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  • FIRST POST
    • Daniel san
    • By Daniel san 13th Jul 14, 4:27 PM
    • 170Posts
    • 177Thanks
    Daniel san
    New parking regulations at home...
    • #1
    • 13th Jul 14, 4:27 PM
    New parking regulations at home... 13th Jul 14 at 4:27 PM
    Hi all, I've been reading through threads for a few days now, including the "newbies" and guides - all great info and very much appreciated.

    I'm always very careful to check notices when out and about and parking up, so have avoided any charges so far, but something happened a few weeks ago which has annoyed me, although I must stress it only comes into force next week, I'm looking for a bit of specific guidance if you would be so kind please

    From posts I've read, I gather the following info will help you to help me.
    I am in England
    I am over 18
    The vehicle is not a lease car

    I live in an apartment block, with a leasehold purchase, and have done so since it was newly built in 2007. I am allocated a single parking bay as part of my lease. Until these notices were put in place recently, there has been no parking enforcement in place in any way, just a gate to the car park, opened by a remote fob. This new parking situation has been initiated by the managing agents for the apartments, but not something I've been asked to agree to.

    A few weeks ago, I came home to find the following notice on display in various locations around the car park (edit: oh, I can't post an image as I'm a new member )


    I've read on here that I should ignore any screen ticket, wait 28 days, I should get a NTK within 56 days.

    My question really is, given the above information on my specific scenario, does any of the advice I have read on here change, should I happen get a ticket on my windscreen please?

    I really don't want this round sticker on my windscreen....I'm happy the tax disc is finally going bye bye in October, but now I'll have to have this NCS Parking sticker/advert on my car instead anyway!

    I thank you for your time and help in advance.

    Regards
    Dan
Page 14
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 4th Sep 17, 2:28 PM
    • 473 Posts
    • 877 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Same address for Estates and Management, who collect my ground rent charges twice yearly.
    Ah yes, good old Estates & Management ...

    They are the company that appear to collect Ground Rent for all the companies (some mentioned above) that actually own the land that each of those companies individually hold. Notice the three common directors/secretaries on all those companies and then the common secretary between those companies and E&M.

    I would say make a complaint to them, however in your case by going RTM I suspect you have severed their (Theowal LTD or E&M) responsibility for appointing a Management Agent. Who was the Management Agent before you went RTM? (I have a sneaking suspicion I will know the answer - was it perchance Peverel ...)

    However the good news for you ... I doubt this group of companies would have any interest at all in the policing of the parking on this land, all they want is the ground rent paid on time. It is extremely unlikely they have even heard of or know of the PPC on this site or have a contract with them. So the trail from the landowner appears to be clearly broken ... unless as part of the RTM, in your case, Theowal LTD, ceded any authority to the land to the RTM company (in this case the Company for which you are not a Director, not Warwick Estates who are just agents of that Company).

    However, I suspect, despite going RTM, your lease is still with the real landowner and if what your RTM Company have done breaches that lease ... well it will be interesting to see who you can now rope into this dispute, however it could get quite messy ...

    Be interested to hear other legal views on this (maybe Jonersh or LOC123's).

    Do you have a share in your RTM Company even though you are not a Director and is it a Limited Company?
    Last edited by safarmuk; 04-09-2017 at 2:33 PM.
    • Daniel san
    • By Daniel san 4th Sep 17, 2:57 PM
    • 170 Posts
    • 177 Thanks
    Daniel san
    haha OM - Peveral yes indeedio! Useless shower of 5hite! Not sure who's worse tbh at this point.

    Based on comms so far, both verbally and via email, the land owner wasn't aware of the PPC on site, and hasn't been aware of the two previous PPC's either. They don't feel it's anything to do with them, it's down to MA and RTM. They have not signed any agreement with regards PPC's. They are still the legal land owner. I got all this through several phone calls and emails for parking info and because I want consent to replace carpets with wood flooring and wanted info about approved underlay for reasons of sound insulation as I am on the top floor and don't want to be paying for the job to be done twice because downstairs complain about noise transmitting. The land owner / E&M, have now informed me that consent for minor things such as this, are handled by the MA & RTM (oh joy), so I'm not waiting for them to respond to my request.... If I wanted to make more, major changes, then the land owner would be the one to provide consent where applicable.

    I'm certainly not aware of any transfer of interest with regards the land to the MA / RTM. The RTM process involved us saying yes or no to RTM, then I received copies of a document served upon Theowal by the MA to formalise the process, with a date given, and a list of all leaseholders name and their plot/flat number (most are buy to let anyway). That was it. Apparently there should have been an invitation to participate, which possibly gave the opportunity to become a director at the outset, but I never received this, unless it was part of the same letter, or meant to be.

