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    • MSE Megan F
    • By MSE Megan F 3rd Nov 15, 8:15 PM
    • 129Posts
    • 44Thanks
    MSE Megan F
    School Holiday Fines
    • #1
    • 3rd Nov 15, 8:15 PM
    School Holiday Fines 3rd Nov 15 at 8:15 PM


    Hi all, we have a new School Holiday Fines guide, and we'd love to hear your feedback.

    Just click reply below to share any info. If you haven’t already, join the forum to reply. If you aren’t sure how it all works, read our New to Forum? Intro Guide.

    Thanks for your help,

    MSE Megan F
    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 04-11-2015 at 12:11 PM.

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Page 14
    • maman
    • By maman 17th May 17, 12:39 PM
    • 16,395 Posts
    • 97,983 Thanks
    maman
    I wonder if someone could advise me please as I've not seen my situation arise. My son has special needs and isn't in a full time placement, he goes to a local school/academy for one hour after everyone has gone home. This us whilst we were waiting on an ehcp. This has now been approved so this is the last term here. As he will have another place to go suited for his needs. We've been doing this one hour almost 3yrs. He's year 9 going upto 10. We've never been away, and I've found him the perfect retreat to help ease his anxiety and depression. It's a week before term ends. Will I be fined. Bearing in mind they only keep him on this hour to keep being financed for him plus they couldn't deal with him any other way as they kept excluding him before realising his complex needs, Thanks in advance.
    Originally posted by Desiderata58

    Because of this they may think it's exceptional circumstances and give permission especially if the retreat is just on that week and cant be done in the school holidays. The only way you'll find out is to make an appointment with the Head, go into school, explain the situation and ask.
    • DarkShadow
    • By DarkShadow 17th May 17, 12:48 PM
    • 142 Posts
    • 60 Thanks
    DarkShadow
    It's wrong to break school rules take take kids on holiday during the term time unless its something minor like 1,2 days. Back in the day, if my parents took me away for a week during my school time, I would be liable for readmission.

    Then again, we have a very overpriced childcare scheme in this country which isn't even adequate for most peoples needs.
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    • maman
    • By maman 17th May 17, 1:33 PM
    • 16,395 Posts
    • 97,983 Thanks
    maman
    Obviously desiderata's child has complex needs and this retreat is designed to help his mental health. Personally I'd consider that in much the same way as a medical appointment. So if the retreat is available out of school hours then fine but otherwise he needs permission.


    It's wrong to break school rules take take kids on holiday during the term time unless its something minor like 1,2 days. Back in the day, if my parents took me away for a week during my school time, I would be liable for readmission.

    Then again, we have a very overpriced childcare scheme in this country which isn't even adequate for most peoples needs.
    Originally posted by DarkShadow

    I'm tempted to say that it's not overpriced between the ages of 5 and 16. Many people prize that sort of childcare and get extremely irate when it's not available because of staff training or snow or, god forbid, the child minders go on strike!
    • foxster99
    • By foxster99 23rd May 17, 2:33 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    foxster99
    I wonder if someone could advise me please as I've not seen my situation arise. My son has special needs and isn't in a full time placement, he goes to a local school/academy for one hour after everyone has gone home. This us whilst we were waiting on an ehcp. This has now been approved so this is the last term here. As he will have another place to go suited for his needs. We've been doing this one hour almost 3yrs. He's year 9 going upto 10. We've never been away, and I've found him the perfect retreat to help ease his anxiety and depression. It's a week before term ends. Will I be fined. Bearing in mind they only keep him on this hour to keep being financed for him plus they couldn't deal with him any other way as they kept excluding him before realising his complex needs, Thanks in advance.
    Originally posted by Desiderata58
    Sounds pretty unlikely they'd want to fine you.

