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    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 13th Jul 17, 7:39 AM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    We are not here to please other people. We are here to look after our families and ourselves. End of
    Originally posted by mardatha
    .............Crikey!

    Note to self - why did I bother to help out with various community things over the last month and be the one that sorted out (all on my own) 3 different community problems? All now successfully resolved - but two of them at least wouldnt be if I hadnt bothered.
    ploughing my own furrow...

    No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
    • fuddle
    • By fuddle 13th Jul 17, 8:02 AM
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    fuddle
    I believe Mar is touching upon a mother's instinct and nurturing side along with our essential and basic human psychological and survivalist needs.

    I believe she was responding to me and 'we' because we're mothers with a similar outlook on life.

    I don't know money? Why did you bother? Could it be that life would be better or easier for you in the long run? It takes a special kind of person to do something without getting something back in return... even as a volunteer I wasn't just doing it to give, I was doing it to get something out of it for myself too. Essentially we do what we do for the good of ourselves, our progression, our fulfilment or our happiness. It's the way our species is, I believe, along with psychologists the world over.
    Success.
    It's not always what you see.
    • MrsLurcherwalker
    • By MrsLurcherwalker 13th Jul 17, 8:21 AM
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    MrsLurcherwalker
    We do our own thing because we want to and because we can, we also help out in the village whoever, wherever and whenever we can IF we can because we live here too and it's to not just our advantage but everyone in the communities advantage to make this place as good as it can be for all of us. I don't think we've EVER expected praise and recognition for being part of the community and doing what we see as our duty in being a member of the society who reside here, it's part of belonging in a place surely?
    Go forward with the vision even if no one else can see it!

    No amount of regretting can change the past, and no amount of worrying can change the future!
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 13th Jul 17, 8:46 AM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    There will be a variety of reasons why people bother to do anything for anyone else/Society at large. Some will be personal (way of meeting friends,etc). When it comes to other things (eg trying to improve Society at large - as opposed to more "traditional" volunteering) then it can be as basic and non-personal as trying to make sure there is still a planet worth living on/a country that has at least some of the "freedom" we're told we have. Two somewhat different scenarios.

    The second one of which has personal costs - as I know myself - as I've been on the receiving end of being "punished" (not getting jobs I otherwise would have/chucked out of a job I already had for non-work reasons/etc) and it has cost me a lot of money over the years.

    We don't all do what we do for our own personal sakes. Certainly I've watched many people doing the second category of stuff (the trying to improve Society one) paying one heck of a personal price too. Certainly marriages/partnerships had a pretty high attrition rate - as they didnt survive it. Others also had personal problems they personally werent due for (denied jobs/kicked out of jobs/a home searched).

    So - there's benefits. But some people pay a high price personally instead or as well as getting personal benefits.
    ploughing my own furrow...

    No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
    • MrsLurcherwalker
    • By MrsLurcherwalker 13th Jul 17, 9:07 AM
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    MrsLurcherwalker
    And some people just get to live in a nicer place because they've done what they could in situations where they could actually make a difference, no reward expected or required, just the satisfaction of a job done as well as was possible.
    Go forward with the vision even if no one else can see it!

    No amount of regretting can change the past, and no amount of worrying can change the future!
    • fuddle
    • By fuddle 13th Jul 17, 10:18 AM
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    fuddle
    But don't you see money if there's a passion or 'a calling' or even a supposed selflessness there are still personal rewards for acting that way because of the sense of must do. 'I need to do this for the greater good' essentially leads to sense of fulfilment for achieving or working towards a goal. Whether we're talking about me volunteering for a charity or The International Director for Greenpeace (who is salaried) the personal motivation for doing the roles are about giving and doing but essentially, because we're human, we wouldn't do those roles if we didn't receive a jot of something in return. The scenarios might be worlds apart but because we're people we make the choices to do it with the expectation of getting something back for ourselves.

