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  • FIRST POST
    • stillmans39
    • By stillmans39 4th Apr 16, 9:51 PM
    • 12Posts
    • 10Thanks
    stillmans39
    MET parking ticket McDonalds
    • #1
    • 4th Apr 16, 9:51 PM
    MET parking ticket McDonalds 4th Apr 16 at 9:51 PM
    Hi there,

    about a month ago I received a PCN issued by MET Parking Services at McDonalds in Southall. I parked the car, went to get some money, popped into a shop, then went to McDonalds to get a burger. When I came out I had a parking ticket. There were signs displayed, which I noted, that the maximum stay is 90 minutes. What I didn't see is that the signs also say 'whilst on the premises' so leaving to get some money out etc is not allowed. I appealed to MET Parking on the grounds that I was a paying customer using one of the templates on here. Unsurprisingly, it has been rejected.

    The grounds for rejection seem to be ambiguous. Apologies for quoting at length but this is what they said:

    "The terms and conditions of use of the car park are clearly stated on the signs prominently displayed at this site including that there is a 90 minute maximum stay for the use of McDonald's customers only.

    A site survey was conducted whilst your vehicle was on the premises and as there was no one to take accountability for your vehicle a parking charge notice was issued. We can confirm that the charge was issued correctly and we are upholding it.

    We note you state that the driver was a paying customer, however, the manager of the restaurant signed the survey to confirm that there was no one present to take accountability for your vehicle and to authorise the issuing of this charge"

    It seems unclear if they are rejecting the appeal because I was over the 90-minute time limit (which I wasn't) or because I left the premises. I think my argument when I appeal to POPLA will be that the signage is not clear. There is nothing that says customers are not allowed to leave the premises - 'whilst on the premises' implies you shouldn't park your car and go somewhere else without patronising the restaurant. However perhaps I should ignore this angle as they haven't actually made explicit reference to my leaving the premises. So should I just say that I was within the 90 minute time limit and appeal on these grounds?

    Also I never received a NTK in the post, only the PCN on the windscreen. Does this make a difference? Very grateful for any help. I have read through the newbies forums and don't think my questions are answered there but apologies if they are.
Page 2
    • stillmans39
    • By stillmans39 10th Apr 16, 10:05 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stillmans39
    Am I right in thinking though that if they don't send a Notice to Keeper within the time frame, my appeal must be upheld - since they have not followed the regulations set out in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012?

    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Apr 16, 10:30 PM
    • 54,103 Posts
    • 67,767 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Am I right in thinking though that if they don't send a Notice to Keeper within the time frame, my appeal must be upheld - since they have not followed the regulations set out in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by stillmans39
    Yes if you did not ever say who was driving in the first appeal, as you have assured us you didn't. We've said this all along. That's why the keeper appeals to a windscreen PCN, to distract a PPC so they forget the NTK. It's a plan we've followed for over a year - and it often works.

    But POPLA Assessors are worse than clueless at the moment - there appears to have been a catastrophic failure to train the new staff properly on Schedule 4 of the POFA. For this reason I suggest this appeal point is your #1 and that you quote the section of Schedule 4 shown here - and drum it into the appeal this is THE LAW and there is no other way for a keeper to be liable - to pre-empt a disatrous decision like this one:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=70481748#post70481748
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 11th Apr 16, 12:33 AM
    • 2,511 Posts
    • 3,102 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    stillmans39 ....
    you are now getting the best advice you will get .....

    try paying for advice ....... if you wish ...

    I will bet you a £ that it will not stand up to what you will get off CM

    be brave ...

    good luck

    Ralph
    • stillmans39
    • By stillmans39 11th Apr 16, 9:32 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stillmans39
    But POPLA Assessors are worse than clueless at the moment - there appears to have been a catastrophic failure to train the new staff properly on Schedule 4 of the POFA. For this reason I suggest this appeal point is your #1 and that you quote the section of Schedule 4 shown here - and drum it into the appeal this is THE LAW and there is no other way for a keeper to be liable - to pre-empt a disatrous decision like this one
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Wow! That is a truly shocking decision. Will certainly follow your advice.
    • stillmans39
    • By stillmans39 11th Apr 16, 9:34 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stillmans39
    stillmans39 ....
    you are now getting the best advice you will get .....

    try paying for advice ....... if you wish ...

    I will bet you a £ that it will not stand up to what you will get off CM

    be brave ...

    good luck

    Ralph
    Originally posted by Ralph-y
    I don't doubt that. Very grateful for all the help I've been given.
    • jus71
    • By jus71 12th Apr 16, 10:23 AM
    • 239 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    jus71
    Do you really think they happened to go in and harrass all of the Mcdonalds customers at the moment you happen to be out of the site? More likely is that someone watched you leave the site from behind a bush, ran across and stuck the ticket on, and never went in.

