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    • enfield freddy
    • By enfield freddy 8th Mar 15, 3:10 PM
    • 5,920 Posts
    • 3,909 Thanks
    enfield freddy
    If no one else offers , then I will go .......

    I am about 20m away

    Ralph
    Originally posted by Ralph-y



    do you want to borrow my pushbike , might be safer
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 8th Mar 15, 3:19 PM
    • 2,266 Posts
    • 2,764 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    I was thinking Ninja

    Ralph
    • Castle
    • By Castle 8th Mar 15, 3:28 PM
    • 1,205 Posts
    • 1,562 Thanks
    Castle
    Even the House of Lords are asking questions about the Bylaws!
    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2015-02-23.HL5109.h
  • 1stimer
    Lja
    I was thinking of going this week Ralph-y as it was dark at 8pm+ as that was when the driver went to pick up the RK...to get the right lighting Tec... but if you are indeed just 20m away....could you.
  • 1stimer
    Can I just say what great forum and bunch of people you are. Brilliant thank you so very much. I am fuming now. Will post as it all developed. Thanks again.
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 9th Mar 15, 7:52 AM
    • 4,644 Posts
    • 6,114 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    I only live up the road I will get pictures later today, without stopping of course.
    Mind you VCS have the same signs on Dunlop road which is a public highway.
    I have the signs already pre IPC, but will get the current ones later.
    • Parking-Prankster
    • By Parking-Prankster 9th Mar 15, 8:36 AM
    • 306 Posts
    • 1,144 Thanks
    Parking-Prankster
    I only live up the road I will get pictures later today, without stopping of course.
    Mind you VCS have the same signs on Dunlop road which is a public highway.
    I have the signs already pre IPC, but will get the current ones later.
    Originally posted by esmerobbo
    Many thanks. I am especially interested in the size of the fonts. The ones stating the charge is £50 especially, but all of them if possible.


    From these, I can work out how close a driver with legal eyesight must be before they are legally expected to be able to read the signs.


    I presume the site is 30mph (if not, please also let me know the speed limit). From that, I can work out how long the driver has to read the sign. I suspect...not long enough.


    If you have someone with you and can safely get video of driving past the sign at the speed limit that would be awesome too.



    If I was to really push the boat out, the width of the sign, the distance from the edge of the carriageway and (if this is possible to get safely) the approximate width of the carriageway are also very useful. If you cant safely get these, then photos showing them would also be useful (eg, if the width of the sigh is known then other details can be approximately calculated.

    From calculations at other airports, by the time the driver is close enough to read the sign, it is no longer safe (according to the DfT) to read it. I have a blog ready to explain all this, so just waiting for the evidence!


    This is from the DfT signage manual:


    "C" is the distance from the sign where a driver is expected to stop reading the sign - i.e the point where a driver would turn his/her head through 10° or more.


    C = S x cotangent 10° = S x 5.7


    "S" is the off-set distance from the centre of the driving lane to the centre of the sign.



    So for instance, if S, the distance from the centre of the lane to the centre of the sign is 3.5m, C would be 3.5 x 5.7 = 20 metres


    The eyesight test require this:
    You must be able to read (with glasses or contact lenses, if necessary) a car number plate made after 1 September 2001 from 20 metres.

    Numberplate letters are 8cm high.

    So for instance, in the above example where S=3.5 metres, the sign is only readable from 20m away. After that, the driver has to turn their head too much to be safe. At 20m, the font must be at least as big as a numberplate, or 8cm, to be readable by a driver with legal eyesight.

    ...I think you can all see where I am going with this!
    Last edited by Parking-Prankster; 09-03-2015 at 8:53 AM.
    Hi, we’ve approved your signature. It's awesome. Please email the forum team if you want more praise - MSE ForumTeam
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 9th Mar 15, 10:19 AM
    • 4,644 Posts
    • 6,114 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    Signs as of this morning. Looks like someone has removed some and attempted to remove others.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    If you need the actual font measuring let me know.
    Last edited by esmerobbo; 09-03-2015 at 10:25 AM.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 9th Mar 15, 10:28 AM
    • 2,489 Posts
    • 2,504 Thanks
    DoaM
    So it's a No Stopping sign, yet they'll issue a Parking charge notice?
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Parking-Prankster
    • By Parking-Prankster 9th Mar 15, 10:43 AM
    • 306 Posts
    • 1,144 Thanks
    Parking-Prankster
    Yes please for font sizes - vitally important.


    However, in other news I struggle to see how VCS argue a contract is in place if their name is not on most of the sifgns - it was only on one.


    I'll hazard a guess that the font announcing the charge has a lowercase letter size of 1cm, and an uppercase size of 2cm. This would mean a driver of legal eyesight is expected to be able to read the lowercase letters from 2-3 meters away, but no further.


    Did you see any speed limits? is it 30mph or 70? I see it is dual carriageway.


    70mph is 31 metres per second, so a driver would get a generous 1/10 second at most to read the sign.