    With respect, I agree that we do have choices and I also agree with you money that we also have some really rotten stuff happen to us that is out of our control. But I disagree with your idea that in being selfless (which I believe no one really is because there's always a sense of fulfilment for doing something that it important to us) means that there's a price to pay in other areas. It's then a not a choice because no one would choose to have pain/worry/upset in their lives. I feel it then becomes a choice as to what fulfils a person more and therefore the decisions made favour the thing in their life that gives them greater reward. There's consequences for every action we take for ourselves. Sometime we get it right and sometimes we don't but no I don't agree that the two are mutually exclusive or that to do one we have to pay a price for another. I think we have to work at every little thing in life and learn to adapt to what comes our way... if we want to feel secure, happiness, fulfilment etc.
    Success.
    It's not always what you see.
    • monnagran
    • By monnagran 13th Jul 17, 10:35 AM
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    monnagran
    'Tis true. We can't solve the problems of the world on our own. All we can do is to try our best to to make our little patch of it a better place. To look after our own environment and the people who are entrusted to our care. It's difficult to know where family begins and ends.

    The reasons why people work for their community and altruisticly (if there is such a word) do good where they can are myriad.
    That last sentence reminds me of the "woman who went about doing good for others. You could tell who the others were by their hunted expressions."
    I digress.

    True altruism is extremely rare. The example that springs to mind is that of the homeless man who was telling me that someone had stolen his sleeping bag. Before I could draw breath to answer him, the man in the queue for tea behind him said, "Tell you what Jim. I've got one bag inside another., you can have one of mine."

    I learned more from those destitute people than I learned from all the philosophy and religious books I have ever read.
    The most important thing was this....."I give. Not because I have much, but because I know what it is like to have nothing."

    True compassion is a rare and wonderful thing.

    How did we get here, and what am I talking about? I dunno.

    I feel that a cup of industrial strength coffee may be beneficial.
    I believe that friends are quiet angels
    Who lift us to our feet when our wings
    Have trouble remembering how to fly.
    • fuddle
    • By fuddle 13th Jul 17, 11:07 AM
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    fuddle
    Ah you've caused a dint in my thinking monna. Where I once believed that people always do something to get some sort of personal reward I now understand that compassion, and the knowing what it feels like, can be the catalyst. I've been pondering foundations that are set up in memory of loved ones who have passed away and couldn't 'box it' for want of a better phrase. The motivation can't possibly be for a personal reward although having something to focus on during loss could be seen as personal needs being met from it. Heck I don't mean to sound crude with my blaze language. To know what it feels like is enough reason to help others who experience similar in a compassionate way.

    Well, I've a lot thank the ladies who didn't like shopping in a store that shelves weren't fully faced up. Between wisdom, joining with like minded people and listening to those that don't share the same views as me I've developed a bit more of my understanding.

    I'm about to join you in that coffee monna. Now, what's in a cup of coffee for me?!
    Success.
    It's not always what you see.
    • Witless
    • By Witless 13th Jul 17, 11:36 AM
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    Witless
    Now, what's in a cup of coffee for me?!
    Originally posted by fuddle
    If you've had a morning like me - pint mug, two heaped teaspoons of instant, boiling water topped with half an inch of cold.

    I'm quite proud of the fact I resisted the temptation to add several sugars, even though I needed the 'hit'.

    If the painter wasn't doing the doors & the skirting downstairs & I could use the kitchen, a bacon buttie or three would hit the spot.

    (Yes, a first world problem, I know.)
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 13th Jul 17, 3:41 PM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    ..and then again there's self-respect......and having one of your parents the type that would turn round sometimes and go "....and your motives for that are - what?" and could be very "quick off the mark" if they didnt think they were good enough.

    I recall an incident from my father of someone carelessly damaging one of his possessions. His main concern was not to be given the appropriate compensation for it (though he made darn sure he was) - but he simply would not accept that compensation from anyone else. He kept at it until the culprit themselves paid the compensation due (clue it was a child growing-up and he has strong views about how one brings up children to be). He very much took the view that adults are supposed to bring children up to know what "the standards" are and, if no-one else teaches them those standards = every other adult nearby has the responsibility to be in loco parentis and do so instead of the parent.