    I mean, do you think Mcdonalds would allow some muppet to come in and do a roll call for cars in the car park several times a day? What happens to customers in the toilet, or that are on their way back to the car?

    I doubt they could prove such roll call, so their claim is entirely fraudulent.

    Complaint to Mcdonalds, the BPA and the DVLA.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    When i complained to McDonalds i got a reply after 3 weeks

    I can confirm this parking area is managed by an independent company who are responsible for monitoring the car park and taking details of registration numbers. The regulations and signs at the restaurant clearly state the policy and the relevant charges.

    Suffice to say, if a customer contravenes the clearly displayed parking regulations, they will receive a ticket.


    In my case the he did literally run out from behind a bush, stuck tickets on cars then left the car park, the driver in the car next to me couldn't believe it!
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 12th Apr 16, 10:32 AM
    • 6,960 Posts
    • 9,067 Thanks
    beamerguy
    When i complained to McDonalds i got a reply after 3 weeks

    I can confirm this parking area is managed by an independent company who are responsible for monitoring the car park and taking details of registration numbers. The regulations and signs at the restaurant clearly state the policy and the relevant charges.

    Suffice to say, if a customer contravenes the clearly displayed parking regulations, they will receive a ticket.


    In my case the he did literally run out from behind a bush, stuck tickets on cars then left the car park, the driver in the car next to me couldn't believe it!
    Originally posted by jus71
    In the words of Mcdonalds ... "suffice to say"

    SUFFICE TO SAY, you will not be visiting McDonalds again.
    Stupidity = loss of customers

    My reason for not going to Mcdonalds is the recent media reports that their Mc muffin had mould all over the egg .... YUK
    Last edited by beamerguy; 12-04-2016 at 10:39 AM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 12th Apr 16, 11:07 AM
    • 3,995 Posts
    • 5,653 Thanks
    Half_way
    Suffice to say that this company are agents of mcdonalds, and mcdonalds will be paying you for your wasted time.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • stillmans39
    • By stillmans39 11th May 16, 1:13 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stillmans39
    Success!. I've received this email from POPLA:

    An Appeal has been opened with the reference 3860846139.

    MET Parking Services have told us they do not wish to contest the Appeal. This means that your Appeal is successful and you do not need to pay the parking charge.

    Yours sincerely

    POPLA Team


    Here is the transcript of my appeal sent to POPLA:

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I am appealing Parking Charge Notice XXXXXXXX, issued by Met Parking Services on 4th March 2016 on the following grounds:

    1. No keeper liability.
    A Notice to Keeper has not been issued. As there has been no admission regarding who was driving the vehicle and no evidence of this has been provided, the Private Parking Operator has failed to comply with the keeper liability requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    Paragraph 4 of The Act states that

    (1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.
    (2)The right under this paragraph applies only if— (a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met
    The condition specified in paragraph 6 “is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)—
    (a) has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8; or
    (b) has given a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 9.”
    Paragraph 9 states this notice to keeper must be given within a "period of 28 days following the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to driver was given"

    As the registered keeper of the vehicle I have not received a Notice to Keeper. As you can see, the law is unequivocal on this matter. A Notice to Keeper must be served where the driver has not been identified. Without this, the creditor does not have the right to recover the charge from the keeper of the vehicle. For this reason my appeal must be upheld.

    2. The parking charge has been issued incorrectly and the reason for the charge is unclear. The rejection letter from MET Parking Services following the initial appeal states that: "the terms and conditions of use of the car park are clearly stated on the signs prominently displayed at this site including that there is a 90 minute maximum stay for the use of McDonald's customers only" As the driver was in the car park for less than 90 minutes and was a customer, there are no grounds at all for the issuing of this parking charge notice.

    The rejection letter states that "a site survey was conducted whilst your vehicle was on the premises ...We note you state that the driver was a paying customer, however, the manager of the restaurant signed the survey to confirm that there was no one present to take accountability for your vehicle and to authorise the issuing of this charge" There is insufficient evidence that the driver was not on the premises. MET Parking Services need to show clear proof of the efficacy of the site survey - that they checked all parts of the premises (including the toilets) and surveyed every customer in the restaurant.

    3. The signage is deliberately misleading. The signs displayed around the car park clearly state that it is a customer car park and there is a maximum stay of 90 minutes. Only in the terms and conditions does it state that it is “for the use of McDonald’s customers whilst on the premises only" This implies that the car park is to be used by those patronising the restaurant, not those who are shopping or using the services of other businesses nearby.

