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    • ivyleaf
    • By ivyleaf 11th Jun 17, 4:25 PM
    • 4,723 Posts
    • 49,452 Thanks
    ivyleaf
    Thanks pollyanna - I seem to feel ok on the omeprazole provided I take the larger dose, it's just the hair loss issue that's a problem.
    • thriftwizard
    • By thriftwizard 11th Jun 17, 7:59 PM
    • 2,413 Posts
    • 29,963 Thanks
    thriftwizard
    All "volunteers" for the SHTF thread-precis have been messaged - but it's not too late to join in, if anyone else is tempted!

    Noise & mayhem dwindling down here now; life will return to sleepy/normal tomorrow. Until next June...
    Angie

    Money's just a substitute for time & talent...
    • fuddle
    • By fuddle 11th Jun 17, 8:19 PM
    • 5,731 Posts
    • 87,137 Thanks
    fuddle
    I saw that it was 'the weekend' thriftwizard. I have fond memories.

    PM received. Off to go look back at the early days of TSHTF.
    Success.
    It's not always what you see.
    • jk0
    • By jk0 11th Jun 17, 9:54 PM
    • 1,934 Posts
    • 22,554 Thanks
    jk0
    FTA regarding Theresa...

    If she does hang in there, I doubt she will be able to get Parliament to agree any deal with the EU. (The EU are going to be even more awkward now by the sounds of it.)

    However, we still leave on 29th March 2019, 'deal or no deal'.

    Hard Brexit? Bring it on! I think it is far from hard.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 11th Jun 17, 10:03 PM
    • 13,173 Posts
    • 36,051 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    FTA regarding Theresa...

    If she does hang in there, I doubt she will be able to get Parliament to agree any deal with the EU. (The EU are going to be even more awkward now by the sounds of it.)

    However, we still leave on 29th March 2019, 'deal or no deal'.

    Hard Brexit? Bring it on! I think it is far from hard.
    Originally posted by jk0
    I must say I'm a bit torn as to which Prime Minister (past or present) would have me feeling most tempted to give them a piece of my mind if they were there in front of me right now. I think Tony Blair would have the edge still (16 February 2003 is firmly in my memory as when we learnt how our own PM could/would ignore us - despite being supposed to be OUR servant) - but it's feeling a bit of a close contest. Right now - I literally don't understand why Theresa May called this Election and I'm back to my very first thought when I heard that - of "How STUPID".
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 11-06-2017 at 10:10 PM.
    ploughing my own furrow...

    No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
    • jk0
    • By jk0 11th Jun 17, 10:16 PM
    • 1,934 Posts
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    jk0
    Thanks Money. My thoughts entirely.

    I made my mum laugh today:

    I said: 'What happens if May & Corbyn both turn up at Buckingham palace wanting to be prime minister? Does the Queen have to do eenie, meanie?'
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 11th Jun 17, 10:51 PM
    • 13,173 Posts
    • 36,051 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    Thanks Money. My thoughts entirely.

    I made my mum laugh today:

    I said: 'What happens if May & Corbyn both turn up at Buckingham palace wanting to be prime minister? Does the Queen have to do eenie, meanie?'
    Originally posted by jk0
    Now that could raise an interesting constitutional question - ie exercising powers that the monarchy now only has in theory (but not in practice) iyswim.

    Just what would happen if members of a Western Royal Family tried to act as if the centuries had rolled back and they were "in charge" again as they used to be. Would people just laugh/point out the year on the calendar to them ("Hello - welcome to the 21st century") or what? Hmmm...

    Mind you - I guess anything is possible - bearing in mind the number of sections of the human race bearing historical grudges for things that happened to their ancestors - rather than themselves personally. Something I find it very difficult to get my head round - as someone that looks to the future myself.
    ploughing my own furrow...

    No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
    • VJsmum
    • By VJsmum 12th Jun 17, 7:47 AM
    • 4,673 Posts
    • 67,258 Thanks
    VJsmum
    I'm not convinced that Europe is as dead as some are saying (EU I mean). Macron and Merkel seem to be riding high - there is a school of thought saying that we are making such a b@ll$ up of it that we've put them off trying.