    Yep...he was a teacher latterly- and his pupils knew he was basically "on their side"....and I agreed with him.

    I've been remembering since this mornings post that it was far from uncommon for people to put themselves at risk of personal injury or (unfair) jail sentence or fine. I have yet to think of any personal reason why someone would do that. I admit to never going that far that I was at any risk of any of that - as I was well aware that I didnt fancy ending up in hospital or jail and wasnt prepared to take that level of risk.

    The level of risk involved in not getting a job/being chucked out of a job I had was as far as I personally was prepared to go - even before they materialised and I did find myself on the receiving end of "punishment" like that.

    EDIT; given me my giggle for the day - as I recall a policeman I fancied when younger and was hoping for a date. Now - I didnt know this guy - and was astonished to find he (thought he) knew me and made a comment of "I can't go out with someone like you". Errrm....that would be the person that is very honest and never committed any criminal acts would it? Hmmm.....I'd forgotten that little episode of "the price paid"....
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 13-07-2017 at 3:50 PM.
    ploughing my own furrow...

    No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
    • MrsLurcherwalker
    • By MrsLurcherwalker 13th Jul 17, 4:27 PM
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    MrsLurcherwalker
    It's a choice thing to 'do or not' within your home community, we have a beach clean up once a month where volunteers go and literally clear any rubbish that has been either left by people or washed up by the tides in a work party. We do the same if the local park and riverside grassed area get litter dropped, particularly as dog walkers I usually have a carrier bag in a pocket and pick up where I walk because I live here too and I like the place to look nice. I know many people, cyclists, walkers, fishermen who do the same every time they go out. Now I would rather that people were more conscientious and diligent in not dropping rubbish in the first place but I don't intend walking past and leaving it or I would be as bad as they are. I know one lady who takes it on herself to keep the grass verge by the Co-Op clean and takes her bag every time she passes it and clears any litter into the bin. None of the people involved in this expect thanks or reward for doing it, reward is a clean, tidy village that visitors and locals appreciate, how can this not be a good thing? or are we all talking at cross purposes about different interpretations of community involvement?
    Last edited by MrsLurcherwalker; 13-07-2017 at 4:32 PM.
    Go forward with the vision even if no one else can see it!

    No amount of regretting can change the past, and no amount of worrying can change the future!
    • jk0
    • By jk0 13th Jul 17, 5:04 PM
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    jk0
    On the subject of litter, I am getting exasperated with the neighbours of a flat I am renovating. There is a parking area next to my flat, which seems to attract loads of rubbish.

    This week I have removed two socks, a car battery, four wheel trims, multiple Polish beer cans and multiple Polish cigarette packets.

    This month, I have also removed the plastic trim from a bonnet, a box for a radiator, and two bin bags of other litter. Also dumped, but presumably removed by salvagers was a bonnet and a car radiator.

    This may sound like rather a racist rant, but don't people use rubbish bins in Poland?
    Last edited by jk0; 13-07-2017 at 5:07 PM.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 13th Jul 17, 5:05 PM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    Yes - in a word.

    There's traditional "volunteering" on the one hand and trying to change society for the better (rather than just "oiling the wheels of society as it currently is") on the other hand.
    ploughing my own furrow...

    No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
    • GreyQueen
    • By GreyQueen 13th Jul 17, 5:20 PM
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    GreyQueen
    I do some things for the wider environment/ individuals/ certain groups of people because I do get rewarded for my actions.

    My reward isn't tangible but it is immense emotional satisfaction. I have been useful and it makes me feel good. OK, I still have to work a job to earn money to pay the bills, which limits the time and energy for voluntary activities, but I'm definately not doing good for nothing, even although my rewards are invisible and not bankable.

    Yestereve, I was exploring the (derelict) other half of a lottie pal's plot, which he has only just been given permission to take on. Plants in there are nearly as tall as my head and there are intriguing objets lurking in the grass and nettles.

