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  • FIRST POST
    • ABowman
    • By ABowman 2nd Jun 16, 1:12 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 3Thanks
    ABowman
    ES Parking charge - items to include in appeal letter
    • #1
    • 2nd Jun 16, 1:12 PM
    ES Parking charge - items to include in appeal letter 2nd Jun 16 at 1:12 PM
    I have read the forums here and the relevant threads. I am writing my appeal letter as per the template provided. I received an ES parking Charge for 'parking' on the Spinningfields estate.

    I had parked in the NCP car park on the estate and on exiting the car park I paused to check I was ok as I had fallen over in the car park. The engine was running and I was there for a around 1-2 minutes. I saw no signs but I did see a man acting suspiciously behind my car but when I turned to look at what he was doing he stood up and pretended not to see me. I then drove off and thought no more of it.

    My ask is for some help with the letter and the grounds for the appeal, are these acceptable items to include?

    1. The driver reports that a man was seen acting suspiciously behind the car at the time of the photo being taken but pretended not to see the driver. The driver believes that this person took the photo included in the letter.
    2. There are no adequate signs on the street which can be read by drivers.
    3. No period of parking is stated in the letter, there is nothing to suggest that car was parked at all. (incident time is noted as (15:31)
    4. The driver had no need to park in this location and has a receipt for parking in a nearby car park which would have covered the time given if chosen,

    I'm not sure how much to say in the actual appeal - if anything at all?!
    Last edited by ABowman; 02-06-2016 at 1:18 PM.
Page 1
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 2nd Jun 16, 2:27 PM
    • 990 Posts
    • 1,733 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #2
    • 2nd Jun 16, 2:27 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Jun 16, 2:27 PM
    They will ignore you and tell you to appeal to the IAS who will find in their favour. So to save you any hassle, why not ignore from the off.

    This is Water Street?
    General Election coming up? Your MP worried about his/her job? Give them something to do and get them to sort out these parking cowboys. Search "Theyworkforyou" for the name of your MP.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jun 16, 9:30 PM
    • 40,565 Posts
    • 52,449 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 2nd Jun 16, 9:30 PM
    • #3
    • 2nd Jun 16, 9:30 PM
    I agree, you could ignore them unless you get court papers. Keep ALL letters, just file them safely in case they pursue it in the small claims track later, within SIX years.

    OR you could send one challenge and that's already shown in the NEWBIES thread for you. THEN ignore them, of course, debt collector letters mean nothing. Don't ignore a small claim, come back if that happens and do not think the 'appeal' will work. It won't. The point is merely to appear reasonable in case it later goes to a small claim.

    Same advice as here, same for ANY small, basically non-litigious IPC parking firm:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5472585

    HTH
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 02-06-2016 at 9:45 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ABowman
    • By ABowman 3rd Jun 16, 6:32 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    ABowman
    • #4
    • 3rd Jun 16, 6:32 AM
    • #4
    • 3rd Jun 16, 6:32 AM
    Yes iT is Water Street, I read the advice as not to ignore the letter, send the template one back to them then expect to be ignored? So I shouldn't reply at all?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 3rd Jun 16, 7:20 AM
    • 11,015 Posts
    • 16,449 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 3rd Jun 16, 7:20 AM
    • #5
    • 3rd Jun 16, 7:20 AM
    Yes iT is Water Street, I read the advice as not to ignore the letter, send the template one back to them then expect to be ignored? So I shouldn't reply at all?
    Originally posted by ABowman
    For the sake of a quick copy and paste of the appeal template, then do just that. It won't have any immediate positive impact, but should this, in the very unlikely case of court papers being served, at least will show you to have engaged with the initial process.

    Chances of going to court? - well it would cost them £250-£300 to pursue you in order to recover £100 - you do the math! Plus it would require a decent degree of grey matter to work up a claim, something ESP have so far shown not to have an abundance of!
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Jun 16, 7:54 PM
    • 40,565 Posts
    • 52,449 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 4th Jun 16, 7:54 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Jun 16, 7:54 PM
    Yes iT is Water Street, I read the advice as not to ignore the letter, send the template one back to them then expect to be ignored? So I shouldn't reply at all?
    Originally posted by ABowman
    We gave you a 'do this or do that' scenario. Your choice but you will end up ignoring them.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ABowman
    • By ABowman 6th Jul 16, 9:10 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    ABowman
    • #7
    • 6th Jul 16, 9:10 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Jul 16, 9:10 PM
    I sent the template letter back to es and got an immediate rejection. I have now received a request for £125. I went back to the area as I don't live there and took some film and photos. There is nothing on the way into the road and the signs could not be read without getting out of the car and very close. There are no cameras there and on the day other road users were stopping unhindered.

