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  • FIRST POST
    • mort2376
    • By mort2376 4th Apr 16, 2:01 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 6Thanks
    mort2376
    Vcs & ipa
    • #1
    • 4th Apr 16, 2:01 PM
    Vcs & ipa 4th Apr 16 at 2:01 PM
    Hi all.

    I appealed my PCN issued by VCS to the IPA and have been dismissed and ruled in favour of VCS.

    My argument was that I had only recieved the NTK on 01/02/2016 when the date of offence was 14/11/2015, which is over the 56 day limit.

    Their response is detailed below :

    "I am satisfied that the Operator has established a prima facie case. In response to this the Appellant raises a number of points in their appeal and I will consider each point in turn.

    1. The Operator confirms that a PCN was attached to the vehicle, although a photograph was not taken. The Appellant states that there was not one on their vehicle when they returned. It is possible that this could have been removed (by the third party) or blown off prior to the Appellant returning.

    2. The signs states that parking is for customers of Lloyds and Booths (albeit Booths is closed). It is implicit in this term that parking is for individuals making use of either Lloyds or Booths on the day of parking.

    3. Simply because the Appellant holds an account with Lloyds that would not entitle them to park as and when they choose. It is impossible for me to guess what the driver may or may not have done on this occasion without evidence from them or documentary evidence confirming that they were a customer on this occasion.

    4. and 5. The Operator does not pursue the Appellant as Registered Keeper, but as the driver. Therefore the time limit detailed in POFA 2012 is not fatal to the pursuit of the PCN.

    6. The presumption that the Registered Keeper is the driver, is a presumption based in case law, namely Elliot -v- Loake (1982) which held that in the absence of sufficient evidence to the contrary, the keeper of a vehicle is assumed to be the driver.

    In these circumstances I am satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that the Appellant is liable to pay the Parking Charge."


    If as is noted in point 1 they attatched a ticket to the car then how can they be chasing me as driver as the original ticket wa the NTD ?

    I have not named the driver on any paperwork as of yet.

    Can I do this afterwards ? Can I fight this further ?

    My appeal is detailed below :-

    1 Despite the photographs of my vehicle submitted by the company there is not one showing the first PCN attached to my vehicle despite the operator having time to take several images. The PCN states 6 images taken but only 5 have been submitted here. There was no PCN notice affixed to the vehicle at any time.

    2 Nowhere on the signs does it state you cannot use the car park when the branch is closed. In fact the large green sign next to the on uploaded here states "The car park is for the express use of of customers of Lloyds Bank and Booths only."

    3 I am an account holder at Lloyds Bank ( Proof of account uploaded ) and the person driving may have been using the cash machine to check a balance therefore was a customer at the time. Was this checked by the parking officer ? Just because the branch is closed does not mean you are unable to be a customer as the cash machine located at the front of the bank ( Image Uploaded ) is open 24hours a day as shown on the banks website ( image uploaded ). Therefore you are able to park on the car park 24hrs a day and use it.

    4 Nowhere in my correspondence with the company have I mentioned the Protection of Freedoms act. I referred to the Independent Parking Committee Accredited Operator Scheme Code of Practice. ( A copy of which I have uploaded ) which states the notice to keeper must be served between day 29 and day 57 after the day that the notice to driver has been given. The company claim the notice to driver was given on 14/11/2015 ( Day 0 ) the notice to keeper was issued on 01/02/2016 a total of 79 days later. This breeches the code of practice they adhere to.

    5 Schedule 4 paragraphs 8(5) or 9(5) of the Protection of Freedoms Act specify the time limits for serving a notice to keeper. If this is not complied with then the registered keeper cannot be held to account for the debt of the driver. The POFA requires that for the notice to be valid it must be delivered not earlier than 28 days after, nor more than 56 days after the service of the notice to driver.

    Therefore the company is in breach of the POFA as the notice was not delivered to me within the specified timescale.

    6 How can the company rely on the presumption that I as the registered keeper of the vehicle be the driver at the time of the offence ? This presumption means that every individual has only access to their own registered vehicles. This is of course not the case. I have 2 vehicles registered in my name and both are insured for 2 named drivers to drive.

    I can put links to anything else if you need to see it, but any further assistance would be much appreciated.
Page 1
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 4th Apr 16, 2:03 PM
    • 4,389 Posts
    • 3,832 Thanks
    Herzlos
    • #2
    • 4th Apr 16, 2:03 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Apr 16, 2:03 PM
    Ignore them. None of that would stand up in a small claims court, especially the Loake case (note: they are calling you a liar).
    • arthurx1234
    • By arthurx1234 4th Apr 16, 3:06 PM
    • 360 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    arthurx1234
    • #3
    • 4th Apr 16, 3:06 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Apr 16, 3:06 PM
    Have i missed something?
    Why were you given the ticket?
    Stayed too long? did not pay? not in marked bay?
    What are the operating hours of the car park in realation to the shops hours of business ?
    Arthur
    Last edited by arthurx1234; 04-04-2016 at 3:07 PM. Reason: .
    BREXIT " TIME FOR THE BRITISH LION TO ROAR AGAIN"
    • mort2376
    • By mort2376 4th Apr 16, 3:18 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    mort2376
    • #4
    • 4th Apr 16, 3:18 PM
    More info
    • #4
    • 4th Apr 16, 3:18 PM
    Someone while I was at an event in London used my car and parked on the car park on a Saturday while the branch was closed. I think it's a money making con when you can't use the car park at the weekend.

    While the signs say when using branch, it does not say can't use when bank not open.

    I have not named the driver so it was sent to me as registered keeper.

