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  • FIRST POST
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Nov 13, 5:35 PM
    • 53,902Posts
    • 67,587Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    **NEWBIES!! PRIVATE PARKING TICKET? OLD OR NEW? **READ THESE FAQS FIRST!** Thankyou!
    • #1
    • 10th Nov 13, 5:35 PM
    **NEWBIES!! PRIVATE PARKING TICKET? OLD OR NEW? **READ THESE FAQS FIRST!** Thankyou! 10th Nov 13 at 5:35 PM
    WELCOME!

    HOW TO BEAT A PRIVATE PCN: BY APPEAL, COMPLAINT, OR DEFENCE.


    PLEASE ONLY START A NEW THREAD IF YOUR QUESTION IS NOT ANSWERED HERE, OR IN OTHER THREADS YOU SEARCH FOR AND FIND FIRST, OR IF THE STAGE YOU ARE AT IS COMPLICATED (e.g. COURT CLAIM STAGE, DO POST AND SHOW US YOUR DRAFT DEFENCE, BUT READ POST #2 BELOW, FIRST). OR AT POPLA STAGE, DO SHOW US YOUR APPEAL DRAFT (BUT DO READ POST #3 BELOW, FIRST).


    BEFORE YOU USE THE FORUM, IF YOU ARE NOT SURE HOW TO USE IT, WATCH THIS Forum Introduction Guide video:

    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/site/forum-introduction-guide

    AND READ THESE; YOU'LL SOON BE UP TO SPEED AND MAY FIND YOUR ANSWER BY SEARCHING FOR SIMILAR POSTS:

    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/faqs/how-do-i-ask-a-question-on-the-forum/

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_vb3_board_usage

    DO NOT USE YOUR OWN REAL NAME AS YOUR USERNAME! TAKE HEED - READ THIS HELPFUL POST FROM CATFUNT:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5532696

    PLEASE FIRSTLY READ OTHER THREADS LIKE YOURS, EITHER ON THE FIRST FEW PAGES OF THIS FORUM, OR BY SEARCHING FOR THE PARKING FIRM'S NAME. THIS FORUM IS VERY BUSY SO WE NEED TO CONCENTRATE HELP FOR THOSE WHO ARE AT A STAGE THAT NEEDS ASSISTANCE (NOT 'IGNORE THE DEBT COLLECTORS' STAGE! WE FIND THAT MOST POSTERS DO NOT NEED SPECIFIC HELP AT FIRST APPEAL STAGE.






    FAQS FIRST. NO THREAD IS NEEDED IF YOUR QUESTIONS ARE:


    Q - ''My PCN is from a Council (e.g. bus lane, box junction or parking PENALTY) so does this thread apply?''

    A - NO, BUT THEY CAN BE APPEALED. GO TO 'PEPIPOO.COM' COUNCIL TICKETS FORUM INSTEAD.


    Q - ''I have read the NEWBIES thread but cannot find anything specific to my case...my case is different''.

    A - NO IT ISN'T. YOU DO NOT NEED SPECIFICS. FORGET THE DETAIL, MOST CASES ARE ALL THE SAME.


    Q - ''Is this info up to date, because this thread was started in 2013?''

    A - YES, IT IS. SEE THE DATE LAST EDITED IN 2018 AS SHOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST.[/B]


    Q -''Where else can I go for free advice, how about Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB)?''

    A - THE CAB (SADLY) INVARIABLY GIVE TERRIBLE ADVICE ABOUT THESE CHARGES (HAVE EVEN DONE SO OFFICIALLY ON THIS FORUM), SO AVOID! A VERY GOOD FREE RESOURCE IS THE CHARITY CALLED THE 'BRITISH MOTORISTS' PROTECTION ASSOCIATION' (BMPA). YOU DON'T NEED TO PAY FOR THIS ADVICE.


    Q - ''I don't understand any of your acronyms, this is too complicated!''

    A - THE USUAL ACRONYMS ARE EXPLAINED LOWER DOWN THIS THREAD, SEPARATELY, IN POST #5. APPEALING IS NOT COMPLICATED, YOUR APPEAL IS ALREADY WRITTEN FOR YOU BELOW FOR YOU TO COPY & PASTE INTO THE PPC's ONLINE APPEAL PAGE. AS THE FORUM IS TOO BUSY, PLEASE DON'T COPY IT INTO A NEW THREAD AND ASK 'DO I SUBMIT THIS?' YES...!


    Q -''I got a windscreen PCN, I've checked the BPA & IPC lists of AOS members but can't find the company''

    A - IF YOU ARE UNSURE, START A THREAD TO DOUBLE CHECK THE COMPANY NAME, BUT IF A PARKING FIRM IS NOT IN EITHER THE BPA OR IPC 'APPROVED OPERATOR' SCHEMES, OR ARE SHOWING AS CURRENTLY BANNED, DO NOT APPEAL AT ALL. THEY CANNOT GET YOUR ADDRESS AND YOU WILL NEVER HEAR ANY MORE!


    Q - ''My PCN says the 'fine' will go up after 14 days, so why are you suggesting I wait before appealing?''

    A - FORGET THE '14 DAYS JITTERS'. THE SO-CALLED 'DISCOUNT' IS A BRIBE NOT TO APPEAL - YOU CANNOT DO BOTH - BUT WE ACHIEVE 100% DISCOUNT IN ALMOST EVERY CASE.

    Q - ''My PCN is from an IPC member, should I really not try IAS, and why not?''

    A - If it's PCM then give it a go as they seem to enter 'no contests' sometimes, but otherwise, no chance unless you have something ground-shattering like proof there are NO signs up, or if they've said you were the driver/keeper and you are neither (e.g. if you are a non-driving resident and appealed instead of a family member keeper/driver, then it can be fun to expose the PPC to that fact at IAS, proving you can't drive!). Normal appeal facts like 'I was not the driver, no keeper liability' don't cut it with the IAS which is deemed to be a kangaroo court, and losing that stage will make most posters feel worse, and more worried. SO DON'T!


    Q - ''My PCN is from UKCPM, or UKCPS, or Millennium (etc.) and it/the signs say they are both BPA & IPC members?''

    A - NO, THEY ARE NOT, AND PLEASE NO MORE THREADS ASKING THIS!
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5784929


    Q - ''My windscreen notice says it's 'NOT A PCN' from 'myparkingcharge.co.uk' so is it a PCN?''

    A - YES AND NO! THIS IS DISCUSSED ON OTHER THREADS - SEARCH THE FORUM FOR 'myparkingcharge.co.uk'


    Q - ''My windscreen Notice is a 'PENALTY' from a Railway car park, issued by a private firm (Indigo), what do I do?''

    A - JANUARY 2018 UPDATE: DVLA SAYS INDIGO ARE NOT REQUESTING DVLA DATA FOR THESE. THEREFORE, IGNORE A WINDSCREEN PENALTY FROM INDIGO (ONLY IF THE LOCATION WAS A RAILWAY CAR PARK) AND WAIT AND SEE IF THEY ISSUE A NOTICE TO KEEPER AT ALL. THEN IF THEY DO, APPEAL AS KEEPER USING THE TEMPLATE BELOW. IT SEEMS LIKELY YOU WILL HEAR NOTHING, IN WHICH CASE, DO NOTHING.