    However there are always times when customers may need to leave the premises - e.g. to withdraw money from a cash point, to take an urgent phone call, to attend to a car alarm etc. If customers are specifically forbidden to leave the premises for any reason, even when they have purchased food from the restaurant, this needs to be made clear on the signs and should be included in the red ‘headline’ section of the signage. One would expect the signs to say something like 'users of this car park must not leave the premises'.

    It is also unclear what constitutes the premises - the restaurant only or the restaurant and the car park. If it is only the restaurant, then drivers would be in breach of parking regulations when walking to or from their car to the restaurant. If it does also include the car park, as I assume it must, then did the parking attendant also survey every person in the car park, as well as inside the restaurant, and can MET Parking Services offer clear proof of this?

    I hope you will consider my points carefully. I would emphasise that point 1 is not a subjective argument but a bald statement of fact. A Notice to Keeper is required in this case by law and this has not been issued. I therefore see no way in which the charge issued by the PPO can be upheld.

    Yours faithfully,


    The only thing that I'm a little annoyed by is that on tracking my appeal on the POPLA website, it says MET are dropping the charge as a 'goodwill gesture'. 'Being incompetent, dishonest and without a leg to stand on' would be a more valid reason, but, hey, can't have everything I suppose.

    Many thanks to everyone for their invaluable help.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th May 16, 6:48 PM
    • 54,103 Posts
    • 67,767 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Well done!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Rooman007
    • By Rooman007 11th May 16, 11:46 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Rooman007
    What is this all about
    Don't know if anyone can help my boy got a letter off these muppets saying pay now lol my boys was in there early in the day for 10 min and then went back 7 hours later now they are saying he parked up for 8 hours my boy has a life why would he park up in mc Donald's for that long I know he likes a burger but that is taking the Micky please help do I live it or do I get in touch with them all the best peeps and thanks in advance
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th May 16, 12:44 AM
    • 54,103 Posts
    • 67,767 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Don't know if anyone can help my boy got a letter off these muppets saying pay now lol my boys was in there early in the day for 10 min and then went back 7 hours later now they are saying he parked up for 8 hours my boy has a life why would he park up in mc Donald's for that long I know he likes a burger but that is taking the Micky please help do I live it or do I get in touch with them all the best peeps and thanks in advance
    Originally posted by Rooman007
    Go into the McD's and get the manager to cancel it. Have a rant in front of other customers but polite enough not to appear a troublemaker, merely a very annoyed victim of a scam that you know the manager can phone to cancel. Obvs take the offending scam PCN with you.

    Other than that, to see how to appeal, get off this thread and read the sticky thread 'NEWBIES PLEASE READ THESE FAQS FIRST'. Top of this forum, page one of the threads, no link given as it's already only one click away.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • stillmans39
    • By stillmans39 13th May 16, 10:36 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stillmans39
    so should this now go into the POPLA decisions thread? If so, how do I do that? Thanks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th May 16, 6:40 AM
    • 16,678 Posts
    • 26,085 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    so should this now go into the POPLA decisions thread? If so, how do I do that? Thanks
    Originally posted by stillmans39
    Just copy and paste in the next 'Reply' box in the 'POPLA Decisions' sticky.

    Well done in seeing MET off.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Mustang2006
    • By Mustang2006 11th Feb 18, 3:00 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Mustang2006
    Hi
    I have a similar issue. My daughter parked in Starbucks car Park and went to McDonald's. As the registered keeper of the car I received an NTK letter in post. No PCN was placed on the windscreen tho. The date of the alleged offence was 01/01/2018 and the issue date of the notice was 07/07/18. I appealed the notice as the keeper of the vehicle on grounds of unclear signage and the fact they didn't issue the notice within 14 days of the alleged incident. They rejected my aappeal saying the signage was clear but mentioned nothing about the 14days.. Do you think I have grounds to appeal to popla?? Thanks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th Feb 18, 3:09 PM
    • 5,707 Posts
    • 4,426 Thanks
    KeithP
    Hi
    Do you think I have grounds to appeal to popla?? Thanks
    Originally posted by Mustang2006
    Yes you do, but please start your own thread.

    Offering advice to two people about two separate incidents can only lead to confusion.
    Last edited by KeithP; 11-02-2018 at 3:30 PM.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Feb 18, 4:51 PM
    • 54,103 Posts
    • 67,767 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    This is a 2016 thread, why even read it? Go to page one, today's threads (see my signature below).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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