Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Bobby2k2
    • By Bobby2k2 3rd Dec 15, 11:37 PM
    • 54Posts
    • 35Thanks
    Bobby2k2
    UKPC & county court business centre form received
    • #1
    • 3rd Dec 15, 11:37 PM
    UKPC & county court business centre form received 3rd Dec 15 at 11:37 PM
    Hi
    Over the past few years I have received 3x PCNs from UKPC (2x 2013 & 1x 2014). At the time, I followed what I naively thought was the up to date advice by ignoring each one (I now know this is not the case

    I am now in receipt of the 'particulars of claim' issued by the a company called 'Small Claims Solicitors' weirdly signed only with the initials (SCS) as well the Claim form etc from the County Court Business Centre.

    The total is for just under £600 and now I am worried.

    From reading the other posts on here and reading the claim form itself, I am aware that this can not be ignored and do not want to run the risk of losing by default because I have failed to respond. To that end I have completed the 'Acknowledgement of service' and will return this as a matter of priority.

    The part I am completely at a loss with is how to defend this effectively. Can this be in bullet point from or does it need to be more comprehensive than that? I have tried to find templates for similar cases from UKPC but can find any. I have also looked at the post #5 on the newbie sticky entitled 'SMALL CLAIMS COURT?' and it advises to srart a new thread....

    Please help anybody

    Thanks in advance
Page 6
    • IndigoMondayToyota
    • By IndigoMondayToyota 8th Oct 16, 1:14 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 30 Thanks
    IndigoMondayToyota
    Best of luck, Bobby2k2!
    • Bobby2k2
    • By Bobby2k2 14th Oct 16, 1:07 AM
    • 54 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Bobby2k2
    UPDATE:

    Ok, so in relation to my hearing something happened that I was unexpected.. I was in court for approx 30 minutes until the judge adjourned again but this time to my benefit (I think)...

    I arrived slightly early and sat outside the court where the solicitor for UKPC was also seated. He greeted me and handed me a thick document that after closer inspection read:
    'Judgment - Cavendish Square Holding BV (appellant) v Tala El Makdessi (Respondent) / ParkingEye Limited (Respondent) v Beavis (Appellant).
    I asked if this was submited in their original bundle (which I knew it wasn't) and he said that it didn't need to because it was 'an authority' I acted like I knew what he was meant and carried on waiting to be called in.


    The judge began with a summary of what documents he had received thus far and in the process made the following remarks:

    He noted that the particulars of claim from the claimant were very brief
    He noted that I had sent at part 18 request and in their response they refused to produce a contract (he was not impressed)
    He also noted that I had submitted my defense & witness statement (but seemed to be ok with the fact I had addressed the points in the original MCOL defense as well as added some new ones)

    The judge then asked if the claimant responded to my defense to which they said they hadn't - This seemed to displease the judge.

    He then asked to see the contract to ensure that the claimant had the right to bring the claim..I have to say the solicitor tried his hardest to persuade the judge that the contract wasn't needed and that the witness statement from UKPC is enough. He sited 'commercial sensitivity' again but the judge wasn't having any of it and demanded that it be shown to both he and I. Reluctantly it was then produced (unredacted) with the terms and conditions and the judge and I started to read. Admittedly, I wasn't sure where to start and the judge could see that..the solicitor tried to direct us to a particular clause but judge declined his offer and said he wanted to go through it all.

    The judge asked him who the contract was with - it was the managing agent.
    The contract had no end date to which the judge asked how he could be sure if it was still place.
    He also asked who the landowner was and if it was in fact the managing agent - the solicitor said he didn't know to which I said I knew it wasn't as I had completed a land registry check that can be found in my bundle.

    Within their contract with the managing agent, there was a clause that said they could bring court proceedings to recover money but at their own expense. The solicitor referred to POFA 2012 and said that the managing agent would be the 'occupier' of the land and therefore this allows them to bring the claim in their own name. I argued that this related to a contract and argued how we would know if the managing agent had the authority to to this and that the only way we could be sure was to see evidence of the landowner giving authority to them to do so. The judge looked like he thought I had a point...

    The judge then had enough and said that he had a number of issues and there were a lot of points to go through and it could possibly be done in the two hour allocation. He said he had hoped to resolve the at least one descrepancies but could see that he couldn't (think he was refering to UKPC's right to bring the claim).

    Their side asked if we could at least go through some of the issues but the judge refused and said he wanted it done all at the same time and not as a 'piece meal'

    The judge then went on to say that it was wholly unaccepable that the claimant only produced the contract on the day of the hearing! He could see no reason why they couldnt have produced it sooner. He said it was not fair and obstructive to me as I was under represented (on my own) and could not possibly be expected to review it on the spot (I agree).


