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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Jun 15, 7:25 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Green, ethical, energy issues in the news.
    • #1
    • 9th Jun 15, 7:25 AM
    Green, ethical, energy issues in the news. 9th Jun 15 at 7:25 AM
    I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread for posting general news items that may be of interest.

    PV and the 'Solar in the news' thread attract a lot of interest, so here's a thread for all the other goings on.

    Mart.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
Page 38
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 1st Oct 17, 5:48 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Hi

    As previously mentioned, it doesn't matter what technology the power-train uses, there's simply a vehicle manufacturing capacity issue ... then again, if we were to consider global battery manufacturing capacity, timescales would need to slip more than a little ... even Tesla are barely building enough batteries for a couple of thousand vehicles/month at the moment ...

    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Psst, don't mention the batteries, total PITA. I suspect (hopeless optimism) that things are now shifting. There are a lot of plans for large batt factories, plus of course some real ones being built, and the Nevada Gigafactory extensions will take it to 150GWh pa, up from the original 35GWh.

    Next year I think Tesla plan to ship 500,000 cars, plus those pesky Powerwalls and Powerpacks* too.

    Of course, even 150GWh/500,000 cars is still small change, so all eyes are on TGF 2, 3 & 4 (with rumours of #5 already), and other non-Tesla factory announcements taking the total to 10+.

    * For full disclosure, the Australian news attracting "100 days or they're free" Powerpack farm will actually use Samsung batts, as Panasonic/Tesla need all of theirs currently for the S, 3 & X models. Roll on the Y to complete Elon's 10yr promise to make SEXY EV's.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 1st Oct 17, 6:01 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Just to say that wind generation is currently 'off the dial' on Gridwatch with 8.3GW and 26% of demand.

    Add in embedded generation and that's about 10.8GW (~31% of demand), or 10.9GW as per this site.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • michaels
    • By michaels 1st Oct 17, 10:33 PM
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    michaels
    Psst, don't mention the batteries, total PITA. I suspect (hopeless optimism) that things are now shifting. There are a lot of plans for large batt factories, plus of course some real ones being built, and the Nevada Gigafactory extensions will take it to 150GWh pa, up from the original 35GWh.

    Next year I think Tesla plan to ship 500,000 cars, plus those pesky Powerwalls and Powerpacks* too.

    Of course, even 150GWh/500,000 cars is still small change, so all eyes are on TGF 2, 3 & 4 (with rumours of #5 already), and other non-Tesla factory announcements taking the total to 10+.

    * For full disclosure, the Australian news attracting "100 days or they're free" Powerpack farm will actually use Samsung batts, as Panasonic/Tesla need all of theirs currently for the S, 3 & X models. Roll on the Y to complete Elon's 10yr promise to make SEXY EV's.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Apparently the model 3 isn't called the model E because Ford had the trademark

    As an owner of a 2.5yr old EV I am all for used prices holding up well.

    Is it possible that in 5 years time 50% of all vehicles sold will include some form of battery even if the majority are just prius style hybrids?
    Cool heads and compromise
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 1st Oct 17, 10:37 PM
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    Cardew
    I've got good news for you, there's been an EV capable of this for several years already.

    The Tesla S 100 can do 514 miles at 45mph, or 319 miles at 70mph, and somewhere in-between at somewhere in-between. An 80% charge will only take 40 mins at supercharger sites. And the cars cost much less than a Ferrari.

    I think EV's are a bit like PV, batts and heat pumps, many folk just don't realise how good they are.

    Of course, a rental car for some journeys is another option, allowing for the use of an EV with a smaller range, and after deducting wear and tear, 1,000 miles nearer to next service and mileage depreciation, could even be cheaper than using your own.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/tesla/model-s/first-drives/tesla-model-s-100d-2017-uk-review?page=1

    Not news to me; and a Tesla 100 is hardly money saving! I wonder what the 'real world' range is in winter.

    So hire at £280 a day for the 2 or 3 weeks stay?

    Driving at 45mph in a car capable of 0-60mph in less than 3 seconds isn't exactly sensible, and some police will issue a warning for driving that slow on a motorway; albeit it is not against the law.

    I repeat an EV is not likely to be suitable for my requirements for a long while. IMO EVs are ideal in a 2 car household.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 2nd Oct 17, 7:39 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Not news to me; and a Tesla 100 is hardly money saving! I wonder what the 'real world' range is in winter.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    Hiya. Again, lots of good news. The Tesla S 100, at 70mph and 10C has a 311 mile range, so certainly suitable, given you mentioned the journey requires stops, and that's probably around 6hrs of driving. [303 miles at 0C and 290 miles at -10C]


    So hire at £280 a day for the 2 or 3 weeks stay?
    Originally posted by Cardew
    More good news, I just checked, and I think you got the rental costs mixed up, a full size MPV on Enterprise (first and only site I checked) was £297 per week, not day.

