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  • FIRST POST
    • CatherineMarsh
    • By CatherineMarsh 2nd Mar 16, 6:30 PM
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    CatherineMarsh
    PPI Claim against Halifax - Waiting for Ombudsman
    • #1
    • 2nd Mar 16, 6:30 PM
    PPI Claim against Halifax - Waiting for Ombudsman 2nd Mar 16 at 6:30 PM
    When we applied for a mortgage in 2002 with the Halifax we were advised that we had to have payment protection otherwise our Mortgage would not be agreed. A few years later we realised we were paying over the odds and the policy was not correct for us and changed to another provider. We contacted the Halifax to reclaim what we were missold and got a very standard letter back saying no. We went to the Ombudsman (who originally lost our letter so we got put further down the waiting list). After 2 years our case was looked into. The Halifax provided wrong information on our employment and said we had taken it out 4 months before we had started the policy! We explained this to the Ombudsman but still they believed the Halifax and their lies.

    We have now gone to appeal and are waiting for the findings. We highlighted all the lies that the Halifax had made and even sent all the paperwork we still have for that policy (including the booklet they provide you with). There has been a further delay with the Ombudsman as they are looking into the recent court ruling before making any decisions!

    I just wondered if anyone else had been successful with a claim against the Halifax or if they had to go through as much trouble as we have.
Page 1
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 2nd Mar 16, 7:11 PM
    • 84,099 Posts
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    dunstonh
    • #2
    • 2nd Mar 16, 7:11 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Mar 16, 7:11 PM
    When we applied for a mortgage in 2002 with the Halifax we were advised that we had to have payment protection otherwise our Mortgage would not be agreed.
    That is a very weak complaint. It is a allegation of something said with no evidence to back it up. Indeed, every fraudulent/try-it-on complaint makes the same allegation (including half of all PPI complaints where people dont even have PPI).

    A few years later we realised we were paying over the odds and the policy was not correct for us and changed to another provider.
    that works against you as it indicates that you believe you felt the policy type was important.

    We explained this to the Ombudsman but still they believed the Halifax and their lies.
    How would the ombudsman know that you are not telling lies?

    They cant just believe what you tell them. The evidence has to point towards a wrongdoing.

    We highlighted all the lies that the Halifax had made and even sent all the paperwork we still have for that policy (including the booklet they provide you with).
    You keep saying lies. However, what lies are you referring to?

    Errors in data are not unexpected considering 2002 is pre-regulation of insurance and it was 14 years ago. Back then, audit trails on insurance applications would be minimal.

    There has been a further delay with the Ombudsman as they are looking into the recent court ruling before making any decisions!
    The court case ruling shouldnt have any impact on MPPI. Commissions on MPPI are typically around 25-35%. The FCA are looking at a 50% limit.

    I just wondered if anyone else had been successful with a claim against the Halifax or if they had to go through as much trouble as we have.
    Halifax tend to roll over easily on PPI. Even MPPI which has fewer issues. So, hearing that they did not uphold your complaint is unusual. Normally, if you have the Halifax TMPP, they pay out on the MPPI segment but reject the non-PPI segments (life assurance, CI cover, income protection). However, given how weak your complaint is, maybe they decided there were no grounds in your case.

    In respect of the FOS, most MPPI complaints get rejected. It is considered a more important product covering a significant debt. You went on to buy an alternative indicating you felt there was a need for coverage. So, I can see why your complaint was rejected (based solely on what you have typed). The ombudsman rarely override an adjudicator on simple cases (like PPI).
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from a Financial Adviser local to you.
    • Nearlyold
    • By Nearlyold 2nd Mar 16, 7:14 PM
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    Nearlyold
    • #3
    • 2nd Mar 16, 7:14 PM
    • #3
    • 2nd Mar 16, 7:14 PM
    No doubt some customers will have been successful though whether they had to go to so much trouble will depend on their circumstances.

    What is not clear from your post is what your complaint actually was, the fact that you switched to another mortgage PPI provider shows you did have a need for such a policy, could you be a bit more precise as to why the policy was not correct for you and was missold.

