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  • FIRST POST
    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 6th Jul 16, 7:00 PM
    • 173Posts
    • 199Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    Excel PCN from 2013, new letter from BW Legal- help!
    • #1
    • 6th Jul 16, 7:00 PM
    Excel PCN from 2013, new letter from BW Legal- help! 6th Jul 16 at 7:00 PM
    Hi everyone, I posted back in 2013 about a PCN received on the car I am registered keeper for, which I (possibly stupidly) ignored as info was changing but majority was still to ignore. I spoke to really helpful people on this forum who said as I had ignored, there not much else I could do except wait and see whether I had a court letter. Well after Roxburghe, Debt Recovery Plus and Graham White, nothing has been sent since Nov 2013.

    However, today I received a letter from BW Legal and from what I can gather from the web a lot of people have recently received these. Now I'm still sticking to my guns and not paying, for many reasons, mainly that they said the car was parked firstly causing an obstruction (on PCN itself), then that it was parked in a restricted area of the car park. The driver said there was plenty of room in a gravelled area to park which were not marked by bays, but didn't think where they parked wasn't a space or they'd have parked elsewhere. There were no markings/idication to say parking was not allowed there. Secondly, they took photos of the area and the signs are above head height and there is small print (unclear as it is on the photos) that would be very difficult to read.

    I have searched round the forum and cannot decide if I should reply to this letter robustly denying the charge or wait to see if it gets taken to court. My only concern is that I am away for 2 weeks shortly and don't want to miss anything that may get sent about court.

    Any help gratefully received. I have attached the NTK (I read somewhere if sent before 29 days/after 56 days of ticket on car no keeper liability can be formed? It was sent 65 days (inc weekends), which is 35 working days. And also the latest letter from Excel/BW Legal.

    Since the original letters I have married so they are in my maiden name from them purchasing from the DVLA, the letter from BW Legal doesn't even have a surname on!





    Last edited by LoveNorfolk; 06-07-2016 at 7:13 PM.
Page 6
    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 1st Sep 16, 9:22 PM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    I am ommitting the bit about photographic evidence from the letter I'm sending BW so that I have that for any further correspondence, so posting as above without that bit.
    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 4th Sep 16, 9:20 PM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    Thinking of possible emailing the landowner where the car park is to see if they will divuldge any info on Excel's 'rights' on the land, eg, allowed to manage parking, allowed to enforce, allowed to take to court, just wondering if it's a good idea, and if so what might be the best kinda things to ask? Just wondering if it would give me any more ammo against them and BW.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Sep 16, 11:34 PM
    • 40,571 Posts
    • 52,460 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thinking of possible emailing the landowner where the car park is to see if they will divulge any info on Excel's 'rights' on the land, eg, allowed to manage parking, allowed to enforce, allowed to take to court, just wondering if it's a good idea, and if so what might be the best kinda things to ask? Just wondering if it would give me any more ammo against them and BW.
    Originally posted by LoveNorfolk
    Yes, why not?

    It can't hurt and this isn't the 'Peel Centre' so not one we know exactly what the arrangement is, unless a reliable regular poster with knowledge of landowner contracts, like IamEmanresu, knows it.

    You could also ask that landowner if they will cancel it, as you are horrified that they are allowing their agents to sue registered keepers of cars when in fact, that person cannot be held liable but is expected to answer to it and face a hearing, just because a driver parked in their car park.

    Remind them they remain liable for the actions of their agents at all times, lawful or unlawful, including harassment and DPA misuse of a registered keeper's data.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 5th Sep 16, 5:36 PM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    Yes, why not?

    It can't hurt and this isn't the 'Peel Centre' so not one we know exactly what the arrangement is, unless a reliable regular poster with knowledge of landowner contracts, like IamEmanresu, knows it.

    You could also ask that landowner if they will cancel it, as you are horrified that they are allowing their agents to sue registered keepers of cars when in fact, that person cannot be held liable but is expected to answer to it and face a hearing, just because a driver parked in their car park.

    Remind them they remain liable for the actions of their agents at all times, lawful or unlawful, including harassment and DPA misuse of a registered keeper's data.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    It's some kind of developer, building a new area just outside town with houses, retail and marina type thing to join the canal, so I'm guessing once the area is comepletely redeveloped the car park possible won't exist anymore unless they decide to keep it on.

    Will give it a bash at putting together an email.

    Coupon-mad you said to wait a week before sending the letter to the SRA, do I need to wait for an outcome from CSA or would you just get it sent off? I'm hoping BW have received my last letter this morning
    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 5th Sep 16, 5:58 PM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    This is what I've put together for the landowner, any pointers gratefully received!

    Dear Sir or Madam,


    I hope you can help assist me with a problem I have involving your land.


