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  • FIRST POST
    • adam89p
    • By adam89p 12th Feb 16, 7:40 PM
    • 10Posts
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    adam89p
    UKPC response to appeal
    • #1
    • 12th Feb 16, 7:40 PM
    UKPC response to appeal 12th Feb 16 at 7:40 PM
    Hi there,

    At the beginning of January I received a PCN from UKPC. I was parked behind my office on what I can only assume as private land and have been doing so a couple of days a week since November. Before Xmas, I had not noticed UKPC notices but it seems that over the Xmas break, UKPC have come in put up signs and started ticketing cars (as not had a problem before Xmas)

    Upon receiving the ticket, I checked the newbie post, found out they were members of BPA, waited the recommended time and then sent in my appeal using the recommended template for BPA on their website and requested a written response.

    Today I received their response (dated 3/2/16).which I have written out below:

    Thank you for your recent correspondence in relation to the above parking charge.

    In order to make a final decision regarding your appeal, please can you provide a copy of a valid permit to our Appeals department within 21 days of this letter.

    All of our signage is fully compliant with the guidelines set out within the BPA Code of Practice and we reject the notion that is in in any way unclear or ambiguous.

    The contract UKPC has with the owner or occupier of the land (which authorises UKPC to enter in a contract with the driver requiring the payment of Parking Charges in respect of parking of the vehicle on the land) contains a confidentiality clause and as such we are not in a position to provide the contract to you.
    As a member of the Approved Operator Scheme, UKPC are audited by the British Parking Association to ensure that we have all relevant contracts in place. UKPC will provide the court with a copy of this in full if they require it, or can provide a written statement to this effect from those party to the contract. We are also more than happy to provide confirmation to the independent assessors that we are authorised to manage parking at this site.

    We can confirm that parking management at this site has been contracted to UK Parking Control Ltd.

    Paragraph 9(2)(b) of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, states that we must inform the registered keeper that the driver of a vehicle is required to pay the parking charge in full. It also notes that as we do not know the driver's name or current postal address, the registered keeper, if they were not the driver at the time, should inform the operator (i.e. us) of the name and current address of the driver and pass the notice to them. The Act also warns that if, at the end of the period of 28 days (beginning with the day after the Parking Charge is sent), the parking charge has not been paid in full and the operator does not know both the name and current address of the driver, the operator has the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from the registered keeper. This warning is given under Paragraph 9(2)(f) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms act 2012 and is subject to us complying with the applicable conditions under Schedule 4 of that Act (which we consider we do comply with, to the letter).

    Failure to provide this information will give us no alternative other than to make our final decision based on the previous information received, at this stage a POPLA verification code will be provided.

    Further correspondence can be sent to our postal address below or on our website (unable to provide link but its the appeals website). Please can you ensure that your parking charge details are attached when sending further correspondence.

    The Parking charge has been on hold whilst under appeal and may be settled in full at the reduced rate of £60.

    PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER. UKPC REGULARLY TAKES MOTORISTS TO COURT WHO IGNORE THEIR PARKING CHARGES. PLEASE SEE ukparkingcontrol . com / parking - l egalities FOR FURTHER INFORMATION


    So no POPLA code has been provided. What do I do next? Do I wait for the POPLA then sent the POPLA appeal?

    I am unsure as to who the landowner is and therefore who unsure who to send the complaint to.

    Any advice would be much appreciated.

    AP
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Feb 16, 7:50 PM
    • 52,907 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 12th Feb 16, 7:50 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Feb 16, 7:50 PM
    What do I do next? Do I wait for the POPLA then sent the POPLA appeal?
    Yes, you just ignore that and wait. They often send a letter like that, asking for:

    - a blue badge (if a disabled bay)

    or

    - a permit (if a permit bay)

    or

    - the driver's details (because they get desperate and want to know - we don't tell them!).

    Then if you ignore it they will follow this with the rejection letter in a few weeks. Take no action yet. And by the way, people who waste their time replying to that holding letter, still get a rejection letter!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-02-2016 at 7:53 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • adam89p
    • By adam89p 12th Feb 16, 8:17 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    adam89p
    • #3
    • 12th Feb 16, 8:17 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Feb 16, 8:17 PM
    Thanks, incidentally I have received another PCN this week...I will follow the same process.
    • adam89p
    • By adam89p 18th May 16, 1:36 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    adam89p
    • #4
    • 18th May 16, 1:36 PM
    • #4
    • 18th May 16, 1:36 PM
    Just an update, I received another rejection letter on the 14th March rejecting my appeal for the second PCN and then I've received two letters (both on the 28th April) with my POPLA reference number.