    Also, could someone point me in a direction of how to find out the difference between a hard and a soft brexit? I am not sure i know what either entails...
    You're out with a friend in the capital, I'm a thousand leagues under the sea
    You're hovering worriedly over your eggs, And I'm pondering trees
    I'm wandering long, And I'm pondering trees
    For you and me
    Guy Garvey
    • fuddle
    • By fuddle 12th Jun 17, 8:00 AM
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    fuddle
    The past always shapes the future. Societal values are based on past experiences. Society is made up of people who have had past experiences, who have learned from those past experiences whether personally or via story telling.

    Our very being on OS is about bringing the past into our progressive lives. There is always something to be gleaned from the past.

    Holding grudges? I refute that because it's more about solidarity, about belonging and about pride in people who tried to overcome adversity. I'm a decent person in my community and I wouldn't be that without a sense of where I had come from.
    Last edited by fuddle; 12-06-2017 at 8:06 AM.
    Success.
    It's not always what you see.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 12th Jun 17, 8:52 AM
    • 13,173 Posts
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    That one word "solidarity" might be the clue as to the source of historical grudges. Now why didnt that occur to me before? It's not a word anyone I know ever uses - but vaguely recalled from trade union days in the past.

    Off to google the meaning/context of the word "solidarity" - first thing I came across so far was a reference to "striking factory workers in solidarity with university students"

    That's maybe what it boils down to then? - ie how people see themselves/their lives personally. If you see your life as "upward progression/meant to be/could have been" you probably view it in a rather different way.

    So - there's ones from 2,000 years ago, 400? years ago, 100? years ago currently in existence on the planet I can think of....

    Though I know my own mother doesnt understand why I havent the slightest interest in history (having been on the receiving end of one that started in the 1930s). But I do watch new ideas/new inventions/etc with fascination (or sometimes horror - eg AI or GM).
    ploughing my own furrow...

    No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
    • ivyleaf
    • By ivyleaf 12th Jun 17, 9:22 AM
    • 4,723 Posts
    • 49,452 Thanks
    ivyleaf
    VJsmum As I understand it, a hard Brexit means we'd leave the Single Market and the Customs Union, and "freedom of movement" of people to and from the EU would end.

    A soft Brexit would be similar to what Norway has; we'd stay in the single market etc but would still have to pay fees to the EU and would no longer have any say in what they decide to do, and freedom of movement would continue.

    I read an article in which several Norwegians were interviewed and all said they felt they had the worst of both worlds and that if they were actually in the EU they would want to leave completely as many people want to do here. But of course, other Norwegians may think differently. It's a prickly problem, especially as the idea of a "hard border" between NI and the ROI is understandably very unpopular.

    I just told DS what I'd typed. He says you can dip your soldiers into one but not into the other
    • MrsLurcherwalker
    • By MrsLurcherwalker 12th Jun 17, 9:56 AM
    • 10,773 Posts
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    MrsLurcherwalker
    Solidarity is standing together in equal partnership, commitment and belief, it's part OF being a community member and doing your part as a member of that community in equal quantity and quality within the limits of your abilities and experience as any one other person in the community. It's doing the same share of the work that needs to be done to keep the community functioning as any other member of it. Solidarity is shared ideas and ideals and the strength of character and mind to stand together unwaveringly with others who share them.
    Go forward with the vision even if no one else can see it!

    No amount of regretting can change the past, and no amount of worrying can change the future!
    • fuddle
    • By fuddle 12th Jun 17, 10:08 AM
    • 5,731 Posts
    • 87,137 Thanks
    fuddle

    Mind you - I guess anything is possible - bearing in mind the number of sections of the human race bearing historical grudges for things that happened to their ancestors - rather than themselves personally. Something I find it very difficult to get my head round - as someone that looks to the future myself.
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention

    Though I know my own mother doesnt understand why I havent the slightest interest in history (having been on the receiving end of one that started in the 1930s).
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    It's no wonder you don't understand then really.