    Over 3 years ago the vehicle that I am registered keeper of received a parking charge notice from Excel Parking who manage the old Trebor Bassett (now Brewery Street) car park that as I understand now belongs to you since your purchase in 2004.


    Excel are doing a poor job in managing the car park and have been harassing me and instructing a legal team to send threatening and misleading letters to me for an alleged contravention they seem to have plucked out of thin air as there is no evidence to back this up, not least because they continue to use the faded old markings of the former factory car park and use this to entrap users.


    I write to ask if you would cancel the charge, as I am horrified that you are allowing your agents to intimidate and sue registered keepers of vehicles that use the car park when in actual fact a registered keeper cannot be held liable but is expected to answer to this and face a hearing in court, all because a driver of the vehicle parked in the car park. They and their legal team seem to ignore this fact and continue with their vendetta.


    You as land owner remain liable for the actions of your agents at all times, lawful or unlawful, which includes harassment and Data Protection Act (DPA) misuse of a registered keeper's data, which they continue to use to this day.


    Since this incident myself and anyone else who has access to the vehicle, plus friends and family have avoided the car park in question at all costs, some of which were regulars. This was also put out on social media to inform people of the money grabbing and unfair tactics of your agents.


    I have already had cause to complain to the Credit Services Association (CSA) for breaches of their code of practice and await their response to the issues they have found and am also in the process of writing to the Solicitors Regulatory Authority (SRA) for the conduct of the legal team they have instructed. This quite clearly shows that Excel Parking hold little regard for users of the car park in question and will stop at nothing to attempt to claim unlawful charges.


    I look forward to your response.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 5th Sep 16, 6:02 PM
    • 12,459 Posts
    • 14,875 Thanks
    Redx
    I think I would ask them who is contractually responsible for marking out the parking bays and when they were last painted etc too
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Sep 16, 6:02 PM
    • 40,571 Posts
    • 52,460 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Agree with Redx, who beat me to it - a good point to add. Apart from that it looks fine...and if you are ready to send the SRA complaint, do it! No need to wait for the CSA outcome.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 5th Sep 16, 6:07 PM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    Excellent, thanks guys, I will check over the SRA complaint as I am off tomorrow and get sent, the landowner pags has kindly provided the managing directors name on their site!
    Last edited by LoveNorfolk; 05-09-2016 at 6:14 PM.
    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 5th Sep 16, 6:16 PM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    Have added this in:

    I enquire who is contractually responsible for marking out the parking bays and when they were last painted, as from the photos provided from the agent and a visit to look for myself, the bays are poorly marked out and extremely faded, with no redesign from the previous use, meaning some bays are chopped in half by fencing erected. There is also the absence of any markings that would indicate an area where parking is restricted, which is the alleged contravention your agent is claiming occurred despite the vehicle being parked within a (poorly) marked bay. This in itself is a failing on whoever is responsible and surely as land owner, regardless who manages the site, this should be something that you should be aware of and ensure is carried out correctly to prevent situations such as this.
    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 6th Sep 16, 11:01 AM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    Speaking to a colleague yesterday (I've found talking makes me a feel a bit better about it as people think these companies are s.c.u.m), found out they had a similar predicament to this and other old cases, but they paid it!! I was trying to get them to understand what they could have done, and they asked me this, which I couldn't answer them and thought you guys might be able to help with?

    They were the driver, so by mentioning NTK not being POFA compliant (which is what I was trying to explain), if it got to court they couldn't say they weren't driving, but could have said they couldn't remember with it being so long ago, but then that's technically lying. But that's even if it got to that stage! Any ideas, cos I'm stumped!

    On another note, no reply from the land owner yet, but have seen in local press that they are moving onto next bit of development and that the car park will close....but then move to another part of the land. Wonder if they'll keep Excel on?
    Last edited by LoveNorfolk; 06-09-2016 at 3:35 PM.
    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 6th Sep 16, 9:41 PM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    I have a letter put together for BW basically pointing out how the photographic evidence is not proof of the contravention alleged. Is this a good idea as I need this to be able to be use in court as it basically shows nothing to pin anything down as far as I see? I also need to point out to them they missed enclosing the PCN, and was going to request evidence to back me up, that if they can't provide will not help their case. I don't believe they will be able to provide it either as as far as I know it doesn't exist! They should have just received my last letter, so wondering whether to hold on a bit longer, or will that seem odd since I need evidence they have not sent me but said in a letter they have? Sending SRA letter tomorrow, do I need to inform BW? Cheers.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Sep 16, 10:20 PM
    • 40,571 Posts
    • 52,460 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Speaking to a colleague yesterday (I've found talking makes me a feel a bit better about it as people think these companies are s.c.u.m), found out they had a similar predicament to this and other old cases, but they paid it!! I was trying to get them to understand what they could have done, and they asked me this, which I couldn't answer them and thought you guys might be able to help with?