    I have responded to these letters with evidence of a colleague of mine who had her ticket cancelled following an appeal. I have sent the same evidence along with obtaining proof of postage and delivery. At no point have I admitted that I was the driver and have requested they respond to my letter within 14 days (sent 6/5/16) and no response has been given.

    I will now have to submit a POPLA appeal as I haven't heard anything back but wanted some advice on the best wording for this.

    Any help much appreciated.
    • adam89p
    • By adam89p 18th May 16, 1:55 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    adam89p
    • #5
    • 18th May 16, 1:55 PM
    • #5
    • 18th May 16, 1:55 PM
    Just out of interest, I have not received a notice to keeper letter that I can remember. What do I do if I have not received a NTK for either PCN.
    • Bluecoll
    • By Bluecoll 19th May 16, 5:59 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Bluecoll
    • #6
    • 19th May 16, 5:59 PM
    • #6
    • 19th May 16, 5:59 PM
    I'm in the same situation as in I got a PCN in January and a similar letter to yours - three of them in fact - and never got a NTK. As far as I can tell that's a good way of winning the POPLA appeal as they can only go after the keeper if they've followed all the legislation, part of which is the NTK.

    What's gone through my mind, what's to stop UKPC writing a retospective NTK, backdate it and claim they sent it at the time?
    • adam89p
    • By adam89p 23rd May 16, 4:06 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    adam89p
    • #7
    • 23rd May 16, 4:06 PM
    • #7
    • 23rd May 16, 4:06 PM
    I am just about to make two POPLA appeals for the two PCNs

    Can someone have a readthrough to ensure that all is good and any additional advice people can provide would be much appreciated.

    "Dear POPLA Adjudicator,

    I am the registered keeper of vehicle xxxxxx and am appealing a parking charge from UKPC.

    I submit the points below to show that I am not liable for the parking charge:
    1. The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 – no keeper liability.
    2. Inadequate signage or lighting, forming no contract with drivers
    3. No standing or authority to pursue charges nor form contracts with drivers


    1. The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 – no keeper liability.
    To date I have not been issued a Notice to Keeper (NTK) by UKPC. As a notice to driver was provided on the vehicle, an NTK is required to be issued no sooner than 28 days after, or no later than 56 days after the service of that notice. This stipulation is laid out in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA).

    The alleged infringement occurred on xx/01/2016 and from my understanding the NTK was required to reach me by xx/03/2016 . As none of the mandatory information set out by Schedule 4 paragraphs 8 and 9 of the PoFA has been made available to me as Registered Keeper the conditions set out by paragraph 6 of Schedule 4 has not been complied with. Therefore, there can be no keeper liability.

    The keeper liability requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 must be complied with, where the appellant is the registered keeper, as in this case. One of these requirements is the issue of a NTK compliant with certain provisions. This operator failed to serve any NTK at all. As there has been no admission as to who may have parked the car and no evidence of this person has been produced by the operator, it has been held by POPLA multiple times in 2015 that a parking charge with no NTK cannot be enforced against the registered keeper.

    Relevant details of PoFA 2012, Schedule 4 are provided for your reference here:

    ''Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle

    4(1)The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

    (2)The right under this paragraph applies only if—

    (a)the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met

    Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4

    6(1)The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)—

    (a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8...

    (2)If a notice to driver has been given, any subsequent notice to keeper must be given in accordance with paragraph 8.

    8(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

    (4)The notice must be given by—

    (a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or

    (b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

    (5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 28 days following the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to driver was given.''



    2. Inadequate signage or lighting

    At the time of the alleged (denied) contravention it was very dark and whilst pictures shown later in day show the signs in the dayligh, the only notices are high up on posts, and very poorly lit and are therefore unreadable during certain times of the day.

    Unreadable signage breaches Appendix B of the British Parking Association’s (BPA) Code of Practice (the BPA CoP)which states that terms on entrance signs must be clearly readable without a driver having to turn away from the road ahead. A Notice is not imported into the contract unless brought home so prominently that the party 'must' have known of it and agreed terms beforehand. Nothing about this Operator's onerous inflated 'parking charges' was sufficiently prominent and it is clear that the requirements for forming a contract (i.e. consideration flowing between the two parties, offer, acceptance and fairness and transparency of terms offered in good faith) were not satisfied.