    You took the debate to something you have lived through though. You took it to the strikes and the unions not to ancestry which is what I thought you were commenting on.

    My family were involved in trade unions, my ancestors weren't. My family were coal miners but my ancestors were farm hands.

    My sense of solidarity (did you know of the Polish Trade Union called Solidarity? It was the first Trade Union that wasn't controlled by communist party - well, first country in a Warsaw Pact country. So your google was along the right lines but it could have thrown up a better argument for you. Google is no substitute for historical knowledge really. I digress) comes from being working class. We are more than just miner's strikes you know

    Women didn't just fight for the right to vote. Working Class men had to fight for the right too. 'Respectable' skilled working men got the right to vote in 1867, unskilled working class men got the right in 1884 and those who lived at home, were servants or soldiers living in barracks got to vote in 1918. It took the 1918 Representation of the People Act to see universal suffrage to all men - until then only working class me who owned property had the right.

    A bit ridiculous, I think, for those soldiers who were fighting in the First World War huh? Fighting for a country that they had no say in because of the job they did.

    So you see I feel a sense of kinship, and yes solidarity, with the working class people and because I am interested in what happened historically I can form my own opinions about the life I lead because I know and appreciate the fight that has gone on to get 'my people' their rights.

    So no, I don't hold historical grudges but I am aware that I lead a progressive life, with a progressive attitude, that my ancestors didn't and that makes me more determined to live a decent life, make decent choices and be a decent person in my society.
    Last edited by fuddle; 12-06-2017 at 10:11 AM.
    Success.
    It's not always what you see.
    • monnagran
    • By monnagran 12th Jun 17, 10:25 AM
    • 2,838 Posts
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    monnagran
    100% correct Mrs LW. Solidarity is what most people are looking for and offering to their family, friends, neighbours, colleagues and the wider community.
    It is the best way of living to achieve a healthy mind, healthy relationships and a secure and happy community. With everyone striving to achieving the best outcome for the common good.
    This is the good solidarity.

    There is, of course, the other kind of solidarity that consists of people banding together to sow strife and discord and to re-fight battles that were fought and settled centuries ago.
    This is bad solidarity.

    It is the never-ending battle between good and evil, and who you choose to join in solidarity, depends on what sort of person you are and, as fuddle says, what sort of history you have.

    The only people who choose to join neither side are Narcissists who are solely concerned with themselves and their own needs and well-being.

    All of which is enough amateur psychology for today.
    I believe that friends are quiet angels
    Who lift us to our feet when our wings
    Have trouble remembering how to fly.
    • MrsLurcherwalker
    • By MrsLurcherwalker 12th Jun 17, 10:51 AM
    • 10,773 Posts
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    MrsLurcherwalker
    I think it's hard in 2017 UK with all the ease and comfort that is available to imagine any other way of life. I know we see images of third world and even the poorer eastern, middle eastern and eastern European nations with conditions people have to live in so very different to our own but we see them so often that it becomes remote, doesn't touch us with understanding that it IS the reality for most of humankind even in 2107. 100 years ago we were fighting a war, people in the UK were literally starving because there was no support system like we have today. Go back another 100 years and people were hard pressed to earn enough to feed, house and bury the children they bore and themselves. I believe it was the practise to put aside money each week for the 'funeral fund' they KNEW they would have to have because life was precarious enough to know you'd be lucky to actually raise a couple of kids to adulthood and I believe then adulthood began at the age of 12? certainly you could marry at that age. Sadly this was one of the reasons they died as the shilling could have gone to feed them but then there was disease to factor in and that might kill you as readily as starvation and no funeral fund meant a paupers grave and shame to the family.

    We fret these days about Broadband not being fast enough, potholes in roads, who is in power in Government, the NHS not being able to provide ALL the things we think we're entitled to, etc. etc. etc. a long litany of wants and expectations and grudging mumblings that it isn't fair that we won't get the new camera, phone that everyone else has, latest TV with a curved screen the list is endless. The reality is that WE live in the bubble, we are cossetted, protected, supported, educated, mended when we break, entertained, fed wonderful manna from all over the globe without a single thought as to how it happens to be this way. I think the west is in for the biggest WAKE UP CALL in history in the very near future.....I like to think we preppers are at least aware the alarm will go off and possibly already waking up to the future.........watch this space!!!
    Go forward with the vision even if no one else can see it!

