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  • FIRST POST
    • peadar
    • By peadar 8th Jan 16, 7:57 PM
    • 21Posts
    • 22Thanks
    peadar
    Caught turning on airport double red lines by camera van
    • #1
    • 8th Jan 16, 7:57 PM
    Caught turning on airport double red lines by camera van 8th Jan 16 at 7:57 PM
    I picked my son up this evening from Liverpool Airport, where the approach roads are double red-lined (and fairly well signed as such). I had arranged to meet in Drop Off 2 carpark (first 20 minutes are free), took the signposted turning for it but couldn't find it and turned around in an entrance to retrace my route. As I did so and waited for traffic before turning, I saw him running along just behind me and let him climb in.

    Of course, the Vehicle Control van appeared on cue, and I'm expecting a 100 fine in the post. Peel Holdings use cameras for evidence of breach of car park T&Cs (I don't think it's a 'fine' as such).

    I suspect that because of the Supreme Court ruling on 4 November 2015 basically okaying private parking fines, they would ultimately go to County Court. Which nowadays is just getting someone to fill in forms online. Is it worth complaining or contesting in light of the recent ruling?
Page 3
    • yotmon
    • By yotmon 25th Feb 16, 10:32 PM
    • 303 Posts
    • 369 Thanks
    yotmon
    Sure. But I think I'd prefer to get them into court - they have declined the opportunity to provide evidence of a contract, and this idea that a big block of words on a stick can be somehow designed to be readable in the dark "relative to the average approach speed of vehicles", is ludicrous. This shabby 'welcome' to Liverpool needs to be stopped.

    The next step should be court, messing around threatening it is a waste of time.
    Originally posted by peadar
    But unfortunately you cannot force someones hand to sue you. You can tell them to 'put up or shut up' but this won't force them to take action. I read on here or 'prankster's blog that multi-partnership meetings takes place at JLA which includes local authority Councillors from all the boroughs of Merseyside. I don't know if you live in the area but you certainly could lobby one of these elected members to argue your corner for you.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 26th Feb 16, 6:47 AM
    • 823 Posts
    • 1,431 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    I read on here or 'prankster's blog that multi-partnership meetings takes place at JLA which includes local authority Councillors from all the boroughs of Merseyside. I don't know if you live in the area but you certainly could lobby one of these elected members to argue your corner for you.
    You'll have just missed the last one [12th Feb 2016] but there will be another along in about 3 months. Gives you time to get others and go along as a group. See here for the next dates

    http://www.ukaccs.info/liverpool/
    "One thing you realise about the gangs and the criminals [and parking companies] is that it's acting by another means. If you go into a bank or a shop and you want them to believe that you're going to shoot them [or go to court], that's an acting exercise. Nine out of 10 delinquents [and their solicitors] are frustrated actors". Peter Mullan, actor
    • pgres71
    • By pgres71 26th Feb 16, 10:30 AM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    pgres71
    Can I just clarify something. Got a PCN last year for stopping for 10 seconds at Liverpool JLA. Appealed initially and appeal was turned down. Have ignored pretty much everything since. Today had a letter from BW Legal to say that they have been instructed by VCS and threatening a CCJ if I don't pay. DO I continue to ignore at this point until I actually receive a CCJ? Thank you in advance.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 26th Feb 16, 10:42 AM
    • 2,059 Posts
    • 2,458 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    Hi and welcome to the forum ........

    VCS have yet to take a chance on court

    so in all probability you have received a debtcrawler letter


    so ......

    have a read through this

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5035663


    and if you still need advice please start your own thread ...

    good luck

    Ralph
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 26th Feb 16, 11:02 AM
    • 5,289 Posts
    • 3,839 Thanks
    The Deep
    They cannot threaten you with a CCJ, all they can do is take you to court, before which they must issue a letter before action compliant with Civil Procedure Rules. Whether you get a CCJ or not depends on the judge finding for them, you not paying any award, and IIRC them paying a fee to register the judgement. If they have indeed written as you state, report them to the SRA.

    However, I suspect that the letter is peppered with words such as "may", might" and "could", in which case it is just huff, puff, and bluff.