    Q - ''My vehicle is lease/hired/company car and I'm not the registered keeper. Is the advice different?''

    A - YES, PLEASE SEE THE SECTION ABOUT LEASE/HIRE/COMPANY CARS AT THE FOOT OF THIS POST*


    Q - ''I'm in Scotland/NI, so is the advice different?''

    A - IF THE EVENT TOOK PLACE IN SCOTLAND OR NI, WE SUGGEST YOU DO (ALWAYS!) COMPLAIN TO STORE MANAGEMENT IF YOUR PCN IS FROM A RETAIL PARK, BUT DO NOT APPEAL, UNLESS YOUR CAR IS A COMPANY/HIRE/LEASED VEHICLE, IN WHICH CASE, APPEAL AS HIRER/LESSEE (SEE * AT THE FOOT OF THIS POST).

    IN SCOTLAND/NI, DO NOT BE ALARMED BY ODD POSTS SUGGESTING YOU SHOULD 'NAME THE DRIVER'...FOR OBVIOUS REASONS THIS IS NOT THE MAJORITY VIEW AND SIMPLY ABANDONS THE DRIVER (USUALLY A FAMILY MEMBER) TO THE PARKING SHARKS, WITH A LESS STRONG DEFENCE. CERTAINLY COMPLAIN TO THE RETAILERS, BUT IGNORE THE PARKING FIRM UNLESS YOU GET A CLAIM. IN SCOTLAND THIS IS EXCEEDINGLY RARE, AND DEFENDABLE BY A KEEPER, WHO CURRENTLY HAS A FAR MORE PROTECTED POSITION IN LAW THAN AN ADMITTED DRIVER.

    WHEN IGNORING IN SCOTLAND/NI, KEEP ALL LETTERS. DO NOT THROW THEM AWAY, FOR 5 YEARS.


    Q - ''I am getting debt collector letters! They're really scary, the 'fine' has gone up, what do I do?''

    A - NOTHING! Unless this is the VERY FIRST letter (England/Wales) in which case, appeal as if it was the 'Notice to Keeper'. DO NOT RING THE DEBT COLLECTOR - DON'T TAKE THE BAIT! See post #4 below, please NO NEW THREADS RE 'IGNORING THE DEBT COLLECTORS' STAGE.


    Q - ''I have a (non-debt collector) Letter Before County Court Claim (LBCCC), or a Court Claim, or a CCJ that I have just discovered - is it too late to beat this - should I now pay?''

    A - IT IS NOT TOO LATE. WE WIN 99% OF WELL-DEFENDED COURT CLAIMS! CERTAINLY DON'T RUSH TO PAY OFF A CCJ, WHICH OFTEN DOES NOT REMOVE IT. THESE CAN BE BEATEN. SEE POST #2.


    Q - ''Why isn't this sort of rip-off scam illegal? I thought these were unenforceable.''

    A - Private charges are based on contract law and allege either that the driver breached a contractual term (e.g. a promise not to overstay a 2 hour free period) or accepted an offer to park for a large fee (e.g. 'by parking here without a permit, you agree to pay £100 per day'). Such contracts can be enforceable in the county court, but are defendable (see post #2 all about small claim defences).

    Charges are not 'illegal' but this cowboy industry is skating on thin ice in 2018. These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.


    ALL CASES - COMPLAIN FIRST, ESPECIALLY OVER A RETAIL, HOTEL, OR HOSPITAL CAR PARK:

    Always complain to the Retailer very quickly and assertively, WITH A RECEIPT IF POSSIBLE:

    Successful complaints about private parking tickets - how to get them cancelled! <<< CLICK

    See how easy it can be to get these cancelled by a retailer/hotel/landowner. VERY EFFECTIVE AND DAMAGES THE PPC!


    ALSO PLEASE COMPLAIN TO YOUR MP AND TO TRADING STANDARDS; AS SUGGESTED BY 'THE DEEP':

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5787877


    ****************************


    Appealing a private PCN (England & Wales ONLY)


    Windscreen ticket from a BPA member? = STOP - wait and research before appealing!!

    If it was a windscreen 'PCN' (not postal, and not an Indigo Railway 'penalty' - see Q&A above) wait 3 weeks and in that time, you MUST check the firm is an AOS member with the BPA or IPC (GOOGLE & CHECK THEIR LISTS). In the case of CURRENT BRITISH PARKING ASSOCIATION (BPA) AOS MEMBERS ONLY, appeal online or by email at around day 26 after a windscreen PCN but as the KEEPER, not driver, using the ''one size fits all'' blue appeal template below.


    Q - ''WAIT! I want to appeal now! Why wait till day 26 before appealing a BPA member windscreen PCN?''

    A - To tie them up in the appeals process at a time when they should also be posting a Notice to Keeper (NTK). Many PPCs in the BPA omit any NTK when replying to an appeal and the very fact a PPC forgets to send you a NTK by day 56, gives you a winning point at POPLA! Don't forget this tactic, and use it at POPLA stage: having appealed on day 25 or 26 after a windscreen PCN, make sure you take note of whether any postal NTK is ever received in the following weeks. A rejection letter with POPLA code is not a 'NTK'. You must include 'no keeper liability' at POPLA stage if you do NOT receive a NTK at all in that time, and you will win.



    IPC members are different:

    In the case of CURRENT IPC AOS MEMBERS ONLY, we now advise to WAIT for a Notice to Keeper to arrive and then challenge once online or by email, as the KEEPER, not driver, using the template appeal for IPC members, as shown below.

    Q -''Why wait for the 'NTK' to arrive a month later, after finding an IPC member windscreen PCN?''

    A: Because there has been shown to be no appeal worth trying really, you will get a rejection anyway, so you may as well leave it and see if they issue a NTK and let them apply to the DVLA (unless yours is a company or lease car of course, in which case you MUST appeal at windscreen PCN stage as stated at the end of this thread). Also, letting an IPC member get the data from the DVLA places obligations upon the PPC in the processing of that data which can have data protection implications for them if they misuse it (for example if they try to 'sell' the parking charge to a third party like MIL Collections).



    Postal PCN from a BPA or IPC member ? (i.e. with no mention of any windscreen ticket):

    A postal PCN or NTK might be headed up 'Reminder' or 'Charge Notice' or it may even be a letter from a debt collector - it is your Notice to Keeper, in effect, if it's the first letter to arrive. No need to wait, if the event was in England/Wales, appeal online as registered keeper (or as ''hirer/lessee'' if that's the case, see * below re lease/hire cars).



    ************************************************** ******


    TEMPLATE ''ONE SIZE FITS ALL'' FIRST APPEAL THAT DOESN'T SAY WHO WAS DRIVING

    - if this is a BPA member parking firm, the point is to get a POPLA code if you do not get it cancelled.

