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  • FIRST POST
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Nov 13, 4:35 PM
    • 44,276Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Newbies! Need help with a private parking ticket? Read this before posting!!
    • #1
    • 10th Nov 13, 4:35 PM
    Newbies! Need help with a private parking ticket? Read this before posting!! 10th Nov 13 at 4:35 PM
    WELCOME!

    START YOUR OWN NEW THREAD IF YOU FEEL YOU STILL NEED TO ASK FOR ADVICE AFTER READING THE RELEVANT POSTS HERE BUT DON'T TRY TO SKIM-READ THIS ON A PHONE, PLEASE!

    THIS THREAD TELLS YOU HOW TO COMPLAIN & APPEAL.

    Forget the 14 day 'discount' if you wish to appeal; that bribe is not for you. And we would say never pay a private parking charge - they are never justified and the entire industry is rotten, so fight back.



    If you are not the registered keeper - e.g. a hire/company/lease car - see asterisk below and appeal EARLY. *

    If you stay in Scotland or NI please do complain to the retailer but do NOT appeal, DO NOT GIVE AWAY WHO WAS DRIVING (see lower section about Scotland/NI specifically).

    If you have SMALL CLAIM papers, DO NOT IGNORE OR YOU LOSE BY DEFAULT. See post #2 about how to defend.



    ALL CASES - COMPLAIN FIRST, ESPECIALLY OVER A RETAIL OR HOSPITAL CAR PARK:

    Always complain to the Retailer very quickly and assertively, WITH A RECEIPT IF POSSIBLE:

    Successful complaints about private parking tickets - how to get them cancelled! <<< CLICK

    From the successes there, see how easy it can be to get these cancelled by a retailer/hotel/landowner.




    Appealing a private PCN (England & Wales ONLY)

    Windscreen ticket from a BPA member? = STOP - wait and research before appealing!!

    If it was a windscreen 'PCN' (not postal) then wait 3 weeks and in that time, you MUST check the firm is an AOS member with the BPA or IPC (GOOGLE IT). DO NOT APPEAL AT ALL, IF THEY ARE NOT! Victims who rush to appeal could be handing a scam artist their details on a plate and - almost as bad - pointlessly throwing away appeal grounds open to the keeper. For example, don't appeal to tickets from 'ANPR Ltd' who are not members of any Trade Body and cannot get your name and address unless you are daft enough to tell them!


    In the case of CURRENT BRITISH PARKING ASSOCIATION (BPA) AOS MEMBERS ONLY, appeal online or by email at around day 26 after a windscreen PCN but as the KEEPER, not driver, using the BPA member version (blue writing) template below.

    Q:- Why wait till day 26 before appealing a BPA member PCN on the windscreen?

    A:- To engage them in the appeals process at a time when they should also be posting a Notice to Keeper. Many PPCs in the BPA forget the NTK when replying to an appeal and if you appeal as 'keeper' then the very fact a PPC then forgets to send you a NTK by day 56, gives you a winning point at POPLA stage. Don't forget this: if you appeal on day 25 or 26 after a windscreen PCN, make sure you take note of whether any postal NTK is ever received. You must include 'no keeper liability' at POPLA stage if you do NOT receive a NTK at all in that time. A rejection letter is not a 'NTK'.



    BUT IPC members are different:

    In the case of CURRENT IPC AOS MEMBERS ONLY, we now advise to WAIT a month or so, for a Notice to Keeper to arrive and then challenge once online or by email, as the KEEPER, not driver, using the template appeal for IPC members, as shown below.

    Q: Why wait for the 'NTK' to arrive in the post a month later, after finding an IPC member windscreen PCN?

    A: Because there has been shown to be no appeal worth trying really, you will get a rejection anyway, so you may as well leave it and see if they issue a NTK and let them apply to the DVLA (unless yours is a company or lease car of course, in which case you MUST appeal at windscreen PCN stage as stated at the end of this thread). Also, letting an IPC member get the data from the DVLA places obligations upon the PPC in the processing of that data which can have data protection implications for them if they misuse it (for example if they try to 'sell' the parking charge to a third party like MIL Collections). If the firm is litigious, the fact the data originated under DVLA rules (under the KADOE) can be useful in your defence (see post #2 about Small Claims).



    Postal PCN from a BPA or IPC member ? (i.e. with no mention of any windscreen ticket at all):

    A postal PCN or NTK might be headed up 'Notice to Keeper' or 'Reminder' or 'Charge Notice' or it may even be a random letter from a debt collector - it is still your Notice to Keeper, in effect, if it is the first letter to arrive.

