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  • FIRST POST
    • screamager45
    • By screamager45 20th Oct 14, 6:11 PM
    • 10Posts
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    screamager45
    Is it worth me appealing to POPLA?
    • #1
    • 20th Oct 14, 6:11 PM
    Is it worth me appealing to POPLA? 20th Oct 14 at 6:11 PM
    Hi

    I've already posted this on Pepipoo, but wanted to get as much information as I can on it.

    I received a parking ticket whilst parked outside my flat in the wrong bay. I had a permit on my car but the number on permit does not correspond to the bay I was parked in as someone else was parked in my bay helping me unload and move in to my new flat.

    I have appealed to Private Parking Solutions and they rejected it, I've spoken to POPLA on the phone and they implied that because I was technically at fault they'd side with the parking company.

    Does anyone think it's worth appealing to POPLA or should I just pay the £60 they are asking for?

    Interestingly their website is currently down and one url redirects to a jeweller based in New York!
    https ://privateparkingsolutions.com/
    https ://privateparkingsolutions.co.uk/

    This is the sign they have up
    http ://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah171/Screamager45/PPSsign_zpsf5cde34d.jpg

    Any help or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Oct 14, 6:20 PM
    • 10,957 Posts
    • 16,350 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 20th Oct 14, 6:20 PM
    • #2
    • 20th Oct 14, 6:20 PM
    Let me take you through this slowly.

    With an almost 100% success rate at POPLA with forum-assisted appeals, why would you think we would advise anything other than .......... yep, that's right, you've guessed it, appealing via POPLA for a guaranteed 'win'.

    Have you read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky towards the top of the forum index? Have you received your POPLA verification code with the PPS rejection letter?
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • screamager45
    • By screamager45 20th Oct 14, 6:30 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    screamager45
    • #3
    • 20th Oct 14, 6:30 PM
    • #3
    • 20th Oct 14, 6:30 PM
    Well that is what I hoped someone would say

    I guess I assumed that because I was parking in the wrong bay I was in the wrong.

    I appealed to the PPC already and was rejected and I have a POPLA reference.

    I'll draft a POPLA letter from the templates and copy it up here as soon as I can.

    Thanks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Oct 14, 9:53 PM
    • 10,957 Posts
    • 16,350 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 20th Oct 14, 9:53 PM
    • #4
    • 20th Oct 14, 9:53 PM
    Well that is what I hoped someone would say

    I guess I assumed that because I was parking in the wrong bay I was in the wrong.

    I appealed to the PPC already and was rejected and I have a POPLA reference.

    I'll draft a POPLA letter from the templates and copy it up here as soon as I can.

    Thanks
    Originally posted by screamager45
    Yep, we'll look it over and guide you through this. Well done on getting yourself successfully through the early parts of the process.

    We'll see you through all the processes necessary, alongside the advice given in NEWBIES FAQ sticky.

    Don't forget, the POPLA verification code is strictly time-limited, so don't let the grass grow under your feet on this!
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • ampersand
    • By ampersand 21st Oct 14, 8:22 AM
    • 7,966 Posts
    • 29,240 Thanks
    ampersand
    • #5
    • 21st Oct 14, 8:22 AM
    • #5
    • 21st Oct 14, 8:22 AM
    op - check that your popla code is valid first[and include it on each page of your Appeal]here:
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/popla-code-checker.html
    CAP[UK]for FREE EXPERT DEBT&BUDGET HELP:01274 760720, freephone0800 328 0006
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    • screamager45
    • By screamager45 21st Oct 14, 11:42 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    screamager45
    • #6
    • 21st Oct 14, 11:42 AM
    • #6
    • 21st Oct 14, 11:42 AM
    Code is valid and I'm drafting the response now, is it worth stating that the charge on the ticket is different to the charge on the sign? It's £65/£110 on the sign and £60/£100 on the ticket.
    • screamager45
    • By screamager45 21st Oct 14, 12:34 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    screamager45
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 14, 12:34 PM
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 14, 12:34 PM
    Ok this is my first draft, built from the sample documents in the Newbies post

    Criticisms and feedback welcomed!