    No amount of regretting can change the past, and no amount of worrying can change the future!
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 12th Jun 17, 11:06 AM
    • 13,173 Posts
    • 36,051 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    In our western countries basically I see it that there is a huge red line laid down in the 1960s/70s - beyond which there came a point people cannot be pushed. That being when universal access to the Pill/legal abortion came into our societies.

    One lesson I learnt from history - my father telling me that his family had the problems it had because there were so many children to feed and clothe and his own family wouldnt have had those problems if it had been present day size of 1 or 2. His father earned a decent income - but it just wouldnt spread over all those "mouths".

    This is a large part of why I feel it's irrelevant in many instances to look back to before the 1960s - as that factor alone means "The past is a different country. They do things differently there".

    Personally - I've always admired people who stand up for their beliefs/principles (do the Jonathan Livingston Seagull or the "duckling amongst swans" stance). Whether it be through from the solitary hermit/nun/monk living on their own (as does still happen these days) up to anyone rising to lead their society that can manage to do so without the "all power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" factor coming into play.
    ploughing my own furrow...

    No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
    • MrsLurcherwalker
    • By MrsLurcherwalker 12th Jun 17, 11:10 AM
    • 10,773 Posts
    • 149,734 Thanks
    MrsLurcherwalker
    Without 'ALL' of the history that happened before them we wouldn't have had the 1960s to be liberated in!
    Go forward with the vision even if no one else can see it!

    No amount of regretting can change the past, and no amount of worrying can change the future!
    • jk0
    • By jk0 12th Jun 17, 11:30 AM
    • 1,934 Posts
    • 22,554 Thanks
    jk0
    Northern Ireland EU status
    I've been trying to think of a way ahead for Northern Ireland after Brexit:

    I believe people there have a choice of an Irish or British passport. Well, could the same thing apply to goods and services?

    Items sold to & from the EU could be treated as being Irish, and items sold to & from Britain could be treated as being British. (I know there would be some fiddles.)

    Immigrants coming to Northern Ireland to live could be disbarred from the rest of the UK, and I would guess we would have to check the passports of anyone crossing the Irish Sea.

    Any thoughts?
    • fuddle
    • By fuddle 12th Jun 17, 11:47 AM
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    fuddle
    The only thoughts I have jko are about division and discord. I think there are a lot of troubles ahead.

    Legal abortion? Medical abortion only in Ireland. Western Country. Just over the water from West Wales.

    Just going through the SHTF archives; pinecones as firelighters (will be collecting on the school walk from now on) and biscuit tin lids as frying pans! If anyone is thinking of helping with the building our resources I'd say go for it. I'm having a ball reading back. Just from my own bit I know we're going to have a corker of a resource. It's fab!
    Last edited by fuddle; 12-06-2017 at 4:11 PM.
    Success.
    It's not always what you see.
    • thriftmonster
    • By thriftmonster 12th Jun 17, 4:42 PM
    • 1,597 Posts
    • 7,260 Thanks
    thriftmonster
    Thanks Money. My thoughts entirely.

    I made my mum laugh today:

    I said: 'What happens if May & Corbyn both turn up at Buckingham palace wanting to be prime minister? Does the Queen have to do eenie, meanie?'
    Originally posted by jk0
    I seem to remember from my reading that Clem Atlee's wife drove him frantically up to the Palace to form the government in 1946 in their own car because there was some thought that one of the other Labour leaders would try and get there first in an internal coup. (Some of the details might be wrong but that was the gist)

    So not so impossible after all
    I will not have my life narrowed down. I will not bow down to somebody else's whim or to somebody else's ignorance. - Bell Hooks

    Others have seen what is and asked why. I have seen what could be and asked why not - Pablo Picasso
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