    - this is why not to name the driver (thanks to The Slithy Tove for this explanation):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69906180#post69906180




    ************************************************** **********************


    Template appeal for BPA or IPC members - copy this wording into the online appeal box::




    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Re PCN number:

    I am the keeper of the vehicle which received this purported 'parking charge'. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. I am not liable and I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs are in small print and the onerous terms are not readable.

    Should you fail to cancel this PCN immediately, I require the following information with your template rejection:

    1. Does your charge represent damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    2. Please provide dated photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract.
    3. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.

    I am alarmed by your contact and I do not give you consent to process any data relating to me, or this vehicle. I deny liability and will not respond to debt collectors. You must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA, and should you fail to respond accordingly, your company will be reported to the Information Commissioner.

    I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and will also be making a formal complaint to your client landowner.

    If you are a current BPA member, send me a POPLA code. If you are an IPC firm, cease and desist with all contact.

    Yours faithfully,



    THE NAME AND POSTAL ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER GOES HERE. THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.

    NO NEED TO USE YOUR REAL SIGNATURE - BUT DON'T POST UNLESS YOU HAVE TO - ALWAYS USE THE ONLINE APPEAL PAGE - OR EMAIL IF OFFERED AS AN OPTION ON THE NOTICE - BECAUSE THE APPEAL CANNOT GET LOST AND YOU CAN KEEP PROOF/ A SCREENSHOT [/FONT]

    You can (carefully!) add a little to the template above, 'in order to resolve the dispute I attach copies of...':

    - the driver's receipts/bank transactions (or Hospital Appointment/Hotel booking, etc.) that day as 'they' were a genuine customer/patient, etc.

    - If an occupant of the car is disabled or elderly/infirm, then the keeper can add that, without implying who was driving. A copy of the Blue Badge (BB) is a good idea to upload/attach, but a person with a long-term debilitating condition (not a broken arm!) can be disabled without a BB, and will be legally entitled to a 'reasonable adjustment'. That can and should include an extension of time, over and above free or paid-for parking time.



    ************************************************** ******

    Want to dig deeper? Check the compliance of your Notice to Keeper, if the PPC is citing 'keeper liability' under the POFA. Here's a link to Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 which applies in England/Wales only (look for the words shown in paragraph 8 if it's a 'windscreen ticket followed by a NTK', or the words in paragraph 9 if it's a postal PCN only):

    [/FONT]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

    If the NTK arrives late, this does not make the PCN 'void' but it means there is 'no keeper liability' possible.

    If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to!) the a postal PCN must arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket.

    Or, the NTK must arrive with you between day 29 and day 57 if there was a windscreen PCN.

    Some firms (e.g. Civil Enforcement, Highview, Smart Parking and some small PPCs) don't even bother with POFA 2012 wording so the keeper is not liable if you point that out to POPLA.




    ************************************************** ***************************


    * COMPANY, LEASE OR HIRE CARS ANYWHERE IN THE UK

    In the case of a company car or hire car, if you get a windscreen ticket you MUST appeal before day 28 (well before day 21 when it's an IPC firm which only 'offers' 21 days to appeal - check the PCN). This is in order to hook the PPC in your direction, before they get a chance to get the keeper's details from the DVLA.

    You should also warn the owner/keeper (Fleet Manager) not to pay if they do get a letter about it because they have no business to get involved in a fake PCN you have already appealed as driver, and you won't reimburse them if they are daft enough to pay it.

    If the hire/lease co gets a postal PCN and names you as the driver/hirer, that is a good thing as it removes them from the loop entirely and then you can follow the above advice as appropriate to your case - but check and see if they have charged an admin fee. Challenge that admin fee with the Fleet Manager, Hire firm or your HR Manager, if your car use t&cs do not support this deduction for a mere invoice (as opposed to a fine/penalty).

    Here are some examples of a successful first appeal. These examples relate to a situation where the PPC has (pretty much ALWAYS!) failed to send the required documents to the hirer (you) with the postal Notice, by day 21 after the date they were informed of the hirer's details:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5703794

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69859059#post69859059

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69767583#post69767583


    Thanks to Edna Basher for the template appeal for when it's a Hire/company/lease car and a postal Notice has been sent out, after the hirer/lessee/company car user has been named. Remember, that does not mean they have named the 'driver'! So stay schtum about who was driving!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 06-02-2018 at 12:04 AM. Reason: n
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 14, 7:42 PM
    • 53,902 Posts
    • 67,587 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:42 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:42 PM
    SMALL CLAIM? START A NEW THREAD PLEASE.

    Firstly, if you have no claim yet, you may wish to check how likely it is that 'your' PPC might try a small claim. You can check for yourself by Googling 'BMPA Insight' and the name of any parking firm...court numbers and advice tailored to each company.

    If you have a Letter Before Claim (LBC, sometimes referred to on forums as a LBCCC), you must respond robustly. Look at examples of replies from LoadsofChildren123, who is legally qualified:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72358831#post72358831

    and Daniel san's one from October 2017, which references the RECENT change in the pre-action Protocol:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73208118#post73208118

    DO RESPOND - if it later goes to a hearing then the Judge will see this correspondence. Seize the moment to point out how the firm have been unreasonable, and not complied with the new pre-action protocol for debt claims:

    https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/pdf/protocols/pre-action-protocol-for-debt-claims.pdf

    ...and ask for evidence, photos, a copy of the signage terms, etc. You do not have to write in legalese but don't write a weak 'appeal' type reply, NOT: ''I can't afford it/there was no loss/ this is what happened/excuses...!''

    If you get court claim, do not panic, we assist people & some 99% of cases here, win! YES, AROUND 99% SUCCESS.

    It's more difficult to show you a 'template suggestion' defence since ParkingEye v Beavis.

    ALMOST NO-ONE REPORTS A LOSS - YOU DON'T NEED TO WASTE MONEY ON A SOLICITOR OR ANY COMPANY - WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING, WE HAVE A HIGHER SUCCESS RATE THAN ANYWHERE, AND WE HELP FOR FREE.

    So, where to start dealing with your claim?

    DO NOT START SCRAWLING A HALF-BAKED 'DEFENCE' ON THE PAPERWORK. STOP!

    Does your claim form say 'Particulars of Claim to follow'? Civil Enforcement Ltd (CEL) do this and the advice is here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73343410#post73343410

    and

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5736717

    and

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5737389

    DO NOT DO THE AOS OR DEFENCE YET, IF THE CLAIM FORM SAYS PARTICULARS TO FOLLOW'!! WAIT FOR THEM.

    When the POC do eventually arrive, keep the envelope the POC arrived in and write to CEL and the court:

    Cel - asking them to explain the obvious backdating (if the POC are dated waaay before the envelope was franked), asking for the certificate of service. Require that CEL ask the court for relief from sanction for the POC being served late.

    Court - telling them when the actual service date was (enclosing a photocopy of the envelope/franking) and asking them to strike out the claim for late service. The CCBC might not, but they can't then say they are not aware of the date of service of the POC.

    Also, if they are DELUGED with these complaints, maybe someone at the CCBC might take notice.