    Also there is a cash machine so in theory the bank is open 24 hrs a day !
    Last edited by mort2376; 04-04-2016 at 3:19 PM. Reason: More info
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 4th Apr 16, 4:53 PM
    • 2,254 Posts
    • 2,745 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #5
    • 4th Apr 16, 4:53 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Apr 16, 4:53 PM
    "Someone while I was at an event in London used my car and parked on the car park on a Saturday while the branch was closed. I think it's a money making con when you can't use the car park at the weekend."

    I think you are now getting there

    If you had photographic proof of the scammer removing the window ticket ....

    or the keeper having a cast iron alibi ... like being in prison

    you would still have not won the IAS -kangaroo appeal

    you do not win IAS appeals ..... a very small number of prey .... ops I mean motorists are let off to make it look good ......

    however as mentioned above ...you are now in ignore territory ...

    very few of of the kangaroo ruled cases ever get to court .....

    I wonder why ?

    oh yes a real judge would in all probability laugh

    Ralph
    • mort2376
    • By mort2376 5th Apr 16, 2:17 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    mort2376
    • #6
    • 5th Apr 16, 2:17 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Apr 16, 2:17 PM
    Ok will go along the ignore route, but will keep this post up to date as to what's happening just for others info. I can't find many posts about vas taking people to court so fingers crossed.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Apr 16, 4:45 PM
    • 5,829 Posts
    • 4,558 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #7
    • 5th Apr 16, 4:45 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Apr 16, 4:45 PM
    Eliot v loake is a busted flush and the driver was convicted "beyond all reasonable doubt" on forensic evidence obtained by the police.

    If the anonymous "Independent Adjudicator" is a barrister or solicitor as the IAS claim,

    https://www.theipc.info/independent-appeals-service

    he/she should be hauled before the Bar Council or the Law Society for unprofessional conduct. Write to both

    http://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/problems.page

    http://www.barcouncil.org.uk/

    Copied to the DVLA, your MP, and your local Trading Standards Officer. E v L has nothing to do with assumptions based on the balance of probabilities
    Last edited by The Deep; 05-04-2016 at 4:48 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Apr 16, 9:50 PM
    • 41,768 Posts
    • 53,897 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 5th Apr 16, 9:50 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Apr 16, 9:50 PM
    "I am satisfied that the Operator has established a prima facie case. In response to this the Appellant raises a number of points in their appeal and I will consider each point in turn.

    1. The Operator confirms that a PCN was attached to the vehicle, although a photograph was not taken. The Appellant states that there was not one on their vehicle when they returned. It is possible that this could have been removed (by the third party) or blown off prior to the Appellant returning.
    And that is a prima facie case, according to the IAS?! Driver's word aginst the PPC, no evidence of a PCN on the car but we believe the PPC.

    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-04-2016 at 9:59 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • mort2376
    • By mort2376 15th Apr 16, 4:09 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    mort2376
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 16, 4:09 PM
    Update for info
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 16, 4:09 PM
    Just to keep you all updated.
    I emailed the DVLA just to see when the information was requested from them just for fullness.
    I was not expecting them to reply without a charge for passing me the information, but got the attatched letter.

    Below is a copy of what was sent to them :

    MY ADDRESS
    Dear Sir,
    As DVLA records will confirm, I am the registered keeper of a motor vehicle registration number PXXXXXX
    I recently received a postal Parking Charge Notice demand for a payment from a Private Parking Company.
    The Notice makes reference to Sch 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘PoFA’) and/or ‘keeper liability’.
    I understand that Paragraph 11 of PoFA makes it a statutory requirement for the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor) to have made an application for the keeper’s details to the Secretary of State.
    I therefore require the Department for Transport, acting on behalf of the Secretary of State, to provide the following information:-
    1) Confirmation (or otherwise) that my data was requested and supplied in accordance with that statutory requirement.
    2) The full details of the name and address of the requestor
    3) The date of the request
    4) The date that my personal details were given
    5) The date of the alleged contravention specified by the requestor
    6) The details of the alleged parking contravention.
    7) The location of the alleged parking contravention

    Regards
    XXXXXXXXXXX
    the registered keeper


    Below is the response I got.


    https://www.dropbox.com/s/b4imoabnsf0tm64/DVLA%20redacted.pdf?dl=0
    Last edited by mort2376; 15-04-2016 at 4:28 PM. Reason: Link Correction
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 15th Apr 16, 4:16 PM
    • 6,444 Posts
    • 6,232 Thanks
    pappa golf
    dead link ,, please repost on tinipics etc
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 15th Apr 16, 4:18 PM
    • 1,022 Posts
    • 1,802 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Your link has extra characters you need to take off.

    According to the DVLA, VCS got the information well within the POFA limit. Why the letter took 5 weeks to get to you no-one can say.

    Link https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73120537/DVLA%20redacted.pdf
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Apr 16, 4:20 PM
    • 5,829 Posts
    • 4,558 Thanks
    The Deep
    Error 404 on that link.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • mort2376
    • By mort2376 15th Apr 16, 4:30 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    mort2376
    Link re-edited now.
    I am just posting this for information. I also cannot understand why they took 5 weeks to send me a letter either ! Not heard anything back from them since the appeal was rejected. Was expecting a letter next day...........maybe I have to wait 5 weeks ???????
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Apr 16, 12:32 AM
    • 41,768 Posts
    • 53,897 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Never mind a few weeks of silence, they have 6 years to take it to court you know - if they ever try.

    You will get umpteen letters, with weeks of gaps in between, shrieking at you to pay. So get on with your life and ignore/collect them!

    COME BACK IF YOU GET A COURT CLAIM OF COURSE. KEEP ALL LETTERS & ENVELOPES.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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