    NB Just a guess but I wonder if Halifax gave the date of your PPI application rather than the start date as I assume it didn't start until your mortgage commenced
    • magpiecottage
    • By magpiecottage 4th Mar 16, 8:54 AM
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    magpiecottage
    • #4
    • 4th Mar 16, 8:54 AM
    • #4
    • 4th Mar 16, 8:54 AM
    We explained this to the Ombudsman but still they believed the Halifax and their lies.

    We have now gone to appeal and are waiting for the findings. We highlighted all the lies that the Halifax had made
    Originally posted by CatherineMarsh
    I know for a fact that a decision by an ombudsman cannot be appealed, so this statement cannot be true.

    So, by your definition, you are lying.

    In reality, as others reading will appreciate, you have made a mistake. Your have dealt with an adjudicator, not an ombudsman. Now an ombudsman will decide whether they agree with the adjudicator or not.

    However, it is wrong for you to assume that just because somebody has a different stance to you that they are lying. They too may be mistaken.

    Nearlyold has suggested one possible reason why they gave a different start date. Not only is it plausible but if they are relying on the application form it demonstrates that they have indeed looked at what evidence is available.

    It is also quite possible that you simply remember something that never actually happened. That is a phenomenon that is well documented.

    Throwing round unsubstantiated allegations of lying does not support your case but suggests you might not be acting entirely rationally.
    It is a statement of fact, not an advertisement, that I investigate complaints against small firms of financial advisers for a living.

    That is why I know my way around both the FCA Handbook (for financial businesses) and the Conduct of Authorised Persons Rules (for CMCs).
    • Mersey
    • By Mersey 4th Mar 16, 11:48 AM
    • 1,106 Posts
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    Mersey
    • #5
    • 4th Mar 16, 11:48 AM
    • #5
    • 4th Mar 16, 11:48 AM
    CatherineMarsh "When we applied for a mortgage in 2002 with the Halifax we were advised that we had to have payment protection otherwise our Mortgage would not be agreed."



    Yes, this often constitutes mis-selling (as much as others on here don't like the fact that banks are having to pay out £ Billions due to their past errors). It's essentially your evidence v the bank so that's why you may or may not succeed.


    There's no guarantee you'll succeed; but, it's certainly worth pursuing and sadly can take years for the FOS or bank to look at the matter.
    Please be polite to OPs and remember this is a site for Claimants and Appellants to seek redress against their bank, ex-boss or retailer. If they wanted morality or the view of the IoD or Bank they'd ask them.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 4th Mar 16, 12:15 PM
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    dunstonh
    • #6
    • 4th Mar 16, 12:15 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Mar 16, 12:15 PM
    Yes, this often constitutes mis-selling (as much as others on here don't like the fact that banks are having to pay out £ Billions due to their past errors). It's essentially your evidence v the bank so that's why you may or may not succeed.
    its not a case of not liking. It is a case of reality. It is a valid complaint reason (assuming it wasnt required - a number of deals in the 90s did require it). However, it is one of the weakest complaint reasons going. Very few complaints succeed on that particular point due to lack of evidence. They may go on to succeed on another point. Even something that wasnt raised.

    However, in this case, the complaint was rejected by Halifax (which is unusual for them as they normally refund the MPPI element of the TMPP with little argument). It has gone on to be rejected by an adjudicator at the FOS. Not unexpected as most MPPI complaints are rejected. It is now in the hands of an ombudsman and they only overturn around 11% of adjudicator complaints and that tends to be in complicated cases (not PPI).