    The BPA CoP also requires that signs must be visible and all terms prominent and legible at night, if an operator enforces terms in the hours of darkness. This was not the case according to the driver, as the car was parked at a time when it was dark

    Also I would point out that keeper liability under the POFA Schedule 4, requires 'adequate notice of the charge' so that a driver has every opportunity to have terms and the 'parking charge' prominently and unequivocally drawn to his/her attention before parking. This was not the case in this dark car park where the terms were illegible and not in a position to be lit by headlights before the act of parking, so no contract was capable of being formed.



    3. No standing or authority to pursue charges nor form contracts with drivers
    I believe that this Operator has no proprietary interest in the land, so they have no standing to make contracts with drivers in their own right, nor to pursue charges for breach in their own name. In the absence of such title, UKPC must have assignment of rights from the landowner to pursue charges for breach in their own right, including at court level. A commercial site agent for the true landholder has no automatic standing nor authority in their own right which would meet the strict requirements of section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice. I therefore put UKPC to strict proof to provide POPLA and myself with an un-redacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract between UKPC and the landowner, not just another agent or retailer or other non-landholder, because it will still not be clear that the landowner has authorised the necessary rights to UKPC.

    Section 7 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice requires parking operators to have the written authority from the landowner to operate on the land. Section 7.1 states:

    “If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”.

    Section 7.3 states: “The written authorisation must also set out:

    a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.''

    I do not believe that this operator's mere site agreement as a contractor issuing PCNs and letters 'on behalf of' a landowner gives the parking firm any rights to sue in their own name. This is insufficient to comply with the BPA Code of Practice and not enough to hold me liable in law to pay UKPC

    I put UKPC to strict proof of compliance with all of the above requirements."
    • bod1467
    • By bod1467 23rd May 16, 4:09 PM
    • 14,797 Posts
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    bod1467
    • #8
    • 23rd May 16, 4:09 PM
    • #8
    • 23rd May 16, 4:09 PM
    Regarding NTKs (previous posts) ... if you responded to (appealed) a windscreen PCN then you likely won't get an NTK. (UKPC are bad [good for us] at remembering to send an NTK, in time or at all, if they receive a response to a windscreen PCN). If you responded to a postal PCN then that was the NTK.
    • adam89p
    • By adam89p 24th May 16, 12:11 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    adam89p
    • #9
    • 24th May 16, 12:11 PM
    • #9
    • 24th May 16, 12:11 PM
    This was a windscreen PCN both times
    • hayter860
    • By hayter860 12th Jan 17, 3:34 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    hayter860
    Hello there. I had the same response as above. is it correct to ignore this stage? Im only asking as I am having trouble navigating this site! I used a template from this site to appeal original windscreen ticket.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 17, 3:38 PM
    • 52,907 Posts
    • 66,436 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Hello there. I had the same response as above. is it correct to ignore this stage? Im only asking as I am having trouble navigating this site! I used a template from this site to appeal original windscreen ticket.
    Originally posted by hayter860
    It is not correct to ignore, once you have a POPLA code in a rejection letter.

    But you do ignore this one, and just wait for the POPLA code if this is all you have received:
    In order to make a final decision regarding your appeal, please can you provide a copy of a valid permit to our Appeals department within 21 days of this letter.
    Then when you get the POPLA code, you go to the NEWBIES thread at/near the top of the forum and read post #3 of it, which gives you recently updated POPLA appeal template wording. Your main point at POPLA being 'no keeper liability' due to no NTK being received.

    My signature tells you how to navigate the forum, click where my sign (below) tells you and you are looking at today's threads instead of last year's!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • adam89p
    • By adam89p 9th Jan 18, 3:51 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    adam89p
    Just FYI to all, the PCNs were cancelled following the POPLA appeal
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 9th Jan 18, 4:55 PM
    • 3,779 Posts
    • 3,838 Thanks
    DoaM
    Wow ... almost exactly a year later!
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • adam89p
    • By adam89p 10th Jan 18, 1:17 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    adam89p
    haha, I realized that I hadn't updated the thread to let you know they had been cancelled so thought it would be nice to let you know.
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