    Thank you
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 4th Sep 17, 3:12 PM
    • 473 Posts
    • 877 Thanks
    safarmuk
    haha OM - Peveral yes indeedio!
    I know them well [they are now called Firstport Property Services Ltd.], I believe they used to be part of the same group as all those land owning companies mentioned above. Eventually they ceded from that group it seems and E&M was set up to collect Ground Rent only whereas Peverel (now an independent MA) did the Service Charge ... not sure how long you have owned your flat but if long enough you would probably remember the days when your Ground Rent and Service Charge came in the same invoice and from Peverel. The dates on Companies House (and previous familiar Directors who resigned) gives you a clue to when this all happened. Although Peverel had issues, so many times I have now heard from people that "in hindsight, they were better than the lot who replaced them ..."

    Based on comms so far, both verbally and via email, the land owner wasn't aware of the PPC on site, and hasn't been aware of the two previous PPC's either.
    They won't be and won't care that much either, especially given you are RTM. However, if this is breaching your lease you can make them care because simply speaking (albeit it is clouded with RTM because E&M did not make the MA appointment) your lease is with Theowal LTD and they I believe have an obligation to ensure it is not breached (now bear in mind its possible they could subsequently come down on your RTM Company like a tonne of bricks - of which you are most likely a shareholder). Do you know the name of the RTM Company, if so PM it to me (if you don't want to put it here) and I will look into it.

    The land owner / E&M, have now informed me that consent for minor things such as this, are handled by the MA & RTM (oh joy),
    I'm not convinced ... E&M have a form you can fill in and submit for modifications such as this (it might even be an option on the automated phone system when you call them). If I were you, I would do this by the book as given your situation in the RTM they may come after you if you put a foot wrong.

    I'm certainly not aware of any transfer of interest with regards the land to the MA / RTM.
    This is key, no transfer of rights to the RTM Company, then doubtful locus standi for the PPC frankly. Your RTM Company should have documents, (e.g. memorandums etc.) ... ideally if you could get hold of those it would be helpful.

    One other piece of information that would be very useful to you is your E&M Ground Rent bills for the periods of the PCNs. This bill will show clearly who is the land owner and if there is no contract between the PPC and that company then you have evidence that contradicts the PPC's evidence that they have land owner authority (unless of course authority has been ceded - I would ring up E&M and ask them to confirm whether this is true or not, I very much doubt E&M would have done or allowed that).
    Last edited by safarmuk; 04-09-2017 at 3:57 PM.
    • Daniel san
    • By Daniel san 4th Sep 17, 4:14 PM
    • 170 Posts
    • 177 Thanks
    Daniel san
    Fantastic info, thank you, I really do appreciate it.

    I've owned the place for 10 years now. Solitaire (I just remembered that was the first name) / OM / Peveral were pretty useless, but they didn't ignore residents rights like this lot.

    AFAIA, I'm not a shareholder. Only the directors are shareholders with something like a £1 liability I think it says in the articles. I'll pm you the RTM co name for sure, as it's the actual site name, and that's best kept out of easy searching

    Consent: Good point, I think I'll go through their phone system or website and see if I can find a consent form to complete.

    Ground rent demand clearly states Theowal Limited and their address as the land owner, with E&M as the collector of the payment.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 4th Sep 17, 4:29 PM
    • 473 Posts
    • 877 Thanks
    safarmuk

    ALTERATIONS AND CONSENTS

    The Landlord's consent is often required prior to any alterations being carried out. Consent may be required for major or minor alterations. Some common examples include:
    Removing walls
    Adding extensions or conservatories
    Replacing windows or doors
    Replacing internal fixtures and fittings
    Keeping pets

    Our specialist Consents Team is ready to assist you in seeking any appropriate Landlord consents, carefully reviewing any queries or proposals you may have.
    https://www.e-m.uk.com/services/alterations-and-consents/

    Get their approval and then present the fait accompli to your RTM company
    Last edited by safarmuk; 04-09-2017 at 4:31 PM.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 4th Sep 17, 4:48 PM
    • 473 Posts
    • 877 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Got your PM and messaged you back. You need to go to the Companies House page for your RTM Company, click on the Filing History Tab and download the (25 page) PDF titled "Incorporation" (March 2012)... essentially that document lays out the rights and obligations of the RTM Company (section 5), its Directors (part 2) etc.

    There are interesting sections on Conflicts of Interest (19), Records of decisions to be kept (20) [10 years], Becoming a Member (26) [for £1 you can become a member] and Inspection and copying of accounts and other records (41). I would suggest you start using this document to your advantage with the help of people on here.

    This is all just from a very quick skim, before further action you need to read it and with the help of people on here pick it apart and use it ... so everyone can see it you could download it redact the personal and identifiable information, host it and link it here.

