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  • FIRST POST
    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 18th Mar 16, 7:57 AM
    • 66Posts
    • 46Thanks
    old dinosaur
    New unexpected ticket
    • #1
    • 18th Mar 16, 7:57 AM
    New unexpected ticket 18th Mar 16 at 7:57 AM
    Hi. Here I am again.
    Ticket received yesterday from Parking control management regarding Heath Parade NW9 layby. The driver dropped myself and daughter off on our way to Hendon Police passing out parade as I have some mobility issues. We do not know the area and as the main road had yellow lines this was the first place to drop off. A lorry was parked in the layby, as was a blue car, possibly the attendant's, we stopped between the two and there was no signage on a post, the photo sent shows it about 8 ft up on the wall, which we didnt see from the road let alone could we read unless we had stopped and got out. The letter received shows 2 photos of the car with the time scale missing, it's only when you go on their website that you can see the time, a matter of seconds from 11.11.31 when the vehicle was stopped, not parked, as engine continued to run, before driver pulled away at 11.11.33. totally back on the highway at 11.11.48! Guessing the attendant was within the people at the side of the lorry, as photos taken at ground level. He would have seen the mobility issues I have with my walking, as have a pronounced limp. Too busy clicking away with camera as 5 photos taken of the car and 2 of signage, still can't read small print from their photos. So £100 reduced if pay early to £60 for maximum 17 seconds wow wouldn't I like to earn that amount! Ofcourse we'll appeal but guessing rejection will be swift. Last time we ignored big mistake with Parking Eye, but eventually got off by contacting land owner. So please has anyone had dealing with PCM and especially with this site to offer advice.Who is the land owner as layby appears to be part of the highway. Thanks for any help with this. Not only has this spoil our lovely day at Hendon but also pcn arrived on a special birthday!!
Page 3
    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 13th Oct 16, 7:10 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Hi all. Help needed to prepare case as today received the Claim Form in the County Court Business Centre in Northampton. Been given choice of paying now on an admission form or returning an acknowledgement of service form. Still cannot believe that this Company are willing to go to Court for total of 16 seconds but there you go that's life.
    First will phone the Court to check it is genuine but obviously all those people who think Parking Control Management do not go to court are wrong. We have several strings to our bow and will contact the first one tomorrow. But any suggestions for further defense would be helpful.
    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 13th Oct 16, 7:15 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Hi. Can anyone tell me should we respond to this claim online at MCOL or is this just for paying? Thanks
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 13th Oct 16, 9:28 PM
    • 2,248 Posts
    • 2,731 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    you just need to acknowledge ...

    it should all be covered here

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=61084955

    Ralph
    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 13th Oct 16, 10:25 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Hi thank you for link very helpful
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Oct 16, 11:23 PM
    • 40,545 Posts
    • 52,434 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Hi thank you for link very helpful
    Originally posted by old dinosaur
    But that was in the NEWBIES thread all along...under 'Small Claim?' No such link was needed, you need to read the threads here and learn from them. Come back once you have acknowledged this as shown here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71340016#post71340016

    ...and start reading other threads for defence examples (that link has one but stop waiting for links)!

    Coming only to this thread (seemingly) is doing you no favours, there is an entire massive forum if similar cases you can search for the words 'defence Gladstones'...if this is from them. Loads written recently, I re-wrote one myself a while back, all found with one search in ten seconds flat.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 13th Oct 16, 11:48 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Thanks for pep talk but actually have spent hours on various sites, copying and pasting quotes from cases, information pertaining to my case and also submitting threads not just on MSE but other websites. MSE is my starting point and yes I have read the Bargepole post, also similar on fightback forum, Mr Mustard, Parking Prangster etc so hopefully armed with all this info I can face the court should we get there.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Oct 16, 11:56 PM
    • 40,545 Posts
    • 52,434 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Good stuff, and I know you sent me a pm as well so are fighting it robustly. We want to help.

    So, let's see your draft defence in due course this month (once it's acknowledge first).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 25th Oct 16, 10:23 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Thanks for support coupon mad. Have extended date to source more material and eventually received response from landowner, but they have been misled by parking company as charge logged 5 mins after car departure so looks like car stopped there longer than 16 seconds. Final email to landowner will include photos and times which apparently is the total of the parking co. defence oh and along with you parked you pay!
    Will look for cases where landowner has been asked to go to court to answer questions, as they seem to be removed from my case, although pcm is employed by them.
    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 25th Oct 16, 10:24 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Sorry meant to add- should my defense return to court be in bullet point form as dont want to give too much away?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Oct 16, 1:06 AM
    • 40,545 Posts
    • 52,434 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes it should be in numbered bullet points, here are some examples, this one I wrote today for a disabled person who was not the driver:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=109054&st=20&p=1223579&#entry1 223579

    Here's one bargepole wrote for someone, this is the format I copied for the above one!