    So as I explained, possibly a cheaper option than using your own car (tyre wear, general wear and tear, 1,000 mile price depreciation (probably £200 alone), 1,000 mile of your service interval used up, etc). And in the context of this discussion, no need to rule out a shorter range EV, just hire a more 'specialised' vehicle for those long hauls. [I've based on 1,000 miles, but presumably total mileage is higher across the two weeks, increasing savings.]


    Driving at 45mph in a car capable of 0-60mph in less than 3 seconds isn't exactly sensible, and some police will issue a warning for driving that slow on a motorway; albeit it is not against the law.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    Sorry, I think you missed the point. I said:-

    The Tesla S 100 can do 514 miles at 45mph, or 319 miles at 70mph, and somewhere in-between at somewhere in-between.
    I don't believe I suggested you drive down the motorway at 45mph, as I gave a 70mph range. The point was to let you know that at lower speeds, which I assume you do for some of the journey, the range is much greater. So the total range will reflect all driving not just 70mph driving.

    Also worth pointing out that the top speed or 0-60 time of a car does not dictate how fast it should be driven. So you should stick to all speed limits at all times, regardless of the capabilities of your car.


    I repeat an EV is not likely to be suitable for my requirements for a long while. IMO EVs are ideal in a 2 car household.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    Absolutely, perfect for a 2 car household, and also perfect for the extreme example you have given, even now, or when combined with occasional, low cost (net) car hire.


    What is now fascinating is that the EV option appears to meet most needs already. I also suspect that net of running costs they are already cheaper than ICEV's, so the future looks very promising as costs continue to fall going forward. So all good news.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 2nd Oct 17, 7:51 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Just to say that wind generation is currently 'off the dial' on Gridwatch with 8.3GW and 26% of demand.

    Add in embedded generation and that's about 10.8GW (~31% of demand), or 10.9GW as per this site.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Just to say that wind is even higher now, showing 8.44GW on Gridwatch, and 'all-in' broke the UK record yesterday with 11.3GW, and a possible 12GW today when the hurricane remnants hit us.

    Edit: 10am and 11.5GW. :-)
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 02-10-2017 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • ed110220
    • By ed110220 2nd Oct 17, 2:44 PM
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    ed110220
    Just to say that wind is even higher now, showing 8.44GW on Gridwatch, and 'all-in' broke the UK record yesterday with 11.3GW, and a possible 12GW today when the hurricane remnants hit us.

    Edit: 10am and 11.5GW. :-)
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    11 GW at the moment, and interestingly we're simultaneously importing electricity from the Netherlands and exporting to France. I guess this means the transmission capacity between France and the Netherlands is at capacity and so it can't go more directly?

    Ed
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 2nd Oct 17, 4:21 PM
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    Cardew
    Hiya. Again, lots of good news. The Tesla S 100, at 70mph and 10C has a 311 mile range, so certainly suitable, given you mentioned the journey requires stops, and that's probably around 6hrs of driving. [303 miles at 0C and 290 miles at -10C]


    More good news, I just checked, and I think you got the rental costs mixed up, a full size MPV on Enterprise (first and only site I checked) was £297 per week, not day.
    I was quoting cost per day of the Teslar S100

    So as I explained, possibly a cheaper option than using your own car (tyre wear, general wear and tear, 1,000 mile price depreciation (probably £200 alone), 1,000 mile of your service interval used up, etc). And in the context of this discussion, no need to rule out a shorter range EV, just hire a more 'specialised' vehicle for those long hauls. [I've based on 1,000 miles, but presumably total mileage is higher across the two weeks, increasing savings.]

    Sorry, I think you missed the point. I said:-

    I don't believe I suggested you drive down the motorway at 45mph, as I gave a 70mph range. The point was to let you know that at lower speeds, which I assume you do for some of the journey, the range is much greater. So the total range will reflect all driving not just 70mph driving.

    Also worth pointing out that the top speed or 0-60 time of a car does not dictate how fast it should be driven. So you should stick to all speed limits at all times, regardless of the capabilities of your car.

    Absolutely, perfect for a 2 car household, and also perfect for the extreme example you have given, even now, or when combined with occasional, low cost (net) car hire.

    What is now fascinating is that the EV option appears to meet most needs already. I also suspect that net of running costs they are already cheaper than ICEV's, so the future looks very promising as costs continue to fall going forward. So all good news.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    I appreciate you bringing your unique logic to bear on the solution to my requirements for an EV. However I do accept your input was TIC.