    I think it is only fair to point out the weaknesses in the case and the statistical likelihood that the complaint is going to fail. There may be a surprise in store and the ombudsman does overrule. But nothing said so far by the OP suggests that is likely given the weakness of the complaint.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from a Financial Adviser local to you.
    • Andante1617
    • By Andante1617 22nd Sep 16, 12:53 PM
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    Andante1617
    • #7
    • 22nd Sep 16, 12:53 PM
    • #7
    • 22nd Sep 16, 12:53 PM
    Hi....have just joined this forum in the hope that you can help me make a decision about whether to try to get back what is called Mortgage Protection. We were told by Halifax in 1996 that we had to have this so that we could get a mortgage to buy a house. The payments are £46+ every month. On finding this document, it appears to be a Life Insurance Policy, which was not explained at the time. We understood that we had to have it to get a mortgage and the words 'Mortgage Protection Policy' are written in large font on the front. We have almost paid off our mortgage now (and incidentally, our mortgage is no longer with the Halifax)....but we are still paying out this amount to the same provider (renamed 'St. Andrew's Life')....Surely this product was' missold to us and we should stop paying out and attempt to claim money back. What do others think? Are we likely to be successful if we make a claim? Thank you.
    • zx81
    • By zx81 22nd Sep 16, 12:59 PM
    • 8,695 Posts
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    zx81
    • #8
    • 22nd Sep 16, 12:59 PM
    • #8
    • 22nd Sep 16, 12:59 PM
    Surely this product was' missold to us
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    Why is that?
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 22nd Sep 16, 1:29 PM
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    dunstonh
    • #9
    • 22nd Sep 16, 1:29 PM
    • #9
    • 22nd Sep 16, 1:29 PM
    We were told by Halifax in 1996 that we had to have this so that we could get a mortgage to buy a house.
    Quite normal in 1996. Banks used to insist on life assurance with mortgagees. Nowadays, they tend to only insist on it with commercial borrowing.

    On finding this document, it appears to be a Life Insurance Policy, which was not explained at the time.
    Sorry. i don't believe you. I suspect it is more likely that your memory recollection is not strong.

    To get life assurance, you would have gone through a medical questionnaire, been issued with a quote and a reasons why letter. This would have been followed up with another quote sent directly by the insurer with the cancellation rights and a policy document when the policy went into force.

    Surely this product was' missold to us and we should stop paying out and attempt to claim money back.
    Nothing you have said suggests any hint of mis-sale.

    Are we likely to be successful if we make a claim?
    No. Unless you are immortal, there appears to be no wrongdoing here.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from a Financial Adviser local to you.
    • Moneyineptitude
    • By Moneyineptitude 22nd Sep 16, 2:36 PM
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    Moneyineptitude
    On finding this document, it appears to be a Life Insurance Policy, which was not explained at the time.
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    So you kept the document you signed explaining that you had Life Insurance and twenty years on want to complain that no one explained this to you? You don't see any contradiction there?

    Surely this product was' missold to us and we should stop paying out and attempt to claim money back.
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    Why do you think your Life Assurance was mis-sold? Are you somehow immune to death?
    If you stop paying the cover will stop, have you now paid off the mortgage or don't you care about your dependents?

    I'm afraid not every insurance was mis-sold and some of your logic seems awry.
    • Andante1617
    • By Andante1617 22nd Sep 16, 6:01 PM
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    Andante1617
    Thanks for your comments. My point is that we were told we had to have this policy because we wanted a mortgage. It is clearly named 'Mortgage Protection Policy' and thus would appear to be directly linked to a mortgage. If we had been told that this product was in fact a Life Insurance policy (which I did not know anything about twenty years ago and have only in recent years realised what they are) then we would have been wise to look elsewhere for a cheaper product. What it actually was was not made clear to us, nor were we told we were at liberty to look elsewhere for a similar product. I repeat, we were led to believe we had to take it in order to get a mortgage from Halifax. This would seem to be deliberate deceit on part of the Halifax.
    • Moneyineptitude
    • By Moneyineptitude 22nd Sep 16, 6:26 PM
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    Moneyineptitude
    My point is that we were told we had to have this policy because we wanted a mortgage.
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    Yes. This was allowed. The insurance was compulsory in order to get the mortgage in 1996. This has already been pointed to you.
    It is clearly named 'Mortgage Protection Policy' and thus would appear to be directly linked to a mortgage.
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    ...and your point is?
    If we had been told that this product was in fact a Life Insurance policy (which I did not know anything about twenty years ago and have only in recent years realised what they are) then we would have been wise to look elsewhere for a cheaper product.
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    It was for you to shop around. It's not for the Bank or lender to do this. Again, no mis-selling. How can you say you didn't know what Life Insurance was?
    What it actually was was not made clear to us, nor were we told we were at liberty to look elsewhere for a similar product.
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    Why didn't you read the documentation before signing it? Why didn't you read it after signing it? Could it be that you did understand it (at the time) and twenty years on you've simply forgotten? You weren't at liberty to "look elsewhere" unless you were also looking for another mortgage.
    I repeat, we were led to believe we had to take it in order to get a mortgage from Halifax.
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    I repeat also, you did have to take it in order to obtain the mortgage. This was not mis-selling. It would only be mis-sold if the insurance was optional and you were told that it wasn't.