    Charge Reference:
    Vehicle Registration:
    Date & Time of issue:
    Location:

    To POPLA,
    I received a parking charge notice from Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd whilst unloading belongings to my newly purchased flat. For the reasons outlined below I would like to appeal and contest the charge.

    NO BREACH OF CONTRACT AND NO GENUINE PRE-ESTIMATE OF LOSS

    There was no parking charge levied, the car park is private and residential. On the date and time of the claimed loss it was at less than 50% capacity and there was no physical damage caused. There can have been no loss arising from this incident. Neither can Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd lawfully include their operational day-to-day running costs in any 'loss' claimed. I contend there can be no loss shown whatsoever; no pre-estimate (prior to starting to 'charge for breaches' at this site) has been prepared or considered in advance.

    The charge that was levied is punitive and therefore void (i.e. unenforceable) against me. The initial charge is arbitrary and in no way proportionate to any alleged breach of contract. This is all the more so for the additional charges which operator states accrues after 28 days of non-payment. This would also apply to any mentioned costs incurred through debt recovery unless it followed a court order. I would question that if a charge can be discounted by 40% by early payment that it is unreasonable to begin with.
    CONTRACT WITH THE LANDOWNER - NOT COMPLIANT WITH THE BPA CODE OF PRACTICE AND NO LEGAL STATUS TO OFFER PARKING OR ENFORCE CHARGES

    Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd do not own this car park and are assumed to be merely agents for the owner or legal occupier. In their Notice and in the rejection letters, Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd have not provided me with any evidence that it is lawfully entitled to demand money from a driver or keeper, since they do not own nor have any interest or assignment of title of the land in question.

    I would also request that POPLA please check whether Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd have provided a full copy of the actual contemporaneous, signed & dated contract with the landowner/occupier (not just a signed slip of paper saying it exists or someone has witnessed it) and check that it specifically enables this Operator to pursue parking charges in their own name and through the court system. I would also want to see evidence of this. I say that any contract is not compliant with the requirements set out in the BPA Code of Practice.
    I also request that Private Parking Solutions (London) provide POPLA and myself with a copy of the wording of the current imposed permit scheme with proof that the landowner has agreed to/been informed about it as well as a current map of all the areas and bays of that car park where the permit scheme is and is not applicable, as agreed with the landowner.
    Finally I request that Private Parking Solutions (London) supply POPLA and myself with contemporaneous photos of the actual signs on site taken from the view of the driver of a car where the car in question was parked.

    I do not believe that the Operator has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle parking in the car park, or indeed the legal standing to allege a breach of contract. I refer the Adjudicator to the recent Appeal Court decision in the case of Vehicle Control Services (VCS) v HMRC ( EWCA Civ 186 [2013]): The principal issue in this case was to determine the actual nature of Private Parking Charges. It was stated that: "If those charges are consideration for a supply of goods or services, they will be subject to VAT. If, on the other hand, they are damages they will not be." The ruling of the Court was that "I would hold, therefore, that the monies that VCS collected from motorists by enforcement of parking charges were not consideration moving from the landowner in return for the supply of parking services." In other words, they are not, as the Operator asserts, a contractual term. If they were a contractual term, the Operator would have to provide a VAT invoice, to provide a means of payment at the point of supply, and to account to HMRC for the VAT element of the charge. The Appellant asserts that these requirements have not been met. It must therefore be concluded that the Operator's charges are in fact damages, or penalties, for which the Operator must demonstrate his actual, or pre-estimated, losses, as set out above.

    Furthermore, I require that Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd show POPLA proof that they have the right to charge and pursue motorists (including threats of debt recovery and court action) as the parking charge notice makes no reference to the landowner at all implying that Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd owns the land.


    UNCLEAR, INADEQUATE AND NON-COMPLIANT SIGNAGE

    Due to their high position, overall small size and the barely legible size of the small print, the signs in this car park are very hard to read, understand and no notices at all are positioned near the entrance or exists to any of the shops.