    At 30mph they get a leisurely 1/4 of a second to read the sign.
    Hi, we’ve approved your signature. It's awesome. Please email the forum team if you want more praise - MSE ForumTeam
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 9th Mar 15, 11:04 AM
    • 2,266 Posts
    • 2,764 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    The entire length of Speke Hall Rd is 40 MPH

    Ralph
    Last edited by Ralph-y; 09-03-2015 at 11:12 AM.
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 9th Mar 15, 12:21 PM
    • 4,644 Posts
    • 6,114 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    Entrance signs main font stating restricted zone is 80mm.
    Conditions font is 40mm.

    Signs are 1.4m from floor 1m in from kerb. 4.5m from tee junction. Facing traffic

    Signs on lamposts and fence No stopping font is 40mm.
    conditions font is 13mm

    Lampost signs are 2.1m up lampost 1.6m from kerb, fence signs are 1.8m up from ground and 4.5m from kerb at 90 degree to
    road.


    [IMG][/IMG]






    [IMG][/IMG]
    • nigelbb
    • By nigelbb 9th Mar 15, 12:47 PM
    • 1,911 Posts
    • 2,659 Thanks
    nigelbb
    Great work esmerobbo but unless you have more photos then you will need to return:-)

    Only the large sign (presumably at the entrance) with the yellow graphic "PCN £100" could be construed as offering a contract & it's that one that has the T&Cs & that's the fonts that need to be measured. The other repeater signs are completely meaningless legally as they don't even have the name of the party who is purporting to offer a contract.

    The simple answer if JLA want to forbid vehicles from stopping on this roadway is to have the Bylaws amended or have the road adopted & a proper TRO in place. However that would then mean that any fines would be paid to the Crown in the Magistrates Court & VCS would get nothing for their £25K annual fishing licence.
    • trisontana
    • By trisontana 9th Mar 15, 12:51 PM
    • 8,908 Posts
    • 13,584 Thanks
    trisontana
    VCS often trundle out the "security" red-herring as an excuse for their behavior. As if sending out a meaningless bit of paper a few weeks after the event is going to deter a terrorist .
    What part of "A whop bop-a-lu a whop bam boo" don't you understand?
    • enfield freddy
    • By enfield freddy 9th Mar 15, 12:51 PM
    • 5,920 Posts
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    enfield freddy
    yup money going in back pockets when its not legal JLA get 25k for selling the rights to issue tickets where they know they have no rights to , they also get a cut of every ticket.


    wrong wrong wrong , however the average "jo punter" does not know this , and they get away with this
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 9th Mar 15, 12:56 PM
    • 4,644 Posts
    • 6,114 Thanks
    esmerobbo

    Only the large sign (presumably at the entrance) with the yellow graphic "PCN £100" could be construed as offering a contract & it's that one that has the T&Cs & that's the fonts that need to be measured.
    Originally posted by nigelbb
    That font is 40mm.

    The large font is 80mm.

    Could not reach the top of the sign, and seem to have somehow lost the picture of the bottom of the main signs. However I shall return.


    Peel's and VCS predatory charging on the next door industrial estate is causing problems for other industrial, and residential estates in the area. Lorries are not allowed to stop on the road to get into the factories, and warehouses on the estate. So if they are early for their booking or late and have to wait they are parking in adjacent industrial estates or on Banks road which is backed on by residential housing.

    It also causes people waiting for passengers at JLA to wait on Dunlop or Hale roads, which is nearer the terminal and apron then Speke hall avenue. So blowing the anti terrorist stance quoted by VCS.
    VCS have put signs on Dunlop and Hale road but people know they are meaningless.
    Last edited by esmerobbo; 09-03-2015 at 1:07 PM.
    • enfield freddy
    • By enfield freddy 9th Mar 15, 1:26 PM
    • 5,920 Posts
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    enfield freddy
    sorry I don,t know the area , is Dunlop rd and hale rd part of the airport private rd complex or public rds
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 9th Mar 15, 1:30 PM
    • 4,644 Posts
    • 6,114 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    sorry I don,t know the area , is Dunlop rd and hale rd part of the airport private rd complex or public rds
    Originally posted by enfield freddy
    No, if you drive along Speke hall avenue just before it changes to a private road were the main signs are, there is a left turn. That is Dunlop road which then becomes Hale road. Which are public highways.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.340278,-2.858273,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sY9OjKXd4wRp3c30eyi3lFA!2e0
    Last edited by esmerobbo; 09-03-2015 at 1:33 PM.
    • enfield freddy
    • By enfield freddy 9th Mar 15, 1:35 PM
    • 5,920 Posts
    • 3,909 Thanks
    enfield freddy
    ok , are they placing there signs on a public rd , by any chance?
    • esmerobbo
    • By esmerobbo 9th Mar 15, 1:46 PM
    • 4,644 Posts
    • 6,114 Thanks
    esmerobbo
    ok , are they placing there signs on a public rd , by any chance?
    Originally posted by enfield freddy
    Yes this is on Dunlop road, however the council say it matters not.

    [IMG][/IMG]
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