    You don't appear to have read the earlier responses. No need to repeat your earlier "complaint".

    This is not PPI, it's Life Assurance linked to your mortgage but not paid as part of your mortgage.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 22nd Sep 16, 7:05 PM
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    dunstonh
    My point is that we were told we had to have this policy because we wanted a mortgage.
    Yes. We saw that. Banks were and still are allowed to make it a condition of borrowing.

    It is clearly named 'Mortgage Protection Policy' and thus would appear to be directly linked to a mortgage.
    It is not directly linked. There is an indirect link. If one of you died, the other would get the payout but it would be up to them whether they paid off the mortgage or not.

    If we had been told that this product was in fact a Life Insurance policy (which I did not know anything about twenty years ago and have only in recent years realised what they are) then we would have been wise to look elsewhere for a cheaper product.
    What did you think it was then when you were being asked the life assurance questions and the paperwork showed the amount that would be paid out on death?

    What it actually was was not made clear to us, nor were we told we were at liberty to look elsewhere for a similar product.
    They dont need to tell you that. I cant remember the year that the lenders were stopped from telling you that you had to use their in-house product. It was some time in the 90s. However, even if yours is after that date, they dont have to tell you that you can shop around. They just cant tell you that you have to use theirs.

    I repeat, we were led to believe we had to take it in order to get a mortgage from Halifax. This would seem to be deliberate deceit on part of the Halifax.
    Do you have any evidence to support your allegation that they lied to you? Assuming they did lie to you and your memory recollection after 20 years is not as strong
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. Different people have different needs and what is right for one person may not be for another. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from a Financial Adviser local to you.
    • -taff
    • By -taff 23rd Sep 16, 9:51 AM
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    -taff
    This insurance was a condition of your mortgage at the time you took out your mortgage.
    It was not missold.
    It's not PPI.

    You have nothing to complain about.
    • magpiecottage
    • By magpiecottage 23rd Sep 16, 5:40 PM
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    magpiecottage
    We were told by Halifax in 1996 that we had to have this so that we could get a mortgage to buy a house.
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    In 1996, Halifax did require life cover for all but repayment mortgages. So if your mortgage was entirely on a capital repayment basis you might have a valid complaint. Otherwise not.

    Even if it was entirely on a capital repayment basis, the word "we" tells us that there was more than one of you who would have been left to repay the debt if the other died, so life cover seems to have been suitable for you even if not compulsory. So I suspect FOS would be unwilling to uphold a complaint even if you could prove it had been incorrectly presented to you as compulsory - a proof which I suspect you will not have.

    On finding this document, it appears to be a Life Insurance Policy, which was not explained at the time
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    .By the start of 1995, life assurance companies issued clear "Key Features" documents which explained what policies were, what they did and the main commitments you made and main risks. So I find it hard to believe you would not have had this.
    'Mortgage Protection Policy' are written in large font on the front.
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    I think this rather proves my point!

    Are we likely to be successful if we make a claim? Thank you.
    Originally posted by Andante1617
    Not if the complaint landed on my desk - but I do not work for HBOS or Lloyds Banking Group.
    It is a statement of fact, not an advertisement, that I investigate complaints against small firms of financial advisers for a living.

    That is why I know my way around both the FCA Handbook (for financial businesses) and the Conduct of Authorised Persons Rules (for CMCs).
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