    Now, I love a great big green mess to get booted and suited and stuck into, and it's been years since my lottie offered the emotional satisfaction of clearing such a barstewarding mess. So I volunteered to help him with it. In return, he volunteered to help me with a task (bringing grains from the communal pile to my plot) which is time consuming and heavy work for me. It's a fair exchange and I feel well pleased with the prospect of playing with the mattock and secateurs, and the scythette and the reap-hook - getting a favour in return wasn't my motivation but it will be good.

    The informal exchange of help between individuals is the foundation of communities and the glue in social life. Can be a little, can be a lot, but knowing that there are people out there who aren't indifferent and who you can help and be helped by you in turn, is golden.

    Last weekend, my parents went to the churchyard to put flowers on Nan's grave, now the headstone has just been re-instated. They got talking to some other people who had travelled from outside the area to visit their family graves. My Dad was talking to the man, and placed him; he gave my grandparents a lift to London 50 years ago to visit my Dad when he was in hospital down there. It was an errand which would have taken him the whole of one day.

    The bloke had forgotten until reminded but looked a bit misty-eyed that this considerable kindness had been remembered all these years.

    We're all going to die one day and our existance will be in the memories of those who knew us. Some of us will be remembered by biological descendants and some of us won't. The only thing we can do of worth is to try and leave every situation we find ourselves in a mere fraction better than it would have been otherwise.

    Sometimes, that means noticing your neighbour hasn't put their bin out and the lorry is already on your street, and just doing it for them. Sometimes it means lending a hand or a tool to a task, sometimes it's a hospital visit, or taking a few seconds to chat to a lonely stranger, or smile at a random person. Or passing on a few spare veg, or some timely advice, if it looks like it would be well-received.

    We can go through life trying to be kind or we can do otherwise. There's an apocryphal tale which is about as authentic as a £6 note but nonetheless amusingly true;

    A man goes to visit a sage to ask if he should move to another place, because he isn't sure he will like the people over there.

    What are the people like where you live now? asked the sage.

    Oh, they're terrible, horrible selfish unpleasant people!

    I expect you'll find the new people pretty much the same, the sage told him.
    Every increased possession loads us with a new weariness.
    John Ruskin
    Veni, vidi, eradici
    (I came, I saw, I kondo'd)

    • MrsLurcherwalker
    • By MrsLurcherwalker 13th Jul 17, 5:51 PM
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    MrsLurcherwalker
    What community involvement ARE we discussing then? that leads to such angst and discontent in people who give of their time and efforts to it?


    Involvement with people who need help is on the cards too, I seem to have the role of the village dog whisperer, when we kept chickens people came to me for advice on ailing poultry too, we're first port of call to look after the pooch if it's going to be left alone for a long period due to an emergency or commitment or like Maisie is a scared and timid little creature afraid of the human race and most other things and we ALWAYS help, have had real successes. He Who Knows will at the age of 72 always turn out to help if anyone has computer problems, needs lifts, needs gardening done, plumbing done, help as labourer for anyone with a heavy project, take people to and from hospital, most things and we've never had negative responses from anyone far from it most people carry on when they're fixed and do the same themselves if they are able. How are you to be part of a community if you hold yourself in isolation from that community???
    Last edited by MrsLurcherwalker; 13-07-2017 at 6:08 PM.
    Go forward with the vision even if no one else can see it!

    No amount of regretting can change the past, and no amount of worrying can change the future!
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 13th Jul 17, 6:20 PM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    Probably depends on how one defines "community" to some extent.

    To some - it might mean their immediate street/some the town or village or city they are in.

    Others might define it as their whole country - and then we go off into what do we mean by "country". Living where I do now - the definition of "country" comes up often as some of us mean Britain and others just mean Wales.

    Helping out can be at as low a level as barter type stuff/"traditional" voluntary type stuff or, on the other hand, trying to help Society as a whole type stuff.