    Just talk to your school face-to-face and give the background and reasons.
    • GerrytheMole
    • By GerrytheMole 6th Jun 17, 11:47 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    GerrytheMole
    Armed Police
    My son in law is a member of the armed police, his holidays are allocated (and of course can be cancelled in emergencies). He works nights and days on shifts, and is often away from family home for days at a time, he protects us against terrorists and armed criminals. Daughter has constant worry reference his safety and greatly wishes for a sunshine family holiday with them all together. The nub is that his holidays has been allocated outside term time. A personal meeting with the school Head has advised that they will be fined if they take the child, aged 7, out of school. His school attendance is in the high 95% category. Can they appeal the decision of the Head? If so how?
    • takman
    • By takman 6th Jun 17, 12:09 PM
    • 2,483 Posts
    • 2,075 Thanks
    takman
    My son in law is a member of the armed police, his holidays are allocated (and of course can be cancelled in emergencies). He works nights and days on shifts, and is often away from family home for days at a time, he protects us against terrorists and armed criminals. Daughter has constant worry reference his safety and greatly wishes for a sunshine family holiday with them all together. The nub is that his holidays has been allocated outside term time. A personal meeting with the school Head has advised that they will be fined if they take the child, aged 7, out of school. His school attendance is in the high 95% category. Can they appeal the decision of the Head? If so how?
    Originally posted by GerrytheMole
    If the head won't approve the holiday then they should just go on holiday and pay the fine.

    From all the literature i have read there is no reason that a family holiday will be considered exceptional circumstances which are required to get the holiday approved.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 6th Jun 17, 1:06 PM
    • 27,997 Posts
    • 71,163 Thanks
    Mojisola
    My son in law is a member of the armed police, his holidays are allocated

    The nub is that his holidays has been allocated outside term time.
    Originally posted by GerrytheMole
    See if their council has info like this -
    http://www2.eastriding.gov.uk/learning/schools-colleges-and-academies/school-attendance/holidays-during-term-time-and-authorised-absence-from-school/
    on their website.

    "Exceptional circumstances could include:
    Service personnel returning from a tour of duty abroad where it is evidenced the individual will not be in receipt of any leave in the near future that coincides with school holidays."

    Your son-in-law could argue that an armed response officer whose leave doesn't coincide with school holidays should be entitled to the same leeway.
    • anna_1977
    • By anna_1977 6th Jun 17, 1:35 PM
    • 576 Posts
    • 801 Thanks
    anna_1977
    Sounds pretty unlikely they'd want to fine you.

    Just talk to your school face-to-face and give the background and reasons.
    Originally posted by foxster99

    As long as your grandchild has not been absent from long periods of school before they will find it incredibly hard to fine. A school day is classed as 2 registration sessions and you have to drop below 80 school sessions absent in 100 sessions (so 2 weeks off in a 10 week period) before they are even allowed to present it to the panel that then pursue the court action. If he's only off for the 2 weeks that year and then the odd day here and they they don't have a leg to stand on

    I used to sit on the panel for my local area for absent pupils
    • foxster99
    • By foxster99 6th Jun 17, 9:38 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    foxster99
    As long as your grandchild has not been absent from long periods of school before they will find it incredibly hard to fine. A school day is classed as 2 registration sessions and you have to drop below 80 school sessions absent in 100 sessions (so 2 weeks off in a 10 week period) before they are even allowed to present it to the panel that then pursue the court action. If he's only off for the 2 weeks that year and then the odd day here and they they don't have a leg to stand on

    I used to sit on the panel for my local area for absent pupils
    Originally posted by anna_1977
    That's not good advice these days. I have never heard of such a panel and I am certain they don't exist now.

    A fine can be issued for any amount of unauthorised absence, there is no minimum. Generally, schools set their own criteria for issuing fines and the local authority are legally obliged to issue a fine when a school asks them to. Some LAs like to think they are in charge but in fact it is the school.

    Typically though, schools are pretty sensible and won't issue fines unfairly. A common internal policy is to fine when there have been more than 6 sessions of unauthorised absence in the previous 12 weeks.
    Last edited by foxster99; 06-06-2017 at 9:56 PM.
    • foxster99
    • By foxster99 6th Jun 17, 9:55 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    foxster99
    My son in law is a member of the armed police, his holidays are allocated (and of course can be cancelled in emergencies). He works nights and days on shifts, and is often away from family home for days at a time, he protects us against terrorists and armed criminals. Daughter has constant worry reference his safety and greatly wishes for a sunshine family holiday with them all together. The nub is that his holidays has been allocated outside term time. A personal meeting with the school Head has advised that they will be fined if they take the child, aged 7, out of school. His school attendance is in the high 95% category. Can they appeal the decision of the Head? If so how?
    Originally posted by GerrytheMole
    There is no appeal beyond the Head. If he said no and that a fine will be issued then that's it.