    Meanwhile prepare a defence that ALSO mentions this late service of POC and make sure it is filed within 14 days of the POC actually arriving, as long as you've told the Court they arrived late, to cover yourself over this period.



    ONCE YOU HAVE THE PARTICULARS OF CLAIM, OR IF YOUR CLAIM FORM (MOST NON-CEL ONES) HAS WORDING IN THE 'PARTICULARS OF CLAIM' BOX ON THE LEFT OF THE CLAIM FRONT PAGE:

    Here is a guide to MCOL & how to acknowledge service (the first step), put together by a genuine PPC fighter:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvqu3bask5m0zir/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?dl=0


    Urgently start your own thread and show us your own tailored draft defence and we'll assist on a case by case basis.

    You do not get a CCJ even if you lose; as long as you pay within 30 days of judgment it's all sorted and nothing stays on the register (i.e. your credit record). Take heart from the act that almost all posters here, some 99%, WIN their defended case or see it discontinued with no hearing. I can recall just one lost in a year, and he then paid it, no CCJ, nothing bad.

    Gladstones & BW Legal robo-claims are so generic and ill-prepared that almost every poster wins. No 'risk' as long as you don't miss court deadlines, you may as well defend and fight. You will likely pay less than is being demanded even if you lose, all over with no effect on your credit rating - you will have cost THEM more.

    We hardly ever see any lost.

    Here are some cases won or in progress:

    A Civil Enforcement (CEL) defence, only suitable for that firm really (and point #10 is SPECIFIC so don't just copy blindly!):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5729157

    Here is one I wrote for a disabled person accused of a few minutes' overstay (BW Legal for VCS):

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl1e9kocnuwvjzc/Defence%20-%20VCS%20Claim.docx?dl=0

    It was in this case: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=109054

    DO NOT blindly copy that one but you can see how to set it out: numbered, double line-spaced in Times New Roman font 12.


    A defence about a car which was authorised by an employer to be unloading in a gated business complex:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71643736#post71643736

    A recent Gladstones defence, covering all the bases (a pre-POFA one about a parking event pre-Oct 2012):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71726521#post71726521

    A defence with clear headings and sections, where the photos don't even prove if the car was parked at all, out of a bay (UKCPM/Gladstones):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73052391#post73052391

    Here is a defence from 2017, another Gladstones farce of a claim, about the failure of a Pay by Phone app:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5659621

    and here's some wording to include in a defence for a Pay & Display car park with a small tariff allegedly unpaid:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72768984#post72768984

    Here is a defence written for a COMPANY DEFENDANT (cannot have been driving, POFA not followed by PPM):

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=98803 - post #80

    And one written re 'no permit' allegation from Pace Recovery, T/A Ace Security Services, Gladstones case:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5485681 - post #159




    If your case is about YOUR OWN SPACE or parking in a residents' car park as a legit visitor, please read THIS from the parking Prankster and also consider doing a counter-claim and/or Letter before Action to the site Managing Agent:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/residential-ticket-only-cancelled-after.html

    Here is a defence for an 'own space' residential site, by Johnersh who is legally qualified:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72977032#post72977032

    and one I wrote in a similar style with clear headings & sections, about an ''undesignated bay'' allegation in a block of flats:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=107768&st=80&p=1311428&#entry1 311428



    IMPORTANT - KNOW WHAT YOU MUST DO AND BY WHEN!

    Here is a walk-through the process from defence onwards (i.e. AFTER acknowledgement of service) by Loadsofchildren123:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72244727#post72244727

    Here's a summary from bargepole of what happens when, what you MUST do in time, re the paperwork & deadlines:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5546325

    Here is his advice about how to set out your defence, which bargepole recommends is best posted:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71228944#post71228944

    Irrelevant Defences and How To Avoid Them - what NOT to argue (DO NOT ARGUE ''NO LOSS' OR 'EXTORTIONATE CHARGE'):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5555458

    Do not think putting in the defence is your only job. Directions Questionnaire must be completed and returned to the claimant and the court, explained by IamEmanresu:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71763411#post71763411

    Once allocated to your local court, you will be given a clear date by which YOU MUST file the evidence ('exhibits') and any Witness Statement (i.e. yours, as bargepole says in the above link!). At witness statement stage (usually NOT LATER THAN 14 DAYS BEFORE YOUR HEARING!) don't forget to file the evidence you will rely upon, which usually should at least include:

    (a) a copy of the Beavis case sign as a comparison to show how awful the small print sign was in yours case
    (b) photos proving the scarce and illegible small print signs in your case, a view showing the lack of entrance signs, etc.
    (c) a video of how it looks from a car is good evidence! You can get a passenger to hold a camera or phone and record the lack of signs seen to the point of parking.
    (d) a copy of Schedule 4 of the POFA - there is a link to it in post #1 above. The Judge will NOT have this to hand & is unlikely to be familiar with it. This is only applicable if you are defending as keeper.
    (e) a copy of Henry Greenslade's wording from the POPLA Annual Report 2015 'Understanding Keeper Liability' if defending as keeper.
    (f) a copy of your lease or tenancy agreement if this is an 'own space' or 'block of flats' dispute where YOU have primacy of contract.
    (g) the case transcripts that support your argument (get them from the Parking Prankster's case law page), e.g. if arguing prohibitive 'forbidding parking' signs which offer no contract a driver can accept, you need PCM v Bull; if arguing that this is a residential space where the tenant/leaseholder has already been granted (impliedly or explicitly) the right to park or unload you need Jopson v Home Guard (a persuasive Appeal case heard by a Senior Circuit Judge) and PACE v Mr N, etc.
    (h) the IPC or BPA Code of practice, where it supports your case (e.g. the grace periods section 13 of the CoP in a BPA few minutes' 'overstay' claim).
    (i) a Pay & Display ticket if you have it in such a case, e.g. if arguing it was displayed. DO NOT ARGUE 'no loss'!

    If Gladstones write before the hearing, offering you a chance to 'settle' it usually means they know they will lose and are about to discontinue the case (in which case you are entitled to seek YOUR costs!). Here's a reply to Gladstones, 10 days before a hearing, by LOC123:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73000370#post73000370

    and if a firm does discontinue (e.g. CEL often do, rather than attend a hearing) then write & claim your costs!

    Here's how Bluetoffee1878 did it:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...88#post72966188

    and LoadsofChildren123 wrote a longer version that she links here, to reclaim costs after a discontinuance:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...88#post72799488


    Court reports - what it is like when you turn up and win!