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71313481#post71313481

    That's how it should look. No evidence at this stage, no photos, no links, no attachments but do mention everything that you will later rely on, if a hearing happens.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 26th Oct 16, 9:54 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Thanks for this.If we go to courts what can we claim in expenses for time taken to research/construct defense? I'm guessing its not the £14,400/hour that PCM are charging me pro rata lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 26th Oct 16, 9:58 AM
    • 11,015 Posts
    • 16,449 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Thanks for this.If we go to courts what can we claim in expenses for time taken to research/construct defense? I'm guessing its not the £14,400/hour that PCM are charging me pro rata lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Originally posted by old dinosaur
    Court rate for a litigant in person = £19 per hour. But be sensible as to the number of hours claimed (5-6 hours or thereabouts shouldn't see it being laughed out of court - and your costs claim with it!).
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 26th Oct 16, 10:45 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    That's very helpful, thanks, so am guessing other costs are loss of earning for day to court, postage, cost of land registry search? Anything else I can add please?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 26th Oct 16, 12:18 PM
    • 11,015 Posts
    • 16,449 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    That's very helpful, thanks, so am guessing other costs are loss of earning for day to court, postage, cost of land registry search? Anything else I can add please?
    Originally posted by old dinosaur
    Loss of earnings limited to £90 (£95?).
    Return travel costs - if driving, £0.45 per mile
    Postage
    Land Registry search (in principle, possibly, but not sure - try it especially if you've a receipt)
    Car Parking costs (oh, the irony!).

    That's about it - unless anyone else spots anything missing.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 26th Oct 16, 7:11 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Thank you lets hope I don't get that far but need to be prepared and actually would be great to receive a monetary bonus if I win, which hope to with all the support here.
    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 27th Oct 16, 6:02 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Hi the landowner are intimidated by PCM and say as it's going to court they can't help. I know that's incorrect has anyone here had a parking charge cancelled by Genesis Housing or is there a link that I can email to the cowardly can't be dealing with this landowner. Any help gratefully received.
    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 27th Oct 16, 6:07 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Sorry forgot to add can a rep from the landowner be asked to attend court to answer for PCM also can I ask for a copy of their contract and if so what statement am I looking for regarding this charge I know somewhere I read about VAT.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Oct 16, 6:37 PM
    • 40,545 Posts
    • 52,434 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Sorry forgot to add can a rep from the landowner be asked to attend court to answer for PCM also can I ask for a copy of their contract and if so what statement am I looking for regarding this charge I know somewhere I read about VAT.
    Originally posted by old dinosaur
    When that's been tried before it has been refused as disproportionate (also you are opening yourself up to more costs if you then lost).

    VAT is a red herring, nothing to do with what needs to be discussed at the hearing which is basically (boiling it right down):

    is there evidence of a contravention,

    is there evidence of a contract clearly formed and agreed by signage

    was the charge clear on that signage and could the Defendant have read it in seconds?

    and is the Defendant liable?

    In our experience, Gladstones tend to struggle with all of that! This case once we have more details, will be worth citing in your defence because it was about a no stopping location, I believe, and you said yours was similar, just 16 seconds allowed:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/es-parking-enforcement-at-spinningfield.html

    You can certainly ask for a copy of the contract; maybe Genesis Housing will show you a redacted version. If not, then you will not get one from PCM or Gladstones until the Witness Statements and evidence (yours and theirs) is exchanged before the hearing date.

    What's your date for getting this defence filed?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 27-10-2016 at 6:40 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 27th Oct 16, 11:21 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Thanks for this and yes would be helpful for my defence which I need to submit by 8th Nov. Another victory against PCM was near Reading similar private road but not a car park and judge awarded defendants costs as not a genuine pre estimate of loss could be slight trespass only. Spent all evening collating bullet points should be ready next week,but am concerned about giving away too much on this site. Will give landowner one last chance to come out from under his blanket to phone PCM as they are legally liable, but no where on the Web can I find a site where they've managed to have the guts to cancel a charge.
    • old dinosaur
    • By old dinosaur 3rd Nov 16, 2:37 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    old dinosaur
    Bullet points for brief Defense or Defence!
    Defence is as follows-
    PCM as a condition of membership of AOS have agreed to abide by the IPC code of practice.

    IPC code of practice signs Part B 2.1 -Signage too high to be seen from highway in a car and certainly not legible from there.
    Part B 14.1- predatory tactics VCS V IBBOTSON attendant had every opportunity to mitigate Company's "loss".
    Part B 3.2 Appeal states ANPR /CCTV as evidence- no sign to that effect and photos must have been taken at ground level by attendant or camera in a car, again if so the parked car reg. xxxxxxx belongs to the attendant then it's predatory tactics.
    IPC Code of Practice Part B 15.1 Grace period - 16 seconds is far too short a time to read and decide whether to enter into any contract, especially when the sign is 9-10 feet up.
    (Interestingly smaller notices now say "No customer parking at anytime" from Genesis.The driver or passenger were not customers of Sainsbury).

    Signage photographed as evidence is actually one hidden behind unloading van/lorry, as the one seen by the passenger were set diagonally to each other not underneath each other.
    Part B 8.1 -No genuine pre estimate of loss as no payment for stopping required, more a case of slight trespass see case PCM v Bull Lydsay and Woolford 21/4/16 and Judge Glen's response.
    Medical evidence to show passenger's mobility problems.
    Highway code defines "parking"- "If you've pulled in to let a passenger out, that's not parking unless there is a no stopping restriction". There were no Clearway No stopping signs, or Loading bay signs on single posts between the wall and the layby and the loading bay sign on the road was obscured by heavy traffic.

    Not sure what else to add please tweek obviously it's not in a proper order, but any help to show how to present this correctly worded to a court would be gratefully received asap please.
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