    One issue is that since fines became automatic, many parents now present apparently exceptional circumstances, which I never used to see. I regularly get asked to approve absences for two weeks or so for funerals, weddings, work commitments, hospital visits in another country, christenings, divorces, cultural trips, etc. It is impossible to decide whether any of these are genuine or not. So I, like at most schools, just follow the government's regulations and say no.

    The other issue is about "rights". Children have a legally guaranteed right to a full education. There is no right for parents to either a job or a holiday. Therefore, if a parent's work commitments prevent the family going abroad in the school holidays then they have no more right to deprive their child of their education than someone else doing it just because its cheaper.

    Everyone knows that school holidays are fixed. People decide to have children and enrol them in schools knowing this. So they just have to suck it up and live with it for a few years.
    • anna_1977
    • By anna_1977 7th Jun 17, 9:07 AM
    • 576 Posts
    • 801 Thanks
    anna_1977
    That's not good advice these days. I have never heard of such a panel and I am certain they don't exist now.

    A fine can be issued for any amount of unauthorised absence, there is no minimum. Generally, schools set their own criteria for issuing fines and the local authority are legally obliged to issue a fine when a school asks them to. Some LAs like to think they are in charge but in fact it is the school.

    Typically though, schools are pretty sensible and won't issue fines unfairly. A common internal policy is to fine when there have been more than 6 sessions of unauthorised absence in the previous 12 weeks.
    Originally posted by foxster99
    Maybe it's not nationwide but in Hampshire the panels very much exist. They were setup after the Education Welfare Officers were no longer
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 7th Jun 17, 9:23 AM
    • 27,997 Posts
    • 71,163 Thanks
    Mojisola
    Maybe it's not nationwide but in Hampshire the panels very much exist. They were setup after the Education Welfare Officers were no longer
    Originally posted by anna_1977
    We've still got EWOs.
    • julie777
    • By julie777 7th Jun 17, 9:26 AM
    • 264 Posts
    • 208 Thanks
    julie777
    Legal Advice Please
    I would like to know - at what point has a parent broken a law?
    When found guilty in a court? When refusing to pay a fine? When a fine is issued? When they remove the child from school for a holiday?
    Are any MSE members qualified to advise on the legal side? When ARE you a law-breaker and/or criminal?
    Thanks.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 7th Jun 17, 9:38 AM
    • 27,997 Posts
    • 71,163 Thanks
    Mojisola
    If a child has time off for a holiday, the parents may be issued with a Truancy Penalty Notice. Not paying this is a criminal offence.

    If a child has lots of unauthorised absences, the parents may be prosecuted for the offence of failure to ensure regular attendance at school.
    • foxster99
    • By foxster99 7th Jun 17, 4:40 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    foxster99
    I would like to know - at what point has a parent broken a law?
    When found guilty in a court? When refusing to pay a fine? When a fine is issued? When they remove the child from school for a holiday?
    Are any MSE members qualified to advise on the legal side? When ARE you a law-breaker and/or criminal?
    Thanks.
    Originally posted by julie777
    You know when you have been deemed to have broken the law when you are issued with a fine. You can settle the offence for the period in question in full by paying the fine. You will not have a criminal record for this.

    If you either don't pay a fine or if you are prosecuted for your child's non-regular attendance then you have to go to court and if found guilty (which is statistically far and away the most likely outcome) then you will receive greater penalties between £120 plus costs (typically a few hundred pounds) for each parent, up to a £2500 fine and 3 months in jail for each parent. You will also then have a criminal record that can bar you from or get you sacked from some jobs. It can also affect your rights to be in the UK if a non-citizen.