    Claxtome won in late 2017, yet another Gladstones mess of a case:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73254200#post73254200

    Here's a 'court report' from 2017 from a winner on pepipoo (both forums have lots of such victories):

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=110606&st=40&gopid=1296619&#en try1296619

    Here is a thread showing a Witness Statement AND a summary of his day in court. AB Express won at their hearing v VCS:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5070951&page=4

    Here is a witness statement written from a registered keeper who was not driving and you can see it is paragraph-numbered throughout and it references numbered exhibits, creating an organised argument with illustrations/evidence:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=106959&st=40&p=1225247&#entry1 225247

    Here is a court report from MA61 about beating a Gladstones case (NB: we have 99% win rate here and on that day, 31.5.17, posters won 4 out of 4 cases):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5657908

    here is MA61's prep (the other 3 cases won that day were by 'stephthechosenone', Jack Basta and Jinxycat, so read them too):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5650032

    and here is a Witness Statement which saw off BW Legal, in a case about a tiny alleged 10p 'owed' because the machine swallowed it:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72186852#post72186852

    Here is a Witness Statement I wrote for a person post #5 (a case about a keypad error re the VRN, remember that if this is a 'close match' VRN, it is not proved to be the fault of the driver and could always be a dodgy key on the equipment):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5636211

    Here in post #9 is IamEmanresu from here (posting as emanresu on pepipoo) explaining witness statements and skeleton arguments:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=106957&st=0&p=1239147&#entry12 39147

    Here is a case where I separated the 2 documents into Witness Statement (the facts about letters received, etc.) and the skeleton (legal argument):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72047642#post72047642

    Skeleton Arguments explained:

    https://www.biicl.org/files/2223_skeleton_arguments_guide.pdf

    ''STRUCTURE AND CONTENT
    19. Heading !!!8211; !!!8220;Skeleton argument on behalf of......." Three vital words which are
    often omitted. It is rather important for the court to know whose skeleton it is,
    and it is not always immediately apparent from the text.''



    Here is a humdinger of a skeleton argument, with case law but all relevant, for a residential 'own space' case:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5591251&page=5

    Here is a very nicely set out (if long!) skeleton argument including case law, re a short stop (no offer of parking) in a BW Legal case where the registered keeper defendant was not the driver, and VCS did not use the POFA so 'no liability' and 'no contract':

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ojb2w37vx7hhegm/VCS-v-Quayle_Defendant-Skeleton-Argument%28rev%29.pdf?dl=0

    Here is a costs schedule, you take this to the hearing and claim your costs for lost wages/leave, your travel, parking(!) etc. if you win:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72079752#post72079752

    You CAN claim loss of leave but some Judges do not know this, so have this up your sleeve in your notes in your 'costs schedule': ''27.14.2(e) a sum not exceeding the amount specified in Practice Direction 27 for any loss of earnings or loss of leave by a party or witness due to attending a hearing or to staying away from home for the purposes of attending a hearing''

    If you have such a strong case that the Claim was VEXATIOUS, unreasonable and without merit, see this about claiming punitive costs, written by legally-qualified LoadsofChildren123:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72639343#post72639343

    and

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73593864#post73593864



    HAVE YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT A CCJ (JUDGMENT FOR CLAIMANT) AND NEED IT SET ASIDE?

    Here's how - DO NOT ring the parking firm up...and do not just pay them:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5581374

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585047

    And read this thread:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5619965

    ...which includes the OP's statement in support of his/her set aside, and an outcome which included the £255 being refunded. They were in and out in 5 minutes and he/she just asked for the £255 to be reimbursed by the non-attending claimant (quite often they don't attend).

    And the Judge agreed, all over, claim struck out entirely!

    IamEmanresu's summary of your choices:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71776504#post71776504

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72001618#post72001618

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72212851#post72212851



    THINK YOU HAVE GROUNDS TO COUNTER-SUE FOR DATA MISUSE UNDER THE DPA? RESEARCH IT CAREFULLY FIRST.

    READ TIMOTHEA'S THREAD ABOUT DPA BREACH:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585388

    Some cases lend themselves to a valid counter-claim. Be realistic and informed and get your priorities right and your evidence first. If you still wish to issue a claim for data misuse:

    1. Think about who best to claim against. On MCOL you can name up to two defendants = so, the parking firm and the landowner/agent/retailer who contracted them would be the best bet in many cases.

    2. Research how to do this properly, it is not for the faint-hearted. You must follow the CPR and issue all parties with a LBCCC first, so read up on how to issue small claims and if in doubt, start a new thread before rushing into it and wasting your court fee.

    3. Research the Data Protection Principles. Quote them in your LBCCC, then refer to them in your Particulars of Claim. You do not have to show loss (see Timothea's thread) but you do need to show that the DPA has been breached and that compensation is the remedy - quoting the case law that supports it - and stating how the claimant has suffered distress. Then the Witness Statement later, MUST also explain (in detail) the distress caused by the harassment and misuse of data, as well as the facts of what was received when and what evidence you are relying on (usual stuff, photos of unclear/small font signs; a copy of any lease/tenancy agreement for ''own space'' residential cases, to show your primacy of contract and your unfettered right, already granted, to park).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 21-12-2017 at 1:40 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 14, 7:43 PM
    • 53,902 Posts
    • 67,587 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:43 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:43 PM
    SECOND STAGE APPEAL - POPLA OR IAS



    POPLA IS OFFERED BY BPA AOS FIRMS

    DO NOT APPEAL SAYING WHO WAS DRIVING, NEITHER AT FIRST APPEAL STAGE NOR AT POPLA.

    POPLA Appeals are submitted here (New POPLA system Sept 2015; it's horrible)!

    http://www.popla.co.uk/

    but don't feel you have to answer their questions, you should write a detailed appeal and attach it as a PDF along with photos (use the parking firm's own photo of the sign if the words are illegible and the £100 (or whatever) charge is not in LARGE letters. Certainly don't blow it by trying to answer 'what happened' just because POPLA questions prompt you to answer! You can appeal as keeper and raise the point (among others) that the NTK is not compliant with the POFA 2012 statutory wording.

    To find a relevant POPLA appeal written recently, always search the forum well, choosing good keywords. So if yours is an APCOA PCN at an Airport, search the forum for the words 'APCOA POPLA Airport' and you will find a good one like this, in seconds, that you can copy and adapt (these are deliberately long, to make a PPC give up):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71489034#post71489034

    And in the same vein, to find a UKPC POPLA appeal where no NTK was ever served to the keeper, a search finds this:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71383972#post71383972


    ParkingEye (make sure you search it as ONE word as shown) can be best handled by searching for the relevant place as a keyword, so 'ParkingEye POPLA Aire Street' or 'ParkingEye Tower Road POPLA' or 'ParkingEye POPLA Hospital' would be good choices of keywords to find very recent examples.

    ALWAYS look at the wording of any PCN from ParkingEye to see if it is a 'POFA/keeper liability after 29 days' one or not. There are two versions - look on the BACK of your PCN! As long as you have not said who was driving in the first appeal, if you are lucky enough to have one like the ''golden ticket'' (nothing about POFA 2012 on the back) type of PCN discussed here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5684787

    This shows a ''Golden Ticket'' (our phrase only!) back page (note no paragraph about the POFA 212):

    http://i.imgur.com/ubQAZ8p.jpg

    ...then you *will* win your appeal using the template POPLA point about 'no keeper liability' from a PE non-POFA type PCN, followed by the template point about the appellant not being shown to be the individual liable (then unclear signs, landowner authority, and if applicable, no grace periods allowed, etc.,).