    They were the driver, so by mentioning NTK not being POFA compliant (which is what I was trying to explain), if it got to court they couldn't say they weren't driving, but could have said they couldn't remember with it being so long ago, but then that's technically lying. But that's even if it got to that stage! Any ideas, cos I'm stumped!
    Originally posted by LoveNorfolk
    Well, they don't even have to say that. They could have said this (quite a lot of detail here but just so you know!):

    There is no evidence as to who was driving the car on this occasion some four years ago. The burden rests with the claimant to evidence their case and to demonstrate the liability of a defendant. It is a fact that I am the registered keeper, and to hold me liable, a parking operator must comply with the POFA 2012, Schedule 4. It is situations like this one - a baseless claim brought by a notorious ex-clamper (Simon Renshaw-Smith being 'Captain Clampit' back in the day*) - that led to such detailed Bill going through Parliament in 2012. During the reading of the POFA Bill, Hansard shows that Parliament considered the lobbying of ex-clamping firms, angered by the clamping ban, but resoundingly discounted imposing any obligation whatsoever, upon a keeper to name a driver to any private firm. In the 2015 POPLA Annual report, the Lead Adjudicator (a barrister and expert on parking law) Henry Greenslade took time to reiterate and place his opinion on record that there is 'no lawful presumption' that a keeper was the driver and he added 'and no parking operator should suggest otherwise'.



    *http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2713705/The-parking-ticket-fat-cats-one-s-chum-Prezza-two-drive-Aston-Martins-Meet-men-ve-millions-motorists-misery.html
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 06-09-2016 at 10:26 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 7th Sep 16, 10:51 AM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    Cheers! That also helps me understand it better! It's such a minefield, there is no wonder people just roll over and pay. I've never since the pcn was received, ever parked in an excel car park again and never will!
    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 20th Sep 16, 8:26 PM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    All quiet on the western front, nothing from BW Legal (not that I want it unless they're just going to get on with court so they can stop wasting me time), nothing from the CSA yet which I take to be good news, they must be on to something with it being over a month now. Reply from the SRA in receipt of complaint, lets hope they're like WTF with all the complaints going in about BW Legal!!

    • Kind Of Irritated
    • By Kind Of Irritated 10th Oct 16, 10:22 AM
    • 106 Posts
    • 61 Thanks
    Kind Of Irritated
    Thanks, LoveNorfolk for placing your letter from SRA in here. I was directed here by Coupon-mad, who as well know is sharp on all of this.

    For the last week or so I have been compiling my own complaint to SRA. Seeing that in their response to you (from "You have reported...") they seem to have accepted your complaint as worthy of investigation, I will be using similar complaint points (mine is re Gladstones).

    One of the hardest things we complainants and charge dismissers have to do is distilling our complaints down to the salient points. I'm not sure if you pasted your complaint to SRA in this thread but at the moment mine looks like War & Peace, lengthwise anyway! I need to shorten this, I'm sure. Did you put into the SRA complaint all the details of what happened re your actual charge? Or did you just mention the points of complaint?

    Are you planning to work out YOUR expenses for the time it has taken you so far? Then, if and when the case gets to court, you can charge the legal representatives of the particular parking cowboys. Coupon-mad tells me the going rate is £19 per hour.

    Anyway, good luck with all of this. Although it takes hours/days/weeks reading up and working it all out it is probably worth the effort. I hope!
    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 10th Oct 16, 11:30 AM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    You're welcome, I'm putting things on as they happen so people can see what to expect or what they could send. I thought I had put the SRA complaint on here, it was basically just points, my CSA complaint wad more war and peace!

    Still nothing from either place, I complained to the CSA back in July!!

    I'm thinking about charging for time, not sure on setting it out yet, to be fair, time I've spent on it would amount to more than can be claimed! I've kept all postage receipts so would definitely claim for that and my time. I'm hoping really that it doesn't go to court, as it's a farce anyway, but if it does do, so be it and if I win I will claiming as they think it acceptable!
    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 10th Oct 16, 11:33 AM
    • 173 Posts
    • 199 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    adapt AND MODIFY TO YOUR CASE:


    I am complaining about BW Legal’s assertions in their 'Letter of Claim' ('Final Notice') dated xx/xx/2016 (copy attached) with reference xxxxxxx which I received on the xx/xx/2016. The letter includes the following statements by BW Legal which I found alarming and I am advised that these are misleading and untrue:

    (1) “If our client successfully obtains a County Court Judgement (CCJ) against you (which is likely), then a CCJ will be recorded on your credit file [...]”