    He then gave the following directions

    1) The claimant has to serve a response to my defense together with a copy of the contract awarding parking services to the claimant as well as the terms and conditions that were applicable to the contract. He then granted permission for them to redact any commercially sensitive information (after asking if I was ok with that)

    2)The claimant has to serve a trial bundle and the hearing be relisted for an allocation of 1 whole day!

    The solicitor tried again and said he thought half a day would be sufficient but the judge said no, we need a full day.

    I have to say the judge seemed very thorough but fair. I think he wants to review the content in its entirety. The contract will be interesting indeed.

    Surely the additional 1 day hearing will cost UKPC even more money now?

    Please let me know your thoughts and any other ideas that I can use to be even more prepared for the new date.
    Last edited by Bobby2k2; 14-10-2016 at 1:13 AM.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 14th Oct 16, 8:57 AM
    • 995 Posts
    • 908 Thanks
    DoaM
    Will you receive a copy of the trial bundle prior to the next hearing?

    Will you have an opportunity to comment on that bundle, especially if it includes new items not previously provided by the claimant?

    The Beavis judgment actually helps you, as your situation with UKPC is not remotely like that of Beavis with PE.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 14th Oct 16, 9:05 AM
    • 977 Posts
    • 1,716 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Suggest you write to UKPC and suggest a discontinuance on the basis of a "drop hands" offer.

    This means they swallow their costs and you swallow yours. Stops the farce (or legal process as UKPC like to call it)

    If you had taken my suggestion in #4 you'd be quids in now.
    General Election coming up? Your MP worried about his/her job? Give them something to do and get them to sort out these parking cowboys. Search "Theyworkforyou" for the name of your MP.
    • Bobby2k2
    • By Bobby2k2 14th Oct 16, 11:46 AM
    • 54 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Bobby2k2
    Suggest you write to UKPC and suggest a discontinuance on the basis of a "drop hands" offer.

    This means they swallow their costs and you swallow yours. Stops the farce (or legal process as UKPC like to call it)
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    Thanks for the suggestion.. If they decline can they bring it up in court and weaken my position? If they can't, then strategically, I may wait until they reply to my defense and send over the contract - At least that way it'll cost them more money because of addItional work they have to do AND we can all finally see a version of one of their contracts.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Oct 16, 11:50 AM
    • 40,408 Posts
    • 52,295 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    If they decline can they bring it up in court and weaken my position?
    Not if you head it 'without prejudice save as to costs' - stops it being used in court against you.

    IamEmanresu knows his stuff, sounds like a good way to force their hand & end it.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 14th Oct 16, 12:33 PM
    • 1,850 Posts
    • 5,006 Thanks
    bargepole
    A whole day for a parking charge case? That's insane, I've never known one to be listed for more than 3 hours.

    What on earth is the Judge expecting to do, go through the entire history of the development of the law of contract?
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 17. Lost 5.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 14th Oct 16, 12:37 PM
    • 977 Posts
    • 1,716 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    There may be sanity in the insanity. A not so subtle way of saying don't come back. Try for the Notice.
    General Election coming up? Your MP worried about his/her job? Give them something to do and get them to sort out these parking cowboys. Search "Theyworkforyou" for the name of your MP.
    • Bobby2k2
    • By Bobby2k2 15th Oct 16, 2:34 PM
    • 54 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Bobby2k2
    Will you receive a copy of the trial bundle prior to the next hearing?
    Yes I believe so. However, now considering the suggesting the notice.
    • TDA
    • By TDA 15th Oct 16, 4:46 PM
    • 245 Posts
    • 167 Thanks
    TDA
    There may be sanity in the insanity. A not so subtle way of saying don't come back. Try for the Notice.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    Seems unlikely to me. If the judge wanted to do that he could simply have kicked the case out on the basis that it hadn't been proved on balance that the claimant had contractual authority to operate on the land.

    Adjournment means he thinks there is still a case to be heard.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Oct 16, 4:57 PM
    • 36,454 Posts
    • 73,278 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I'm not sure if has been mentioned here before, but you are advised to tie your court bundle with something prominent like red tape/ribbon, and if offered anything before you enter the courtroom to just leave it behind.

    I'm not sure if it is to your advantage if you were to mention to the judge that you have been offered documents just before entering
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Bobby2k2
    • By Bobby2k2 31st Oct 16, 7:34 PM
    • 54 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Bobby2k2
    UPDATE:

    UKPC have now sent a response to my defense together with a redacted copy of their contract with the Managing agent as well as their terms and conditions.

    I will try for the notice of discontinuance on the basis of a "drop hands" offer as suggested by @IamEmanresu.

    I can provide details of their response and documents mentioned if anyone requires..