    If you are sure that the ANPR has shown TWO visits to the car park as if they are one, you are not going mad! This is known by us on the forum as a 'double dip' visit, a known fault of this technology which shows the first in, last out photos by default. You can not only win your appeal (certainly) but you can sue the parking firm and the landowner/retailer who contracted them, and why not try to claim, say, £750 compensation if you are so minded (no guarantee but case law supports you as your data has been misused).

    Read this thread of links all about 'double dips' if you have fallen victim to this scam:

    Carthesis' 'double dip' ANPR cases thread

    And this one (thanks to Timothea) about possibly making a claim for compensation under the DPA for data misuse in certain circumstances:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585388


    ************************************************** ******


    THE FIRST APPEAL TO THE PPC

    What's the point of appealing and what happens next?

    - if this is a BPA member parking firm, the point is to get a POPLA code if you do not get it cancelled. We will happily check over a draft POPLA appeal you put together from post #3 of this thread, where there are template POPLA appeal points already written.

    - this is why not to name the driver (thanks to The Slithy Tove for this explanation):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69906180#post69906180



    ************************************************** *****************************************


    Template appeal for IPC members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:


    - if this is an IPC member parking firm, see post #3, there is no POPLA for you, so consumers do not get a fair appeal. Instead, just send this letter or a version of it, writing ONLY as the registered keeper, with their name and address (thanks to salmosalaris for the basis of this letter):


    Dear {name of IPC member - only IPC members for this version!!!}

    Re PCN number:

    I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your purported 'parking charge'. The driver will not be identified. I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company and are the the landowner?
    2. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    3. Please provide photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract with the driver.
    4. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.
    5. Please provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and/or systems & machines.

    Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs, which would be a thinly-veiled attempt at 'double recovery'. I will not respond to debt collectors and to involve a third party would be a failure to mitigate your costs as well as deliberate and knowing misuse of my data.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the IPC Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, as seems likely based on my research) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me. I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle.

    I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,



    THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER GOES HERE. THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.

    NO NEED TO USE YOUR REAL SIGNATURE - BUT DON'T POST UNLESS YOU HAVE TO - ALWAYS USE THE ONLINE APPEAL PAGE BECAUSE THE APPEAL CANNOT GET LOST AND YOU CAN KEEP A SCREEN PRINT. [/FONT]USE ANY EMAIL APPEAL OPTION IF FIRMS OFFER IT.


    You can add to the template above, 'in order to resolve the dispute I attach copies of...': the driver's receipts/bank transactions (or Hospital Appointment/Hotel booking, etc.) that day as 'they' were a genuine customer/patient, etc.



    ************************************************** *****************************************


    Template appeal for BPA members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:




    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,


    THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER GOES HERE. THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.

    NO NEED TO USE YOUR REAL SIGNATURE - BUT DON'T POST UNLESS YOU HAVE TO - ALWAYS USE THE ONLINE APPEAL PAGE BECAUSE THE APPEAL CANNOT GET LOST AND YOU CAN KEEP A SCREEN PRINT.
    USE ANY EMAIL APPEAL OPTION IF FIRMS OFFER IT.


    You can add to the template above, 'in order to resolve the dispute I attach copies of...': the driver's receipts/bank transactions (or Hospital Appointment/Hotel booking, etc.) that day as 'they' were a genuine customer/patient, etc.



    ************************************************** ****************************************


    Want to dig deeper? Check the compliance of your Notice to Keeper, if the PPC is citing 'keeper liability' under the POFA. Here's a link to Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 which applies in England/Wales only (bear in mind not all tickets or NTKs comply with this Schedule, so check yours, look for the words shown in paragraph 8 if it's a windscreen ticket followed by a NTK, or the words in paragraph 9 if it's a postal PCN):

    [/FONT]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

    If the NTK arrives provably late, this does not make the PCN 'void' but it means there is 'no keeper liability' possible.

    If they are a firm which alleges 'keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 (which they don't have to) the a postal PCN has to arrive by day 14 if there was no windscreen ticket, and between day 29 and day 57 if there was a windscreen ticket. Some firms (e.g. Civil Enforcement, Highview, CP Plus, Smart Parking and some small PPCs) don't even bother with POFA 2012 wording so the keeper is not liable if you point that out to POPLA. So you can see why the keeper is the person identified in your appeal.



    ************************************************** ********************************************


    SECOND STAGE APPEAL = POPLA (BPA firms only)


    See separate post #3 below for how to appeal to POPLA and why NOT to appeal to the IAS (IPC firms version) in almost any case.




    DEBT COLLECTOR STAGE - SEE POST #4 BELOW

    JUST SEARCH THIS FORUM! So, for example if you have a Debt Recovery Plus letter talking about 'my findings' then search this forum for 'Recovery findings' as your keywords.

    PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, DO NOT START A NEW THREAD ABOUT DEBT RECOVERY LETTERS. READ OTHER THREADS.



    *******************************************

    If in Scotland/NI:

    Apart from (of course!!)
    complaining to the landowner/retailer you should IGNORE your fake PCN unless you are not the registered keeper and that is a company (hire car or leased/company vehicle).*

    You are safe to ignore because there is no worthwhile appeals process - do not believe what the fake PCN says! This Watchdog video still applies in Scotland and NI because a PPC has to know who was driving (unlike in England/Wales now):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAIcdi9niHA

    WHEN IGNORING IN SCOTLAND/NI, KEEP ALL LETTERS. DO NOT THROW THEM AWAY.

    ***************************


    * COMPANY, LEASE OR HIRE CARS ANYWHERE IN THE UK

    In the case of a company car or hire car, if you get a windscreen ticket you MUST appeal before day 28 (well before day 21 when it's an IPC firm which only 'offers' 21 days to appeal - check the PCN). This is in order to hook the PPC in your direction, before they get a chance to get the keeper's details from the DVLA.

    You should also warn the owner/keeper (Fleet Manager) not to pay if they do get a letter about it because they have no business to get involved in a fake PCN you have already appealed as driver, and you won't reimburse them if they are daft enough to pay it.

    If the hire/lease co gets a postal PCN and names you as the driver/hirer, that is a good thing as it removes them from the loop entirely and then you can follow the above advice as appropriate to your case - but check and see if they have charged an admin fee. Challenge that admin fee with the Fleet Manager, Hire firm or your HR Manager, if your car use t&cs do not support this deduction for a mere invoice (as opposed to a fine/penalty).

    Europcar are one firm which will refund the admin fee if you win your appeal.

    Here are two examples of a successful first appeal (but one that gets a POPLA code is good too - the appeal can then be winnable - so don't expect early cancellation, this is rare). These examples relate to a situation where the PPC has (very commonly indeed) failed to send the required 'documents' to the hirer with the postal Notice, by day 21 after the date they were informed of the hirer's details:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69859059#post69859059

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69767583#post69767583


    Thanks to Edna Basher for the template appeal to use where it's a Hire/company/lease car and a postal Notice has been sent after the hirer/lessee/company car user has been named. Remember, that does not mean they have named the 'driver'. You are the keeper.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 04-03-2017 at 11:54 PM.
Page 3
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Mar 17, 6:54 PM
    • 44,276 Posts
    • 56,995 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    If my request for information/guidance on car parking fine ended up on the 'general' thread then the site is not very clear.there seems to be several people who have done exactly this,so it suggests their is a weakness in the process/links/directions on how/where to go to get the right thread?
    If by chance I did start a new thread then great but my observation still stands given the sheer amount who have done as I've described above.
    regards kippertie
    Originally posted by kippertie
    There is a NEW THREAD button immediately above your post.

    You must have missed watching the advice guide about how to use the forum, when you joined? Hardly anyone posts here, just those who don't read the 'how to use the forum' info provided and who also completely miss what is right here:

    This thread is for general information only.

    Please do not post questions about your parking tickets in this thread.


    For personalised help and guidance from our wonderful forum regulars (for free ) please start your own thread by clicking on this blue button:

    Originally posted by Crabman
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Alexzkey
    • By Alexzkey 24th Mar 17, 4:19 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Alexzkey
    I just wanted to say thank you for this, I sent off the template for the BCA Highview parking fine, and within an hour I got all 4 I had cancelled, easy peasy! Thanks a lot!
    • Smgeorge
    • By Smgeorge 26th Mar 17, 1:05 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Smgeorge
    Hello,

    I have received a document from the court ordering me to pay for my parking ticket through civil enforcement. £350!!! I have about 23 days left of the 28 days left to do something. I don't want to risk disputing it and then losing and having to pay more money ? Can anyone help?
    • waamo
    • By waamo 26th Mar 17, 1:07 PM
    • 975 Posts
    • 942 Thanks
    waamo
    Read this thread from the start.
    This space for hire.
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 26th Mar 17, 2:32 PM
    • 6,746 Posts
    • 6,698 Thanks
    pogofish
    Hello,

    I have received a document from the court ordering me to pay for my parking ticket through civil enforcement. £350!!! I have about 23 days left of the 28 days left to do something. I don't want to risk disputing it and then losing and having to pay more money ? Can anyone help?
    Originally posted by Smgeorge
    Instead of hijacking this thread, why not read the advice here and take it..?
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