    Your child's attendance at school is serious stuff. A child's right to an education is guaranteed in the highest legislation and courts, all the way up to the UN. Depriving a child of this right is considered a form of abuse and you do so at your peril.
    • foxster99
    • By foxster99 7th Jun 17, 4:46 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    foxster99
    Maybe it's not nationwide but in Hampshire the panels very much exist. They were setup after the Education Welfare Officers were no longer
    Originally posted by anna_1977
    My understanding (limited that it is) is that Hampshire's Attendance Legal Panel (ALP) decides whether to proceed with prosecutions of parents in court, not to decide whether Penalty Notices (fines) are to be issued. No?
    Last edited by foxster99; 07-06-2017 at 4:52 PM.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 7th Jun 17, 4:51 PM
    • 14,627 Posts
    • 14,352 Thanks
    Guest101
    If a child has time off for a holiday, the parents may be issued with a Truancy Penalty Notice. Not paying this is a criminal offence. - are you sure?

    If a child has lots of unauthorised absences, the parents may be prosecuted for the offence of failure to ensure regular attendance at school.
    Originally posted by Mojisola


    I'm pretty sure not paying a penalty notice is not a criminal offence. It just means the next stage is court.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 7th Jun 17, 4:52 PM
    • 14,627 Posts
    • 14,352 Thanks
    Guest101
    That's not good advice these days. I have never heard of such a panel and I am certain they don't exist now.

    A fine can be issued for any amount of unauthorised absence, there is no minimum. Generally, schools set their own criteria for issuing fines and the local authority are legally obliged to issue a fine when a school asks them to. Some LAs like to think they are in charge but in fact it is the school.

    Typically though, schools are pretty sensible and won't issue fines unfairly. A common internal policy is to fine when there have been more than 6 sessions of unauthorised absence in the previous 12 weeks.
    Originally posted by foxster99

    It's not a fine, courts issue fines. it's a penalty notice....
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 7th Jun 17, 4:54 PM
    • 14,627 Posts
    • 14,352 Thanks
    Guest101
    I would like to know - at what point has a parent broken a law?
    When found guilty in a court? When refusing to pay a fine? When a fine is issued? When they remove the child from school for a holiday?
    Are any MSE members qualified to advise on the legal side? When ARE you a law-breaker and/or criminal?
    Thanks.
    Originally posted by julie777


    You break the law when you commit the act.


    IE when your child doesn't turn up for school. You are only guilty of the offence when you either pay a penalty notice or are found guilty in court.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 7th Jun 17, 5:02 PM
    • 14,627 Posts
    • 14,352 Thanks
    Guest101
    You know when you have been deemed to have broken the law when you are issued with a fine. You can settle the offence for the period in question in full by paying the fine. You will not have a criminal record for this.

    If you either don't pay a fine or if you are prosecuted for your child's non-regular attendance then you have to go to court and if found guilty (which is statistically far and away the most likely outcome) then you will receive greater penalties between £120 plus costs (typically a few hundred pounds) for each parent, up to a £2500 fine and 3 months in jail for each parent. You will also then have a criminal record that can bar you from or get you sacked from some jobs. It can also affect your rights to be in the UK if a non-citizen.

    Your child's attendance at school is serious stuff. A child's right to an education is guaranteed in the highest legislation and courts, all the way up to the UN. Depriving a child of this right is considered a form of abuse and you do so at your peril.
    Originally posted by foxster99


    Just to be technical:


    Duty of parents to secure education of children of compulsory school age.E+W
    The parent of every child of compulsory school age shall cause him to receive efficient full-time education suitable—
    (a)to his age, ability and aptitude, and
    (b)to any special educational needs he may have,
    either by regular attendance at school or otherwise.


    Also worth noting s.9


    Pupils to be educated in accordance with parents’ wishes.E+W
    In exercising or performing all their respective powers and duties under the Education Acts, the Secretary of [F25State and local education authorities]shall have regard to the general principle that pupils are to be educated in accordance with the wishes of their parents, so far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure.


    But hey, why let the law get in the way of a good rant eh....
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