    This person (below) was not lucky enough to have the 'non-POFA' easily-winning version PE PCN but still won with this PE POPLA appeal so it is certainly possible and PE do not like the very long 'throw the kitchen sink at it' approach to POPLA appeals and often give up:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71563041#post71563041

    I have only shown a few links as examples of POPLA appeals because they change and evolve. Searching will find the most recent similar example; do not use one older than 2017. Do not look at old ones about 'no GPEOL' or no loss because that's not going to win.

    Easier than it sounds because we now have a number of POPLA appeal points covering the essential areas for appeal. They are in 'near template' state, but will need to be checked first against the circumstances of your parking event.

    These are long on detail and when put together form a formidable block of text, deliberately so to scare off some PPCs who cannot be bothered to contest (fairly common).

    Signage (I deliberately go to town in this section, don't cut it down!):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71285691&postcount=2341

    - The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287626&postcount=2342

    Landowner Authority

    No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287628&postcount=2343

    No Keeper Liability (windscreen ticket, no follow on NtK)

    Example for cases where the PPC issued only a windscreen PCN but did not follow it with a NTK:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287643&postcount=2345

    Permit car parks (residential 'own space' appeals, or industrial/employer car parks where the car was permitted):

    And two appeal points to use together (as well as some of the above, of course) for PERMIT car parks where you were loading/unloading or permitted to be there:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71339517&postcount=2361

    You can copy them verbatim and put them together and show us, to check nothing is missed. Like these two posters did, one is v Civil Enforcement and one v ParkingEye:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5698328

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5538581

    A ParkingEye appeal is 100% winnable with that style PCN as long as you do NOT shoot yourself in the foot first by saying who was driving.

    Here are two POPLA appeals I wrote (specific to a ParkingEye car park/machine issue and PCN):

    Duncan Nimock's case:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/lukk13xep4s6ckz/Appeal%20v%20ParkingEye%20-%20POPLA%20November%202016.docx?dl=0

    marganne's case:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/rzau2e68ddbniow/ParkingEye%20Aire%20St%20POPLA%20appeal.docx?dl=0


    These then get saved as PDFs and uploaded to POPLA under OTHER (ONLY) - do not think you only have 2000 characters in some box on the POPLA wepage!

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/new-popla-process.html


    ****************************

    AFTER SUBMITTING YOUR POPLA APPEAL:

    If the PPC contests the POPLA appeal, they will put on the Portal (and maybe also send to you) their POPLA evidence pack. It is NOT from POPLA not the decision!

    This is your chance to comment on the crappy evidence from the scumbags. YOU MUST COMMENT.


    How can I comment on the evidence sent to POPLA, they've written a lot and shown lots of pictures of signs?!

    Look through the evidence and find things to rebut - such as the signage being unclear, illegible, sparse/nothing to show how close the car was to a sign. Or the witness statement/contract being heavily redacted, out of date, not signed by the landowner, or even just that it shows no expiry date (POPLA seem to like that).

    Your comments are to rebut the operator's case, blow by blow (but make it CONCISE) without naming the driver. Do not re-write your appeal or call it 'an appeal' or POPLA will not read it.

    Examples of evidence 'comments' here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69778312#post69778312

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69835948#post69835948


    What will likely happen in the end, re my POPLA appeal?

    Read the 'POPLA Decisions' sticky thread now; read it from the LAST post backwards, for recent wins. POPLA and the importance of rebutting the evidence in a final email to POPLA, is discussed here in the second half of this post:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=68548048&highlight=#post68548048

    Do you have to pay of you lose at POPLA? No.



    ************************************************** ****************************



    The 'IAS' offered by IPC companies is considered far worse than POPLA.

    It is named and shamed on forum posts regularly as a 'kangaroo court' because even a strong appeal loses in almost every case. The IAS favours the parking firms and expects a mountain of evidence from the appellant. Do not use mitigating circumstances.

    HO87 explains the problems with the IAS anonymous and apparently unaccountable appeals system here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=67067144#post67067144

    and this is typical thread where we've discussed the issue; all agree it appears to be a 'kangaroo court':

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5149137

    Here I explain my reasons why I don't recommend trying the appeal at IAS stage, except in very rare cases where you have a slam-dunk winning point:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=68548048&highlight=#post68548048

    However, if it's a lease/hire car and a NTK went to the hire firm first, you CAN potentially win at IAS by cribbing from this IAS win wording:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=67815901#post67815901

    DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT PAY £15 FOR THE 'BINDING' IAS VERSION!

    Please don't start a thread asking if you should appeal to the IAS unless you have very rare circumstances that might make yours worth a try. The answer is NO, do not try IAS at all.

    Here Umkomaas explains your options:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69418259&highlight=#post69418259


    As always, DO NOT OVERLOOK THE POWER OF A COMPLAINT TO RETAILER/LANDOWNER ABOUT THESE SCUM FIRMS:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4766249

    SO GET COMPLAINING, EVEN IF THE PCN WAS FROM MONTHS BEFORE.


    What will happen if I lose at POPLA or IAS?

    Nothing.

    It is not a reason to pay, even though the decision will tell you to! Discussed here and in other threads you can find by searching this forum for 'lost IAS' or similar keywords:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5334100

    What happens would be:

    - you will most likely (unless it's a very litigious PPC) just get a series of hysterical 'pay up or else' debt collector letters, or maybe letters from the PPC themselves - see separate post about ignoring them, below. No need to panic.

    or

    - you might have to defend this if the PPC tries a small claim, and they might be buoyed by an IAS 'win' under their belt to brandish. If that happens, see post #2 above about beating a claim!

    Disputes have been raised with the DVLA and the CTSI regarding the IAS, 'kangaroo court' so it is perfectly legitimate to say that as a consumer you do not wish to use the IAS until the dispute is resolved and suggest an alternative ADR.

    So you could write like this poster has done - but don't expect it to stop the letter chain from daft debt collector teenagers in a call centre, who need to get a real job:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69450157&highlight=#post69450157



    What will happen if I do not bother with the IAS stage?

    Same as the advice for those who lose. Don't pay.

    Ignore debt collector letters as per post #4 of this advice thread - except to tell them in writing (keep proof of posting/emailing) if you move house, to make sure you never miss court papers a couple of years later.

    Come back and read post #2 if you get a small claim, which defendants coached here win 99% of the time.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-11-2017 at 8:32 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 14, 7:44 PM
    • 53,902 Posts
    • 67,587 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:44 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Jan 14, 7:44 PM
    'IGNORE THE DEBT COLLECTORS' STAGE

    DO NOT PANIC!




    CAN'T SAY IT ENOUGH, THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR TALKING AD INFINITUM ABOUT DEBT COLLECTOR LETTER CHAINS SO PLEASE SPARE US!!!!!!! DO NOT START A NEW THREAD ABOUT DEBT COLLECTOR TEDIUM, PLEASE, JUST SEARCH AND READ WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN SAID.


    READ THIS CLICKY LINK (YES THE BLUE BIT, CLICK ON IT!) AND DO NOT, PLEASE DON'T, START A NEW THREAD ABOUT ROSSENDALES or DEBT RECOVERY PLUS OR ZZPS OR WRIGHT HASSALL!