    I'll keep the thread updated if I get a response
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Oct 16, 10:18 PM
    • 40,408 Posts
    • 52,295 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes it would be good to see their Witness Statement here.

    So did the Judge say in the order, that when you saw their contract that you would then have time to respond by way of an updated Witness Statement? Or are you now expected to just go back to court now the Judge has allowed them to add to their evidence (seems rather unfair, why do they get two chances at evidence?).

    IamEmanresu's suggestion is a good one as I do not expect them to want to fund a whole day's solicitor's costs for a case scrutinising the contract and the signs (small print, £100 buried and illegible).

    Does this contract show authority flowing from the landowner or not?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 1st Nov 16, 9:14 AM
    • 995 Posts
    • 908 Thanks
    DoaM
    As above, a contract with the managing agent is irrelevant unless the managing agent also has authority from the landowner, and that authority allows them to confer rights on a subcontractor to pursue charges in the subcontractor's own name.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Bobby2k2
    • By Bobby2k2 3rd Nov 16, 5:55 PM
    • 54 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Bobby2k2

    So did the Judge say in the order, that when you saw their contract that you would then have time to respond by way of an updated Witness Statement? Or are you now expected to just go back to court now the Judge has allowed them to add to their evidence (seems rather unfair, why do they get two chances at evidence?).
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    No that judge thought it was unfair that they hadn't responed in the first and in a sense I came to court 'blind'. He also said that it was also unfair to produce the contract on the day as it would put me at a disadvantaged especially as I attended on my own.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Nov 16, 6:00 PM
    • 40,408 Posts
    • 52,295 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    OK, interesting. Can you show us UKPC's response to defence/witness statement, perhaps hosted in Dropbox after redacting your name/details?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bobby2k2
    • By Bobby2k2 3rd Nov 16, 6:17 PM
    • 54 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Bobby2k2
    Suggest you write to UKPC and suggest a discontinuance on the basis of a "drop hands" offer.

    This means they swallow their costs and you swallow yours. Stops the farce (or legal process as UKPC like to call it)
    Not if you head it 'without prejudice save as to costs' - stops it being used in court against you.

    IamEmanresu knows his stuff, sounds like a good way to force their hand & end it.

    How does this sound (or does it need to be longer?)

    Name
    Address

    Date
    Claim number


    Without prejudice - save as to costs

    Dear Sir/Madam

    I Bobby2k2, the defendant deny fully any liability in relation to the above claim however, in order to save any costs that may be incurred as a result of the pending hearing that has been relisted for an allocation 1 day hearing, I suggest a discontinuance on the basis of a "drop hands" offer.

    This will mean that the claim is discontinued, with both parties paying their own costs.

    Kind regards
    Bobby2k2
    • Bobby2k2
    • By Bobby2k2 4th Nov 16, 6:53 PM
    • 54 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Bobby2k2
    OK, interesting. Can you show us UKPC's response to defence/witness statement, perhaps hosted in Dropbox after redacting your name/details?

    Please if anybody can offer some input, it would be greatly appreciated:

    UKPC initial witness statement:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByKlPmpyHuzONG5lZFhUWm9WNlU/view?usp=sharing


    UKPC reply to my witness as ordered by the judge:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByKlPmpyHuzOaGV2T0RiY2dCdGc/view?usp=sharing


    UKPC contract & terms and conditions:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByKlPmpyHuzOMkNUUmk2b2oyN0E/view?usp=sharing


    There you go!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 4th Nov 16, 7:06 PM
    • 10,971 Posts
    • 16,372 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Just skimmed the contract.

    It runs for only 3 months from the start date - 28 May 2012. There is no evidence the contract extends beyond that. I think your dates of 'contravention' are after this period.

    The rate of discount of £60 from the PCN charge of £90 does not meet with the 'effectively binding' (as per the Supreme Court, PE -v- Beavis) BPA Code of Practice rate of 40%.

    Haven't gone back through your thread, but what level of charge was imposed on you on each of the PCNs?
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 4th Nov 16, 7:25 PM
    • 1,062 Posts
    • 1,316 Thanks
    Castle
    The contract refers to "Trinity Estates" but the only company of that name is in Aylesbury; the full name of the client is probably Trinity (Estates) Property Management Ltd.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,352Posts Today

6,710Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • RT @speirin: @MartinSLewis now thats a blast from the past ???? https://t.co/5cSz1aNWFz

  • Have you set the Betamax? Tonight 8pm ITV The Martin Lewis Money Show - if ur married, and/or got kids and/or get tax credits - a must watch

  • On my way to @thismorning today "Is a shop telling you porkies" - how to tell your consumer rights from consumer wrongs...

  • Follow Martin