. I'm sure this will give you plenty of ideas on how to handle your case.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=67385911&posted=1#post67385911

    And another one to consider.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=67402366&postcount=26

    And a further one.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/13uLICVZ13MeT7Q_4qzJUIyAn-jtVJUIVeCaaINpI2U8/mobilebasic

    And more recent ones.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69765991#post69765991

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=70246824#post70246824

    Please note, these examples are now a little dated in the context of the fast moving world of private parking, so you need to be careful about blindly copying and pasting anything that 'looks good', and especially in the context of Beavis. But they do provide an insight into how to make a start on your rebuttal.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Oct 16, 6:57 PM
    • 40,629 Posts
    • 52,503 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Aldi signs...in a typical Aldi car park, over half of them do not mention the £70. Am I right? A major point to raise at rebuttal; point out to POPLA how many of the signs shown have no chance of creating a contract to pay £70 because the majority fail to even mention it!

    Plus you need to reiterate that there are two Grace Periods in the BPA CoP so it is reasonable to spend a few minutes on arrival to find a parking space then read the signs and decide whether to stay (not that the signs all mention the £70) and then another 'minimum ten minutes' at the end is allowed by the BPA, to leave the site. ParkingEye have provided no evidence to refute this and your appeal included points about unclear signs and about the two mandatory Grace Periods.

    It is unreasonable to expect a driver to have taken LESS THAN ONE MINUTE to arrive, drive round, find a space, park, lock the car, then read the signs!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-10-2016 at 7:04 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,887Posts Today

6,153Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Just been to @channel4's #bearhunt premier, a beautiful artist reworking BUT be warned, a surprisingly sad end, mini MSE in floods of tears

  • Going to a very exciting premier right now... with Mrs and mini MSE, to the screening of "we're going on a bear hunt"

  • No. Not a huge fan. Never claimed to be.Just a fan. And one who choose to prioritise family time with his little gi? https://t.co/lZ9uUylk2U

  • Follow Martin