    I also note the link between your MA and your RTM Company. You know about that?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 4th Sep 17, 5:46 PM
    • 7,005 Posts
    • 6,077 Thanks
    The Deep
    I wonder how much all this argy bargy has cost the residents. Someone should ask for the figure at the AGM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 4th Sep 17, 5:53 PM
    • 473 Posts
    • 877 Thanks
    safarmuk
    I wonder how much all this argy bargy has cost the residents. Someone should ask for the figure at the AGM.
    @TheDeep, correct, however Dan has been thwarted and stonewalled previously in his attempts to get information from the RTM Company, However I firmly believe the "incorporation" document he is going to hopefully redact and put up here for dissection by the likes of you, me and those legally trained on here is the document that may finally force transparency and common sense. I have seen it and from a quick scan it is very detailed on what can, cannot and should be done. From this thread it would appear there are discrepancies ...
    Last edited by safarmuk; 04-09-2017 at 5:55 PM.
    • Daniel san
    • By Daniel san 4th Sep 17, 6:01 PM
    • 170 Posts
    • 177 Thanks
    Daniel san
    There's no requirement for the RTM co to have an AGM so all requests I've made for one or for a meeting, have been denied.

    I'm looking at getting the document and redacting it now.

    Thank you
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 4th Sep 17, 6:08 PM
    • 7,005 Posts
    • 6,077 Thanks
    The Deep
    A few years back a resident in my block tried to form a RTM company. I was against it, (as were several others) because the chap was a bit of an opinionated but ill informed blowhard. In the end, he spent nearly £2,000 of his own money to no avail.

    The point of this is that RTM companies often attract certain types of people, not all of whom you would wish to have in your corner. If DS can prove that the RTM has been squandering residents' money, there may be a case for their dismissal.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Daniel san
    • By Daniel san 4th Sep 17, 6:27 PM
    • 170 Posts
    • 177 Thanks
    Daniel san
    Redacted Incorporation pdf
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/m9nzk93twmn4nqr/incorporation.pdf?dl=0

    I have the whole thing saved as 25 jpg files, but I assume nobody wants them all posted on here?

    Thank you
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 6th Sep 17, 4:44 PM
    • 473 Posts
    • 877 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Bump, I haven't had time to look, but bumping this up for others who can review the document Dan posted to help him get his court action stopped and his site under control
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Sep 17, 1:05 AM
    • 50,082 Posts
    • 63,469 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Bump, I haven't had time to look, but bumping this up for others who can review the document Dan posted to help him get his court action stopped and his site under control
    Originally posted by safarmuk
    Same...bumping it for others to see & comment on.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Daniel san
    • By Daniel san 7th Sep 17, 11:33 AM
    • 170 Posts
    • 177 Thanks
    Daniel san
    Thank you both
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 7th Sep 17, 12:24 PM
    • 1,071 Posts
    • 1,872 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    I'm not a land law practitioner so feel a bit out of my depth on the legal standing of RTMs viz landowner's continued liability.


    Bodies like a Managing Agent/Company would be viewed as acting as the landlord's agent and so the landlord remains liable for their breaches of your rights under the lease. Not sure about RTMs - on the one hand I would have thought the same principle applies, but on the other hand these are residents who have taken control (not been granted rights voluntarily) so it might be said they are NOT acting as agents so landlord is not liable for their interference with your rights.


    However, RTM must owe you their own duty not to interfere with your pre-existing rights.


    There is bound to be a lot of info on google about RTMs and their liabilities.


    At the centre of this is your leasehold rights: what are they and is there any process by which they can be altered (eg. there is usually some sort of clause that says new regulations can be imposed for the good running of the development and you have to assess carefully how these are defined and whether the new parking regs come under the clause - even if they do, there will be no right to impose a contract with a third party and penalties/payments separate/additional to the service charge/ground rent provisions - dealt with in some detail in my original LBCs on hairray's thread)
    • Daniel san
    • By Daniel san 8th Sep 17, 7:53 PM
    • 170 Posts
    • 177 Thanks
    Daniel san
    Thank you LOC.

    I've gone over the lease again today and pulled out what I think are all relevant clauses regarding parking, along anything regarding good management or right to impose changes.I've compiled them into a single image file below.


    https://www.dropbox.com/s/9kni4sty405hkcv/lease-extracts.jpg?dl=0

    For a long time, the MA have placed reliance upon clause 5.4 Power to Impose or Vary Regulations. To me this is quite clear, the "LESSOR" may.... and the LESSOR has not, at any time, even attempted to impose any changes in any way. The MA eventually run out of argument, and passed the matter to a solicitor, who as CM will remember, tried to crush me with one letter, got a lot of case law thrown back at them, and then after a 2 month wait, replied to say they were not going to debate it further, and that they believed their client was correct

    Any info appreciated, thank you.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Sep 17, 1:28 AM
    • 50,082 Posts
    • 63,469 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Bumping for comments tomorrow...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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