    My query is, should I still appeal to the IAS though I know it will be fruitless, how much would it cost me should it go to court and I lose and is there anything we can do as a collective to challenge this stupid circus? MPs etc?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Jul 16, 9:47 PM
    • 11,015 Posts
    • 16,449 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 6th Jul 16, 9:47 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Jul 16, 9:47 PM
    The 'collective' is here, and PePiPoo, and CAG, and Leagle Beagles, and NoToMob, and Parking Prankster. It's been ongoing for years.

    If anything is 'fruitless', why would you bother?

    Max a court could award is the initial charge (£100) plus filing fee (£25) plus capped solicitor fee (£50) plus possibly a bit of travel cost for the PPC. That's it!

    Chances of going to court - based on current performance - NIL (but no guarantees as they have six years to pursue).

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/E_S_Parking_Enforcement.html
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • ABowman
    • By ABowman 27th Aug 16, 1:48 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    ABowman
    • #9
    • 27th Aug 16, 1:48 PM
    • #9
    • 27th Aug 16, 1:48 PM
    I have today received a claim form from the county court business centre. It doesn't make clear in the letter what I need to do except pay up. I have no intention of paying and will go to court if needed. In order to get to that stage should I be completing this paperwork to show I intend to conteSt it?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 31st Aug 16, 7:25 PM
    • 12,459 Posts
    • 14,874 Thanks
    Redx
    yes , you acknowledge and contest it

    there are plenty of similar court claims for that location and PPC at the moment on here , so please read them
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 31st Aug 16, 8:16 PM
    • 11,015 Posts
    • 16,449 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Who is the claimant on the court papers?

    Are any solicitors involved?

    When you acknowledge service, which you do right away, you mustn't put anything at all in the Defence box. Your defence will come later.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Aug 16, 8:16 PM
    • 40,565 Posts
    • 52,449 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I have today received a claim form from the county court business centre. It doesn't make clear in the letter what I need to do except pay up. I have no intention of paying and will go to court if needed. In order to get to that stage should I be completing this paperwork to show I intend to conteSt it?
    Originally posted by ABowman
    Please read 'Small Claim?' in the NEWBIES thread for bargepole's summary link of what happens when and how to complete the paperwork.

    You do not faff about with paperwork, you complete the Acknowledgement of Service, online first, using the password. Same advice as here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71214308#post71214308

    Except in your case, search here and pepipoo for 'Gladstones defence' (instead of BW Legal). I assume the claimant's solicitor is Gladstones? Show us your draft defence in September, in good time, after you have acknowledged the claim NOW, urgently, as explained in that link.

    DO NOT respond, if any poster with less than 1000 posts sends you a pm (private message) offering to 'help' with the defence off-forum. People with few posts could be anyone, and not acting in your best interests/could even be from the dark side! So, to get help you will need to keep updating this thread and we'll all chip in.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ABowman
    • By ABowman 1st Sep 16, 7:06 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    ABowman
    Thanks so much, I'm starting to write my defence but have just gone to register online. I must be being really stupid as I cannot see a password with the claim number with which to log in with. I have created the account but the password evades me. Should it be on the claim papers?
    • ABowman
    • By ABowman 1st Sep 16, 7:10 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    ABowman
    Apologies. Please ignome me I have found it.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Sep 16, 7:14 PM
    • 40,565 Posts
    • 52,449 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Great, just do the 'Acknowledgement of Service' saying 'defend in full' and NO to 'contest jurisdiction'.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ABowman
    • By ABowman 1st Sep 16, 7:27 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    ABowman
    Coupon-mad thanks very much I am very grateful. I have done that, now onto the defence.