    I contend that the signs and any core parking terms Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd are relying upon were too small for any driver to see, read or understand. I request that POPLA check the Operator's evidence and signage map/photos on this point and compare the signs to the BPA Code of Practice requirements. I contend that the signs on this land (wording, position, clarity) do not comply and fail to properly warn/inform the driver of the terms and any consequences for breach, as in the case of Excel Parking Services Ltd v Martin Cutts, 2011 and Waltham Forest v Vine [CCRTF 98/1290/B2])

    UNLAWFUL PENALTY CHARGE

    Since there was no demonstrable loss/damage and yet a breach of contract has been alleged for a residential car park, it can only remain a fact that this 'charge' is an attempt at extorting an unlawful charge to impersonate a parking ticket. This is similar to the decisions in several County Court cases such as Excel Parking Services v Hetherington-Jakeman (2008), also OBServices v Thurlow (review, February 2011), Parking Eye v Smith (Manchester County Court December 2011) and UKCPS v Murphy (April 2012) .

    The operator could state the letter as an invoice or request for monies, but chooses to use the wording “PARKING CHARGE NOTICE” in an attempt to be deemed an official parking fine similar to what the Police and Council Wardens issue.

    NO CONTRACT WITH THE DRIVER

    There is no contract between Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd and the driver, but even if there was a contract then it is unfair as defined in the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. So the requirements of forming a contract such as a meeting of minds, agreement, certainty of terms, etc, were not satisfied.

    UNFAIR TERMS

    The charge that was levied is an unfair term (and therefore not binding) pursuant to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. In particular, Schedule 2 of those Regulations gives an indicative (and non-exhaustive) list of terms which may be regarded as unfair and includes at Schedule 2(1)(e) "Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation." Furthermore, Regulation 5(1) states that: "A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer" and 5(2) states: "A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term."
    UNREASONABLE

    The charge that was levied is an unreasonable indemnity clause pursuant to section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 which provides that: "A person cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.”

    SUMMARY

    On the basis of all the points I have raised, this 'charge' fails to meet the standards set out in paragraph 19 of the BPA CoP and also fails to comply with basic contract law.

    Yours faithfully
    • screamager45
    • By screamager45 21st Oct 14, 3:25 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    screamager45
    • #8
    • 21st Oct 14, 3:25 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Oct 14, 3:25 PM
    Thanks for all the help - appeal submitted - I'll update this thread when I hear back. Does anyone know the average amount of time it takes for POPLA to process appeals?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Oct 14, 1:25 PM
    • 40,355 Posts
    • 52,231 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 23rd Oct 14, 1:25 PM
    • #9
    • 23rd Oct 14, 1:25 PM
    Code is valid and I'm drafting the response now, is it worth stating that the charge on the ticket is different to the charge on the sign? It's £65/£110 on the sign and £60/£100 on the ticket.
    Originally posted by screamager45
    Absolutely yes - you can say this creates an uncertainty of terms. But you can save that for part of your arguments in the important REBUTTAL OF OPERATOR'S EVIDENCE that you must do, when you get PPS' evidence pack. As discussed here in a case just like yours:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5090438

    I am concerned that, like that poster, you didn't use the PPS example of 'How to win at POPLA' from post #3 of the Newbies thread for your draft - so the appeal isn't as robust as it could be. Never mind, the rebuttal will need to be STRONG. We can help.

    Did you appeal too early, when a windscreen PCN was on the car?

    Have you admitted at any stage who was driving?

    Did PPS ever send you a Notice to Keeper in the post a month after the PCN?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 23-10-2014 at 2:10 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • screamager45
    • By screamager45 23rd Oct 14, 2:21 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    screamager45
    Yeah - I phoned them straight away and appealed to them without thinking.