    Let me say firstly that I fully accept that EVs are the future and in time, with improved technology and lowered initial costs, they will make financial sense for many motorists.

    However this is a money saving website and at present they make no sense for the vast majority of motorists.

    Let us take the Nissan Leaf 30kW - a smallish family car. The list price for the cheapest version is £25,790. A comparable size petrol/diesel car costs around half that amount - eg. Hyundai I20 is £11,755, Nissan Pulsar is £13,275. Although the official mpg figures are much higher, both those petrol cars will comfortably achieve 45mpg in ‘real world’ motoring.

    The petrol costs for a 10,000 mile a year motorist would be approx. £1,200 and £160 rfl saving. So after 10 years the total outlay(buying car and fuel/rfl costs) would be roughly the cost of the purchase price of the Leaf.

    You then have to consider the electricity costs(£250pa?) for 100,000 miles on the Leaf and the cost of borrowing an extra £12k to £14k(or loss of interest). Also the Leaf price includes a £4,500 subsidy(music to the ears!) for EVs.
    Last edited by Cardew; 02-10-2017 at 4:24 PM.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 2nd Oct 17, 4:40 PM
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    Martyn1981
    I appreciate you bringing your unique logic to bear on the solution to my requirements for an EV. However I do accept your input was TIC.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    No need to be rude, I was simply addressing your statement

    I think it will be a long time before an EV will be suitable for such a journey.
    and letting you know that EV's suitable for such a journey have been around for several years, which is great news.

    I was quoting cost per day of the Teslar S100
    I don't understand why you would want to hire the Tesla, I was offering a solution where you own a smaller EV, then hire an ICEV for your example problem, just to let you know that constructive solutions exist.

    Regarding EV running costs, don't just focus on 'Money Saving' but also reflect on 'Green & Ethical' please, as we need to move to cleaner transportation. You might also want to consider reduced brake and tyre wear, and reduced servicing costs too.

    Also, you might not have to pay for the electricity:-

    Electric car owners 'can drive for free by letting energy firms use battery'

    Next, looking forward, the price of these cars will come down when production numbers go up. The batteries are already falling in price, only a couple of months ago Tesla announced a $3,000-$5,000 reduction in the cost of the S & X models to pass on reductions in the cost of battery production. If that happened once a year, then even on smaller battery models such as the 3, that could wipe $10,000 off the price.

    Anyways, it might not be the car for you yet, but as I said, the good news is that your particular objection is no obstacle at all, already.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 2nd Oct 17, 4:45 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Apparently the model 3 isn't called the model E because Ford had the trademark
    Originally posted by michaels
    What goes around, comes around.

    When Ford relaunched the GT, they couldn't call it the GT40 as they'd never trademarked the nickname (based on the car being only 40 inches tall) of the 1960's car. One of the replica car makers had the name and wanted too much for it.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 2nd Oct 17, 4:47 PM
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    Martyn1981
    11 GW at the moment, and interestingly we're simultaneously importing electricity from the Netherlands and exporting to France. I guess this means the transmission capacity between France and the Netherlands is at capacity and so it can't go more directly?

    Ed
    Originally posted by ed110220
    I've stolen this comment, but I'm sure it's correct:

    National Grid reporting on Twitter that last night saw the UK's Lowest ever carbon intensity - 73 gCO2/kWh - between 01/10/2017 23:30 - 00:00 UTC.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • michaels
    • By michaels 2nd Oct 17, 10:21 PM
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    michaels
    I appreciate you bringing your unique logic to bear on the solution to my requirements for an EV. However I do accept your input was TIC.

    Let me say firstly that I fully accept that EVs are the future and in time, with improved technology and lowered initial costs, they will make financial sense for many motorists.

    However this is a money saving website and at present they make no sense for the vast majority of motorists.

    Let us take the Nissan Leaf 30kW - a smallish family car. The list price for the cheapest version is £25,790. A comparable size petrol/diesel car costs around half that amount - eg. Hyundai I20 is £11,755, Nissan Pulsar is £13,275. Although the official mpg figures are much higher, both those petrol cars will comfortably achieve 45mpg in ‘real world’ motoring.

    The petrol costs for a 10,000 mile a year motorist would be approx. £1,200 and £160 rfl saving. So after 10 years the total outlay(buying car and fuel/rfl costs) would be roughly the cost of the purchase price of the Leaf.