    The fact is that airport tickets are nearly always unenforceable. The PPCs know this and are loathe to have their scam exposed in court.
    Last edited by The Deep; 26-02-2016 at 11:05 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • pgres71
    • By pgres71 26th Feb 16, 11:12 AM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    pgres71
    Thank you for the response. Quite right it threatens County Court Proceedings not a CCJ. It also says, "we require payment of the balance in full, or alternatively a detailed notice of your reasons for non payment, within 10 days from the date of this letter. If you fail to comply with either of the aforementioned requests, we will commence legal proceedings against you." So it does say "will". So do I give them detailed reasons or do I ignore?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 26th Feb 16, 11:36 AM
    • 5,289 Posts
    • 3,839 Thanks
    The Deep
    So do I give them detailed reasons or do I ignore?


    I would ignore, a court case could bring their house tumbling down around them.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • dazster
    • By dazster 26th Feb 16, 11:49 AM
    • 487 Posts
    • 820 Thanks
    dazster
    What you do is to start your own thread.
    • pgres71
    • By pgres71 26th Feb 16, 1:48 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    pgres71
    Ok. When I get bollocked for starting a thread by another busy !!!! I will blame you.
    • peadar
    • By peadar 28th Feb 16, 8:16 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    peadar
    So VCS sent a rejection via snail-mail. It seemed to be a mail-merged or templated response, and there were indications they hadn't actually read my challenge. They ignored most of the points of objection, saying that they would instead respond to them in court. I emailed a brief response to VCS (vehiclecontrol.co.uk) to say ok, let's do that soon.

    A day later, a named individual (not the one who signed the letter) at sister company Excel Parking (excelparking.co.uk), who also has an email address with Automatic Number Plate Recognition International (anpr-international.com – the server had this as the return-path, both domains have the same IP), opened the email in Outlook 2007 and read it.

    So it is being passed around.

    I would not be surprised to receive a Letter before Claim in the near future. The verbose signage may seem bizarre to the person driving by on the Clapham omnibus (and to any academic with any connection to serious research in psychology, semiotics, perceptual skills etc) but I suspect they paid someone handsomely to revise it and may feel considerable false confidence about it.

    If and when I get a Letter before Claim, I will post here?
    • peadar
    • By peadar 28th Feb 16, 8:26 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    peadar
    I don't know if you live in the area but you certainly could lobby one of these elected members to argue your corner for you.
    Originally posted by yotmon
    Yes, I'm local. And I've seen how things have changed around the airport over the years. Fifteen years ago I recall parking on the dual carriageway approach road (back then it wasn't even double-yellowed) before doing a day-trip to Luton. The EasyJet back was seriously delayed, and I found a parking ticket (a real one) when I got back to the car, as I'd parked on a dual carriageway after dark. Those were the days!

    Customers of the airport were gradually corralled, to maximise Mr Renshaw-Smith's salary (there never was a 'congestion' problem), starting with double-yellow lines. At some point, I'm not sure when, a 2 charge was introduced just for picking up and dropping off. I presume this was done in tandem with the red lines and vans, to generate said income.

    I will lobby local councillors as you suggest, thanks. The Mayor has already spoken out about the damage it does to Liverpool's tourist economy, and there are frequent features in the local press.
    • yotmon
    • By yotmon 29th Feb 16, 2:04 AM
    • 303 Posts
    • 369 Thanks
    yotmon
    So VCS sent a rejection via snail-mail. It seemed to be a mail-merged or templated response, and there were indications they hadn't actually read my challenge. They ignored most of the points of objection, saying that they would instead respond to them in court. I emailed a brief response to VCS (vehiclecontrol.co.uk) to say ok, let's do that soon.

    A day later, a named individual (not the one who signed the letter) at sister company Excel Parking (excelparking.co.uk), who also has an email address with Automatic Number Plate Recognition International (anpr-international.com the server had this as the return-path, both domains have the same IP), opened the email in Outlook 2007 and read it.

    So it is being passed around.
    Originally posted by peadar
    Not quite sure if this is legal or not - although Excel is a sister company to VCS they are 2 separate companies, so this could be a breach of the data protection act. Did your e-mail contain personal details such as your name, address and vehicle details. Could be worth looking into, the more you're a pain in their side the more they will want you to go away.
    • peadar
    • By peadar 2nd Mar 16, 7:07 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    peadar
    Not quite sure if this is legal or not - although Excel is a sister company to VCS they are 2 separate companies, so this could be a breach of the data protection act. Did your e-mail contain personal details such as your name, address and vehicle details.
    Originally posted by yotmon
    Yes, it contained those details. As they share that data with all sorts, including their agents (debt collectors and suchlike), presumably they have (somehow) acquired the right to do so with their sister companies. I could check with the DVLA (don't know on what basis they gave the data to VCS in any case), if nobody here knows for sure.