    Debt Collectors letters or threats of court? Thinking you may be too late to appeal?

    You may get debt collector letters, e.g. 'Debt Recovery Plus' (also using trading names of 'PCS' and 'Zenith') or you might have 'ZZPS' or even solicitor letter heading from 'Gladstones' or 'Wright Hassall' which actually asks for payment to a debt collector = a debt collector letter then!


    THESE ARE NOT BAILIFFS, THEY CANNOT SEND THE BOYS ROUND! THIS IS JUST A LETTER-CHAIN YOU GET IF YOU HAVE NOT APPEALED.
    See this linked explanatory video which will help you to see it for what it is and say 'big deal' about the letters:
    LINK: Is a debt collector the same as a bailiff? - StepChange...


    All the blue wording below includes a link for you to click about the stupid debt collectors so click on the name:

    If you have letters from any debt collector such as Debt Recovery Plus or Zenith and are on the face of it, too late to 'appeal', then (if in England/Wales) either ignore them or robustly respond.

    To be clear - I recommend ignoring debt collectors, as the response leads nowhere - certainly NEVER ring them!

    As well as the links shown (click on the blue words), here's a strong response to send if the PPC says you are 'too late' and it's now with a debt collector:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=82895&st=20&p=904431&#entry904 431

    ...and here's a case (link below) where a strong response to ParkingEye when they were nearly at court stage, pulled it back to a POPLA appeal stage even though ParkingEye had already stated (wrongly) that it was 'too late' for POPLA. It is NOT too late for POPLA, insist on it and they can't easily take it to court. You can make their position very difficult - and maybe a POPLA code and rejection letter will follow as it did here. months after the parking event:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=63990978#post63990978


    IF YOU REALLY WANT TO WASTE HOURS ON IT THEN PLEASE NO NEW THREAD, JUST SEARCH THE PARKING FORUM FOR THEIR NAME AND MAKE A CUPPA AND READ ALL ABOUT THEIR SILLY LETTER CHAINS, AND EITHER SEND ONE ROBUST REPLY OR TOTALLY IGNORE THEM.

    I recommend the second option.

    THAT'S ALL.


    KEEP ALL THE LETTERS IN CASE IT BECOMES HARASSMENT, OR IN CASE THE PPC EVER TRY A SMALL CLAIM.


    HTH
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 21-09-2017 at 9:49 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Nov 16, 5:00 PM
    • 53,902 Posts
    • 67,587 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 7th Nov 16, 5:00 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Nov 16, 5:00 PM
    COMPLAINTS (AND COMMON ACRONYMS EXPLAINED):


    Always complain to the landowner/retailer very quickly and assertively:


    Successful complaints about private parking tickets - how to get them cancelled!

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4766249 Look how easy it can be to get these cancelled by a retailer/hotel/landowner!

    Most fake PCNs can be cancelled if it is a retailer car park, simply by COMPLAINING! If you go for the complaint assertively and quickly you won't even have to bother with any of the above appeals/POPLA stuff!

    Look at the linked thread above - I have given typical contact emails in post #3 - for stores, and tips about who to moan at if it's not a shop on site. Also there's a template 'rant' of a complaint letter to give you the flavour of how angry a customer is entitled to be about this utter harassment, particularly if your only error was taking too long shopping!

    Retail Park with lots of stores? Google it and find the management or landowner contact details.


    ************************************************** **************************************

    Complaining about an AOS member (BPA or IPC member, anywhere in the UK):

    Contact details for complaints to the BPA or IPC (as applicable to your PPC) and the DVLA below.

    These are useful resources to influence getting parking charges cancelled, such as when an AOS member has not followed POFA 2012 but is still alleging the keeper is 'liable' or if their signage is missing or if they refuse to give you a POPLA/IAS code, or have clearly breached their applicable Code of Practice:


    DVLA:
    Complain every time to the DVLA if your PPC are faffing around not sending you a POPLA or IAS code even if you appealed in time, or have breached the Code of Practice.

    Point out that any breach of the Code of Practice the PPC is signed up to, breaches the KADOE contract to get DVLA data. State that the matter has been escalated to the CCR team because you have no confidence in the data release team to take such a complaint seriously as it's in the public domain that they have dismissed these issues far too many times recently without so much as even supplying a copy of the DVLA complaints procedure leaflet. State that if your complaint is not resolved properly your intention would be to involve your MP and refer the issue to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=65678397&highlight=#post65678397

    email - ccrt@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    Customer Complaint Resolution Team
    D16W
    DVLA
    Swansea
    SA6 7JL




    BPA:

    aos@britishparking.co.uk
    Steve Clark
    Head of Operational Services
    British Parking Association
    Stuart House
    41-43 Perrymount Road
    Haywards Heath
    West Sussex
    RH16 3BN


    And if your PPC is with the IPC and appears to have breached their Code of Practice, the IPC web-site has the following info about complaints:

    Compliance Monitoring
    !!!65279; !!!65279;The IPC is not able to consider complaints about members unless it is regarding an alleged instance of non-compliance of the Code. Similarly, the IPC are not able to intefere with decisions of Parking Operators in relation to the validity of charges that they issue... If you need to refer a complaint to us then please contact us.

    !!!8203;
    IPC email:
    contact@theIPC.info



    ************************************************** ***********************


    Some forum acronyms explained (REMEMBER THAT SOME OF THESE WILL NOT MEAN ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THE FORUM)


    AOS = Approved Operator Scheme of an Accredited Trade Association such as the BPA (or the new one, the IPC). Only AOS members can get DVLA data.

    BMPA = British Motorists' Protection Association, a brilliant charity. Loads of info, links & free informed advice.

    BPA = British Parking Association, merely a Trade Body for its member PPCs (not a regulator & not on your side, however you can use them to complain).

    IAS = a 2nd stage 'SO CALLED independent' appeal service, applicable in England/Wales for IPC AOS members only. Pointless.

    IPC = International Parking Community - merely a Trade Body for its member PPCs (not a regulator & not on your side).

    LBCCC/LBC/LBA = Letter Before County Court Claim/Letter Before Claim/Letter Before Action. DO NOT IGNORE IT. How to respond.

    MCOL = Money Claim Online - Google it!

    NTH = Notice To Hirer (if you are the hirer/lessee, e.g. hired or company cars). Easy to win!

    NTK = Notice to Keeper which should be the first letter sent to the registered keeper. See below for how to appeal if in England/Wales.

    POC = Particulars of Claim (the short paragraph on the left middle of a claim form, with very sparse facts).

    PPC = our forum shorthand only, for 'private parking company'.

    POFA 2012 = Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (specifically Schedule 4 as linked below). England/Wales ONLY.

    POPLA = Parking on Private Land Appeals - a 2nd stage 'independent' appeal service, applicable in England/Wales and for BPA AOS members only. Sometimes found to be awful in 2016 so you do have to cover all bases first time, in your POPLA appeal.