    You then have to consider the electricity costs(£250pa?) for 100,000 miles on the Leaf and the cost of borrowing an extra £12k to £14k(or loss of interest). Also the Leaf price includes a £4,500 subsidy(music to the ears!) for EVs.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    My Nissan Leaf brand new cost 12.4k paid in equal installments over 6 years. Because of the way the govt pays pv subsidies a lot of the fuel I put in it is free. My journeys are all short stop start, when I had a 1.6 petrol I got low 20s mpg, when I had a 1.9 diesel I got low 30s. For us the leaf makes sense financially.
    Cool heads and compromise
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 2nd Oct 17, 10:53 PM
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    Cardew
    My Nissan Leaf brand new cost 12.4k paid in equal installments over 6 years.
    Originally posted by michaels
    Is that low purchase price with renting renting the battery pack?

    The fact remains that the list price of the cheapest 30kW Leaf is nearly £26,000 and that is after the £4,500 Government grant.
    • michaels
    • By michaels 2nd Oct 17, 11:29 PM
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    michaels
    Is that low purchase price with renting renting the battery pack?

    The fact remains that the list price of the cheapest 30kW Leaf is nearly £26,000 and that is after the £4,500 Government grant.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    Nope, battery is all mine. Sure the list price was much higher...but has anyone ever paid list price for a car?
    Cool heads and compromise
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 3rd Oct 17, 9:03 AM
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    Cardew
    Nope, battery is all mine. Sure the list price was much higher...but has anyone ever paid list price for a car?
    Originally posted by michaels
    Agreed, almost all cars can be obtained for under list price. Indeed the Hyundai I20 I used as an example above is currently available(on offer) for nearly £2k less than the list price; and that is before you start to barter.

    However if you got(and can still get) a brand new Leaf for half list price, then it becomes a much better proposition.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Oct 17, 12:00 PM
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    Martyn1981
    I've stolen this comment, but I'm sure it's correct:
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    More 'stolen' comments relating to wind generation last night:-

    And GB broke several records yesterday (2 Oct 2017), by my calculations:
    57.9% - highest ever wind penetration
    11.8GW - highest ever wind generation
    64.9 gCO2e/kWh - lowest ever carbon intensity
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 3rd Oct 17, 12:23 PM
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    silverwhistle
    Well, as I type my washing is on the line in full sunshine and a gentle breeze, which will be a lot better offshore/at altitude, and I have a full tank of hot water. The wind/solar combination at the moment must be quite good, I'll have to go and have a look at gridwatch.

    I wanted to comment on the electric vehicle thing, as although I'm sure Zeupater is correct on the achievability of a step change to electric what's important is the fact is so many are thinking about them. The accelerating news from a variety of manufacturers and the increase in the number of models must be having an impact.

    On all the articles I've seen there's always people below the line making plaintivecries of "they won't suit me" as if that's an end to the matter, but I presume those comments will decline.

    My own Hyundai i20 is only 8 years old, so it'll be a few years before I need another car, and who knows what the situation will be then? Maybe I won't be doing my long haul to the Alps for my winter holiday and revisiting old haunts. To be honest I might be finding it difficult to justify a vehicle at all if I'm not playing football in various parts of the county and ferrying ageing parent around locally.

    The changing situation is quite interesting though.
    Last edited by silverwhistle; 03-10-2017 at 12:23 PM. Reason: sp
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Oct 17, 12:25 PM
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    Martyn1981
    And for a change from wind and PV, here's some tidal stream news from Japan, that may bear relevance for other island nations.

    Wave Power Renewable Energy Project Underway In Japan

    Professor Tsumoru Shintake of the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology University thinks wind and solar power are wonderful things. But research in those areas is a crowded field. He wants to investigate other forms of renewable energy, like turbines driven by ocean currents and waves.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 4th Oct 17, 1:47 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Time to shine: Solar power is fastest-growing source of new energy

    Renewables accounted for two-thirds of new power added to world’s grids last year, says International Energy Agency
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Oct 17, 7:33 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Bouncing around articles I fell on this one about replacement battery costs for older Nissan Leafs (24kWh models). The price is $5.5k plus 3 hrs labour.

    Nissan Sets Replacement Cost Of 24 kWh LEAF Battery At $5,499

    That sounds very reasonable, not sure what the UK price is, but even if it was £5.5k that would equal less than 2yrs consumption of petrol for average driving (7,900miles pa, 22 miles per day).

    Add in some finance, leccy bills etc, and perhaps 2 to 3yrs and its completely paid for.

    The warranty on the new battery is the same as it is in a brand new LEAF — 8 years/100,000 miles against defects and 5 years/60,000 miles against capacity loss. “These replacement batteries are the same battery found in 2015 LEAF vehicles, which are also on sale now at Nissan dealers. As a replacement, this battery is expected to provide similar range and charging characteristics as the battery offered since the launch of the LEAF in 2010,” Nissan says.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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