    Will wait and see I guess. I'll be interested to see what evidence they submit.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Oct 14, 10:41 AM
    • 40,355 Posts
    • 52,231 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So will we but we've seen it recently, signed by Sue Blacksmith and let's just say it's a pile of sh1te but definitely needs rebutting, especially as someone lost (and is having to complain to POPLA) because a new Assessor just swallowed it hook, line and sinker when a poster didn't rebut it.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • screamager45
    • By screamager45 16th Nov 15, 10:00 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    screamager45
    Long time no reply, but just wanted everyone in this forum to know I successfully appealed and POPLA cancelled the ticket. Thanks everyone for your advice and help.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 16th Nov 15, 10:11 AM
    • 5,561 Posts
    • 4,268 Thanks
    The Deep
    On what basis did they cancel, GPEOL or no contract. You should now post details on all the notice boards, and raise the matter at the AGM if you are a leaseholder. If you are renting, let your landlord know.

    FWIIW, if you had parked in one of my spaces I would have let your tyre down.
    • alparking
    • By alparking 12th Oct 16, 12:25 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    alparking
    Parking fine £200 on Private car park!
    Hi Could anyone help?
    I've had 2 tickets this summer from PCN company from a private parking company Totalling £200
    I paid for parking every day I was on holiday andsomehow kept my tickets

    Ticket Fine 1. shows I underpaid by 20p i I paid £3 rather than £3.20

    Ticket Fine 2. shows I paid in full and then some but I typed my registration in wrong 1 digit was incorrect.

    I appealed to the Company, with photocopies
    Ticket Fine 1. this was rejected by the Private company

    Ticket Fine 2. They said they'd discount the fine to £20 but feel in principle this just isn't right

    My question really is it worth going through the POPLA website. if so could anyone give me some advice
    Much appreciated if you can

    Many Thanks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Oct 16, 12:28 PM
    • 10,957 Posts
    • 16,350 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    You need to start a new thread of your own please. One case only per thread.

    Put the full name of the parking company in your new thread, then advice will come through. You're a bit vague at the moment on who issued the ticket.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Chrisey
    • By Chrisey 16th Oct 16, 9:50 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Chrisey
    Ukcps the range carmarthen south wales
    I'm so distraught, I wasn't well and parked in the range disabled bay, needed the loo as I have medical problems, I am diabetic and have fibromyalgia both make you forgetful, I'm nearly 62, memory problems, I forgot to put my blue badge up, I wasn't even aware I was in a parking site you have to pay in, anyway that day I wasn't well came from an appoint that was stressful at my clinic, I even forget my shopping at the range and had to go back in to get it, I left it on the tills, when I got home I noticed a parking charge stuck on my windscreen, 11.00. - 1105. The loos are way up the lift and at back of store, I could never have got there and back and shopped within 5 mins of receiving this charge. £100. Oh my where do I find that sort of money, I suffer with mental health problems and this is tipping me over the edge, I have written to the range they say this is to stop unauthorised use of their car parks (but I was a customer that day), I have written explaining to ukcps that I don't have to give the name of the driver but explained what happened. No reply. What can I do please help? Should I borrow £100 I'm devastated, my memory is awful I was being tested for dementia at one point but I'm ok, just all my meds making me confused and my illnesses making me forget things.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 16th Oct 16, 10:15 PM
    • 5,349 Posts
    • 4,876 Thanks
    pappa golf
    I have answered your other post , please do not tag onto other posts that are a different company and old , please go to your post /edit/advanced and delete it , I will then drlete this post
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Oct 16, 1:25 PM
    • 40,355 Posts
    • 52,231 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Hi Could anyone help?
    I've had 2 tickets this summer from PCN company from a private parking company Totalling £200
    I paid for parking every day I was on holiday andsomehow kept my tickets

    Ticket Fine 1. shows I underpaid by 20p i I paid £3 rather than £3.20

    Ticket Fine 2. shows I paid in full and then some but I typed my registration in wrong 1 digit was incorrect.

    I appealed to the Company, with photocopies
    Ticket Fine 1. this was rejected by the Private company

    Ticket Fine 2. They said they'd discount the fine to £20 but feel in principle this just isn't right

    My question really is it worth going through the POPLA website. if so could anyone give me some advice
    Much appreciated if you can

    Many Thanks
    Originally posted by alparking
    Please start your own thread!

    Back on the main page of the parking forum. If you need help, hit the 'user help' tab or re-watch the 'new to the forum' video when you signed up.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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