    I operate at all 3 levels personally. I barter. I do "traditional" voluntary type stuff - both cost-free and personally beneficial. I used to do a lot of "trying to help Society as a whole" and fair-mindedness compels me to speak up occasionally (even if I know it will go down like a lead balloon - but if I don't say it/do it I sometimes wonder who else will instead).

    EDIT; and the third level doesnt lead to "angst and discontent" at all that I've ever noticed. It sometimes leads to being "punished" (those job losses/personal injuries that wouldnt otherwise happen).
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 13-07-2017 at 6:24 PM.
    ploughing my own furrow...

    No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
    • fuddle
    • By fuddle 13th Jul 17, 6:58 PM
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    fuddle
    money you said you call your neighbour Chav 'rather loudly' when their dog barks on the house buying and renting threads a few days ago. I think this is another instance where we're just so different in our views, experiences and behaviour. I get that you expect to be treat how you would treat others and believe it or not we are very similar in that respect, but it can't be forced.

    To be part of a community is such a special thing when it goes right but it takes years of playing their game to be able to do that. I get narked at the bins left out at the bottom of the back street so the car struggles to get passed or it tips over in the wind but even though I feel compelled to get riled about it, I don't because it isn't my place. That doesn't mean that I haven't issued a ticket to the council about it though. There's a way to be an upstanding citizen without upsetting folk. You see what I mean?

    Having a likeable attitude and demenour is worth a lot to community members when it comes to incomers.
    Success.
    It's not always what you see.
    • MrsLurcherwalker
    • By MrsLurcherwalker 13th Jul 17, 7:05 PM
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    MrsLurcherwalker
    Being punished hasn't to my knowledge happened here in all the time we've been here, there IS a residents committee who look after the village environs and the villagers needs pretty well, there are lively discussions at some of the meetings too but as we're all adults and all are equal there are rarely repercussions of a personal nature. We have and have had in the past council representatives who have worked tirelessly for the good of the village, have gone far more than the extra mile to get things changed, sort out planning wrangles and keep the building done within the village area to what is appropriate, good people every one of them. When you say 'speak out' does that mean trying to right wrongs, give ideas that will benefit all residents, offer solutions to problems like the litter etc. help to get something into the infrastructure that will benefit the whole community? or is it personal issues that you feel will make things better all round? I've noticed that people who are incomers here sometimes don't actually wait to see how the community works before trying to force through changes they see as beneficial but that people who have been here for a long time know won't work because someone has tried it before? it's those issues that cause friction because we're then classed as backward introverts and the incomers see themselves as forward looking modernisers who are misunderstood and not appreciated, neither case is accurate there is usually a middle way that will work but incomers get quite cross and sometimes actually move away again, sadly as all are really welcome. Sometimes it needs a while to 'find' the soul of a community, not something that happens quickly.
    Go forward with the vision even if no one else can see it!

    No amount of regretting can change the past, and no amount of worrying can change the future!
    • Witless
    • By Witless 13th Jul 17, 7:43 PM
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    Witless
    I suppose the essence is you're either part of the community or you're not.

    Volunteering and voluntarily helping someone are the two sides of the same coin and, IMHO, come from a mindset that you treat others the way you'd like to be treated yourself - only as far as possible: some can't, or don't want to be helped.

    With finite resources (time, physical capability etc) I agree that there has to be prioritisation: I'd help anyone when possible - though not to the detriment of family or close friends IYSWIM and I certainly won't be taken advantage off (anyway, not the second time)
    • Jazee
    • By Jazee 14th Jul 17, 7:07 AM
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    Jazee
    Morning all.

    We moved into a new village community a few years ago now and made it a point to get to know how the village works, join clubs and go to as many village events as we can, and certainly not to change anything, as we wanted a different life from the busy town we'd come from.

    Another townie who came in before us tried to change things and this didn't go down well. It also made it difficult for people to trust us to begin with.

    In a SHTF scenario of whatever kind, I now think that I'd help people with my skills and knowledge and that they would do the same for me. Simple things day to day at the moment, like giving people lifts to appointments.
    The "Save 12k in 2017" Thread! (#20) August £419.52 Total £7419.52/£12000




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