    WS = Witness Statement. See post #2. If you have a claim, you must file a Witness Statement (and your evidence and exhibits) before the hearing, as well as the initial defence statement.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-02-2018 at 6:43 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Crabman
    • By Crabman 13th Oct 17, 9:03 PM
    • 9,639 Posts
    • 7,040 Thanks
    Crabman
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 17, 9:03 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 17, 9:03 PM
    This thread is for general information only.

    Please do not post questions about your parking tickets in this thread.


    For personalised help and guidance from our wonderful forum regulars (for free ) please start your own thread by clicking on this blue button:



    Any posts made here will be archived to this thread.
    Last edited by Crabman; 13-10-2017 at 9:06 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Savings & Investments, ISAs & Tax-free Savings, Public Transport & Cycling, Motoring and Parking Fines, Tickets & Parking Boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Board Guides are not moderators & don't read every post. If you spot a contentious or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Jan 18, 2:08 PM
    • 16,619 Posts
    • 25,965 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 22nd Jan 18, 2:08 PM
    • #7
    • 22nd Jan 18, 2:08 PM
    Hi There, I am thinking to putting together a youtube video helping people with the process of fighting these private parking companies. I have recently won against them but feel most people have no idea what to do.
    I wondered if you thought this was a good idea? Please PM me if you can!
    Thank you
    Originally posted by empacher
    This would be so much better if it was contained in a separate thread of its own. Would you please start a new thread where I!!!8217;m sure you!!!8217;ll generate some helpful replies.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Robsbo
    • By Robsbo 22nd Jan 18, 9:18 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Robsbo
    • #8
    • 22nd Jan 18, 9:18 PM
    • #8
    • 22nd Jan 18, 9:18 PM
    Sorry if this situation has already been queried but I have a parking fine originally from Smart Parking at my NHS GP car park. As I!!!8217;ve moved and forgot to update my reg address with DVLA the fine was posted to my old address and the new occupiers returned it to sender. It was then passed to DRP (Debt Recovery Plus Ltd) and they tracked me down at my new address. When I called them they said it was too late to appeal and I now had to pay. Since that conversation, I!!!8217;ve had another letter advising the PCN has been correctly and legitimately issues and I must pay before 29th Jan or they will recommend their client (Smart Parking) that court action be taken to recover the debt! Any advice on what I can do would be greatly appreciated! Thanks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Jan 18, 9:26 PM
    • 5,612 Posts
    • 4,291 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #9
    • 22nd Jan 18, 9:26 PM
    • #9
    • 22nd Jan 18, 9:26 PM
    Robsbo, go back and read post #6 on this thread.
    .
    • sp3211
    • By sp3211 9th Feb 18, 6:44 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    sp3211
    UK CPM scam ticket arrived - timings??
    Hi, it's not clear in the thread about the timings!

    "If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to!) the a postal PCN must arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket."

    In my case
    • there was no windscreen ticket
    • letter arrived through my door 6 days after "Notice Issue Date" but the issue date was 11 days after alleged "Unauthorised Parking".
    • 17 days elapsed in total

    Does the 14 day rule apply from the alleged unauthorised parking (ridiculous!!) or from the Notice issue date??

    Car was authorised by way of car park pass. Photo included in letter does not show pass displayed, I'm not even sure the photo facing the front is my vehicle as the registration plate is not in the frame!
    Last edited by sp3211; 09-02-2018 at 6:46 AM.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 9th Feb 18, 7:58 AM
    • 2,608 Posts
    • 3,195 Thanks
    waamo
    This thread is for general information only.

    Please do not post questions about your parking tickets in this thread.


    For personalised help and guidance from our wonderful forum regulars (for free ) please start your own thread by clicking on this blue button:



    Any posts made here will be archived to this thread.
    Originally posted by Crabman
    You missed this post.
    This space for hire.
    • Archae0
    • By Archae0 14th Feb 18, 9:51 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Archae0
    This is typical of our country, just received the below email from All Parking Services UK. These company's are making a fortune extorting money from motorists.

    Ref: Car Parking Management


    Dear Sir / Madam

    Are you having problems with people abusing your parking facilities ?
    Would you also like to receive commission from the people that are abusing your parking?
    Would you also like not to have to pay for this service?
    If so we can help.
    All Parking Serviceís UK Ltd is a National Car Park Management Company that provides a friendly bespoke ethical car parking management solution and service.
    Our combined knowledge of over 23 years in the parking industry and our dedication in solving parking problems can only benefit our customers.
    Where most car parking companies keep all the monies they collect at APS we feel that our clients should also benefit from parking abusers, thatís why we offer commission on all notices that pay, and not limited just to the first 14 days of issue.
    All Parking Services UK Ltd are members of the British Parking Associations AOS Scheme.
    We offer up to £40.00 commission for all paid tickets, T&s Cís Apply
    If we can be of any service to you please contact us at all parking services uk ltd. com or call us on 0333 577 6900, we would welcome the opportunity to earn your trust and deliver you the best service in the industry.

    Kind Regards
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th Feb 18, 9:58 AM
    • 2,608 Posts
    • 3,195 Thanks
    waamo
    Have you read the post above yours?
    This space for hire.
    • vman11121314
    • By vman11121314 14th Feb 18, 3:40 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    vman11121314
    what is the outcome for your PCN? Did you pay or succeeded?
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th Feb 18, 3:42 PM
    • 2,608 Posts
    • 3,195 Thanks
    waamo
    This thread is for general information only.

    Please do not post questions about your parking tickets in this thread.


    For personalised help and guidance from our wonderful forum regulars (for free ) please start your own thread by clicking on this blue button:



    Any posts made here will be archived to this thread.
    Originally posted by Crabman
    Can people not see this?
    This space for hire.
    • vman11121314
    • By vman11121314 14th Feb 18, 3:43 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    vman11121314
    Hi, it's not clear in the thread about the timings!

    "If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to!) the a postal PCN must arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket."

    In my case
    • there was no windscreen ticket
    • letter arrived through my door 6 days after "Notice Issue Date" but the issue date was 11 days after alleged "Unauthorised Parking".
    • 17 days elapsed in total

    Does the 14 day rule apply from the alleged unauthorised parking (ridiculous!!) or from the Notice issue date??

    Car was authorised by way of car park pass. Photo included in letter does not show pass displayed, I'm not even sure the photo facing the front is my vehicle as the registration plate is not in the frame!
    Originally posted by sp3211
    what is the outcome for your PCN? Did you pay or succeeded?
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th Feb 18, 3:45 PM
    • 2,608 Posts
    • 3,195 Thanks
    waamo
    what is the outcome for your PCN? Did you pay or succeeded?
    Originally posted by vman11121314
    Have you read the previous posts?

    I've reported the posts asking for them to be split from this thread but I don't think it gets done unless a few more people ask please.
    Last edited by waamo; 14-02-2018 at 6:31 PM.
    This space for hire.
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 14th Feb 18, 6:21 PM
    • 8,121 Posts
    • 8,350 Thanks
    pogofish
    what is the outcome for your PCN? Did you pay or succeeded?
    Originally posted by vman11121314
    Stop hijacking threads - RIGHT NOW!
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