    (2) They state that their client also ''reserves the right to commence enforcement proceedings...for recovery of the CCJ award'' as if a CCJ is a fait accompli.

    (3) “Please pay the Balance by xx August 2016 to prevent legal action from being taken. For the avoidance of doubt the Balance relates to the £100.00 parking charge and £54.00 for our client’s initial legal fees, which were detailed in the car park terms and conditions.”

    (4) They also make reference to the case of ParkingEye Limited v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 where they say, ''the Supreme Court held that parking charges were a legitimate commercial interest'' and that ''this case eliminates any defence'' I might have should the matter go to court.


    I am advised that those assertions and statements are contrary to the SRA’s Code of Conduct 2011, Chapter 11: Relations with third parties, and particularly are covered under Indicative Behaviours IB(11.7) and IB(11.8).

    These statements take unfair advantage of the addressee’s lack of legal knowledge where they have not instructed a lawyer, by stating untruths and making unsubstantiated and unreasonable claims. I am an unrepresented consumer and was distressed to read the letter from BW Legal and was certainly misled by it. This complaint is now sent to the SRA as a result of receiving online advice as regards the fact that these statements breach the SRA Code and such conduct should not be allowed to continue.

    Regarding statement (1) and (2) I am advised that BW Legal will know that, even if they were to bring County Court proceedings for their client against the addressee, and even if those were successful, they would not “very likely” end in a CCJ against the addressee; of course a CCJ would only be obtained in such a situation if the addressee, after being taken to court successfully and after being ordered by the County Court to pay BW Legal’s client, would then still not pay. It is unfounded and unsubstantiated for BW Legal to assert that this is a likely scenario and describe 'recovery of the CCJ Award' as if it is almost inevitable. This assertion is made to coerce the addressee of BW Legal’s letter into paying their demand. This is taking unfair advantage against an unrepresented addressee and I was certainly alarmed and distressed to read such statements.

    Statement (3) is a clear demand by BW Legal on behalf of their client for a sum of £54.00 that is not legally recoverable. BW Legal will know that it has been held countless times that when instructed to collect a simple debt, demanding from the debtor the debt recovery costs is taking unfair advantage since it cannot be said at that stage that such a cost is legally recoverable; particularly since those costs have not been substantiated at all. This is therefore again clearly taking unfair advantage against an unrepresented addressee.

    Statement (4) is absolutely irresponsible. To inform a recipient of a letter about a parking charge which does not in any way match the facts of the Beavis case that they have no defence because it has been 'eliminated' beggars belief and again, I was completely misled by this assertion. Consumers are being coerced into paying charges which bear no relation to the circumstances of the fairly unique 'Beavis case', which I am advised the Supreme Court were at pains to 'Tweet' straight after their decision, turned on the specific legitimate interest of the landowner in a particular retail park, based on the clear terms on the signs in that car park alone. My case is nothing like that case. To mention just one clear matter of possible defence open to me (among others), the signs were wholly different and illegible, which is what caused the issue to arise. But if I was to believe BW Legal's letter I would have thought - as I initially did, in a panic - that I have no defence and must just pay their client.

    It is understood that BW Legal is sending out identical Letters of Claim/Final Notices on an industrial scale (for the same client and for other private parking companies) to addressees all of whom will be legally unrepresented. I would therefore respectfully request the SRA to take swift enforcement action to ensure that BW Legal stops issuing assertions and statements which are clearly used to coerce consumer recipients into paying unjustified and unenforceable demands.




    suggested by "a friend"
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    This is what I adapted Kind of irritated
    • Maundrelle
    • By Maundrelle 8th Nov 16, 9:38 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Maundrelle
    really learning a lot from this thread so keep us updated on your responses that you're sending out!
    my position is similar ( received Final Notice from BW legal ) so Im just putting together my response letter to BW legal and will also put a complaint to the SRA as many have advised too, thanks to all who are assisting
    • MirandaW
    • By MirandaW 11th Nov 16, 10:55 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    MirandaW
    BW Legal
    Hi all!

    I think I have a very similar issue. I recently received letters from BW about a PCN issued in 2014. I can't remember parking in this area, I am not even certain I was driving (espically after 2 years), therefore I have ignored the letters.

    However today I received a court claim form. This I obviously can't ignore but I am unsure what my rights are :-/
    The fine demand is now £244! But I don't know whether to pay it to make it go away or is there a way to defend this?

    I am very worried about this!

    Many thanks in advance

    Miranda
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Nov 16, 11:00 PM
    • 12,459 Posts
    • 14,875 Thanks
    Redx
    this one hasnt got to a court claim yet, yours has , so please start your own thread using the red NEW THREAD BUTTON

    thank you
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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