    ES are actually registered where I live, this is for after the defence, but is it worth sending a complaint to my MP?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Sep 16, 8:50 PM
    • 40,565 Posts
    • 52,449 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes, we are certainly encouraging that - and putting your story on the BBC webpage for Watchdog's Autumn series - because PPCs are rampant with court claims right now. It is WRONG and needs exposing, that PPCs are using and abusing the courts as the 'new form of clamping'.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ABowman
    • By ABowman 17th Sep 16, 9:02 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    ABowman
    Court Appeal wording
    This is my intended defence, would someone be able to comment on it? My main issues are the signage, the photo of my car was taken by a guy hiding behind my car, I stopped for no more than 2-3 minutes giving them the chance to tell me to move on or issue a ticket. Cheers

    1. The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant.

    2. If the Claimant is intending to pursue this claim against the Defendant on the basis that the
    Defendant is the registered keeper then the Claimant has failed to show that the conditions for recovering this charge under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 have been met. The Defendant disputes that any of the conditions necessary for a claim to be pursued against the keeper of the vehicle have been met.

    3.a) No evidence has been provided to show a valid Notice to Driver was given to the driver in accordance with Paragraph 7, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    3.b) Where a Notice to Driver was given no evidence has been provided to show that a valid Notice to Keeper was served in accordance with Paragraph 8, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    3.c) No evidence has been provided to show that the Creditor has made a valid application for keepers details in accordance with Paragraph 11, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    4). It is believed that the Claimant has no standing to bring this claim. The proper Claimant is
    the landowner. The claimant has failed to establish their legal right to bring a claim either
    as the landholder or the agent of the landholder. Strict proof is required that there is a
    chain of contracts leading from the landowner to Parking and Property Management. The Defendant claims that the Claimant does not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no locus standi to bring this case.

    5) The Claimant did not display clear signs within the site that were capable of being read and/or form a contract.
    a) There is no prominent signage at the entrance of the street or on the street itself.
    b) Signage is not lit
    c) Signs are raised high up with small text which is difficult to read.
    d) The amount of charge is non prominent in the wording on the signage.

    The signage did not meet the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice or the Independent Parking Committee (IPC) Code of Practice. The Claimant was a member of the IPC, whose requirements they also did not follow. Therefore no contract has been formed with driver and the notices do not provide the 'adequate notice' of the parking charge which is mandatory under Schedule 4 of the POFA.

    6). Even if a contract had been formed it would be void. The Claimant was not acting in good faith and was in breach of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999.

    7) The claimant has no basis for claiming the £150 charge since it could in no way represent genuine pre-estimate of loss as they would have incurred for stopping on Water Street.
    Damages for breach of contract can only put the claimant back in the position they would have been in had the breach not occurred. As such, the £150 is clearly intended to be a penalty which would be unenforceable under contract law.

    8) The Defendant also disputes that the Claimant has incurred £50 solicitor cost and interest. The Particulars of Claim are spectacularly deficient and woefully inadequate to show a cause of action.

    9) There are no parking cameras in this location and therefore the photo supplied of the vehicle was taken manually, close to the vehicle which amounts to predatory tactics.

    10) An appeal was lodged with request for information to support the case but ES Parking failed to supply any requested,

    11) The Claimant has not complied with the pre-court protocol. The Particulars of Claim contains no details and fails to establish a cause of action which would enable the Defendant to prepare a specific defence. It just states “parking charges” which does not give any indication of on what basis the claim is brought. There is no information regarding why the charge arose, what the original charge was, what the alleged contract was nor anything which could be considered a fair exchange of information. The defendant therefore asks that the court orders the case to be struck out for want of a detailed course of action and/or for the claim as having no prospect of success.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 17th Sep 16, 9:29 AM
    • 990 Posts
    • 1,733 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Take #6 and #7 out. Useless now.

    Add in that there was no offer made. The signs are prohibitive and say "No stopping". As such there is no intent to form legal relations by either party and no consideration offered.
    General Election coming up? Your MP worried about his/her job? Give them something to do and get them to sort out these parking cowboys. Search "Theyworkforyou" for the name of your MP.
    • ABowman
    • By ABowman 10th Oct 16, 6:30 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    ABowman
    I have now received the N180 to complete which seems straight forward enough. I am happy to tick yes to mediation, I won't be paying this. My question is that Gladstones have asked for a special direction and that it should be settled on papers. Is there anything I need to complete within the N180 to say that I want it to go to court?

    I think I just need to complete the N180 now and send to court and Gladstones and include a covering e-mail with dates I can't do for the next 6 months?

    Cheers
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