    Looks like they're ignoring my request to bring their 'contract' and 'charge' to court and have started a sequence of letters threatening to..bring it to court. I had threatened to pursue them for harassment under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997 if they did something as pointless as that (I don't think they have actually read anything I wrote!), as such communications are clearly unjustified in light of my request that we take it to court.

    A Court found against British Gas a few years back, establishing potential liability for harassment even when material is automatically generated. I think it would hinge on a systemic intention to cause distress and anxiety, but I am not sure if I'll have the time to put the case together.
    • peadar
    • By peadar 22nd Sep 16, 7:31 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    peadar
    Letter of Claim
    So after seven months of junk mail from a wide variety of outfits, I finally received about a week ago what looks like more of the same nonsense (with fresh demands for additional money), but has the heading "Letter of Claim".

    I sent a full written response to the 'parking charge notice' in January, which VCS did not address. I consequently asked them back then to start county court proceedings, given that they said they would only answer my points in court.

    There is a bunch of stuff that is supposed to be sent in response to a letter before claim, but do I really need to do this and repeat my response now, just because they've called it a 'Letter of Claim'?
    Last edited by peadar; 22-09-2016 at 7:35 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Sep 16, 7:35 PM
    • 38,389 Posts
    • 49,825 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Is it from VCS or from BW Legal?

    Search the forum for all the other recent ones exactly the same and copy what they've used as a reply. Do not ignore a LBC.

    If it's from BW Legal then you will find HUNDREDS of threads on here and on pepipoo which cover it all, we have run out of steam in repeating it all if this is BW Legal, seeing as a search finds everything already said umpteen times over.

    Oh, and do not reply to any private message from a poster with less than 1000 posts to their name here. We deal with these issues openly on the forum and any pm could be from anyone at all (even the parking firm) and is not recommended to be replied to/read.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • peadar
    • By peadar 22nd Sep 16, 9:49 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    peadar
    Is it from VCS or from BW Legal?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    The latter.

    Search the forum for all the other recent ones exactly the same and copy what they've used as a reply. Do not ignore a LBC.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I have - and some say to do precisely that, i.e. ignore it. e.g."The 'Letter of Claim" is simply another debt collection letter - since it is not a genuine LBCC - so there is no need to respond in any event'.

    The letter is pretty much indistinguishable from all the other junk mail that I've ignored - 'please pay the balance by..to prevent legal action being taken...to avoid proceedings..pay...how to make a payment..pay...call us today' - with the exception that the words "Letter of Claim" at the top.

    The one before that had "Final Notice". Before that a letter promising they'd seek instructions to commence legal proceedings in the form of a County Court Claim Form in the County Court within 16 days (this was well over 2 months ago).
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Sep 16, 9:58 PM
    • 10,272 Posts
    • 15,146 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I'd err on the side of safety and work on providing a response. None of this stuff is precise science, and the Excel/VCS/BWL strategy has, as yet, not fully played out, so with the best will in the world we can't accurately predict how this will all end.

    From dealing with many cases here in the wake of Beavis, those who ignore (quasi) legal threats seem the most vulnerable to receiving full-blown court papers. Make sure you're not one of those by responding robustly.

    Punch a bully on the nose, and find out just how brave they really are - you've nothing to lose.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Sep 16, 10:29 PM
    • 38,389 Posts
    • 49,825 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I think you've read slightly older threads if you think people are told not to reply to a BW legal letter. I can't recall that being advised all Summer. Always respond robustly and complain to the SRA and CSA as you will see in lots of threads (e.g. LoveNorfolk's thread for example).
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • peadar
    • By peadar 22nd Sep 16, 10:51 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    peadar
    The quote was from a 30 July pepipoo post. I've also seen responses that read as if they're submissions to court, but this form letter is identical to all the other 'threatening' letters, with 'Letter of claim' bunged on top of it.

    I guess I could copy and paste my reasons for rejecting the claim, which I articulated in full at the beginning of the year. Or attach my original responses.

    Now I've actually bothered reading some of the BW Legal form letters from the past few months, it's very clear that they have zero knowledge of my previous correspondence anyway.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Sep 16, 11:14 PM
    • 38,389 Posts
    • 49,825 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    As well as DEFINITELY responding, you really should be looking to report them to the CSA and SRA.

    Easy to do online and ties them up for six weeks, almost certainly stopping any claim from being filed in that time and assisting in getting them into hot water. Loads of examples here but LoveNorfolk's thread has both a copy of a strong CSA complaint and a later post by pappa golf, showing a SRA complaint written by a legally-qualified contact.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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