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  • FIRST POST
    turtlepanda
    TNC & P4 parking..help needed please
    • #1
    • 19th Oct 13, 5:02 PM
    TNC & P4 parking..help needed please 19th Oct 13 at 5:02 PM
    Hi All!

    I am currently receiving letters from TNC parking services demanding money and threatening court action. I wish I had come on here earlier and seen everyone's advise to ignore however I appealed which might have implicated myself as the driver and now I am not sure what to do.

    Main details- I live in Scotland, the incident took place in a residential car park (I live here and have permits.)

    Currently, I have the understanding P4 parking broke the current BPA codes practice-
    37.3- which states P4 should 'stop processing the ticket immediately Or Accept or reject the challenge in writing within 35 days of receiving in.[/COLOR] I appealed in time and I have heard no response from them until the demanding letters from TCN 4 months after the incident.
    34.3- 'Parking charges must be fair, reasonable and not disproportionately high.' I have a permit so the landowner has not suffered a financial loss. Certainly, not to the extent of 100.
    37.7 which states If you reject a challenge to the issue of a parking charge notice you must give the driver a reasonable amount of time to pay the ticket before restarting the collection process. The code recommends that you allow at least 14 days from the date you rejected the challenge. They passed it onto TNC parking services before responding to my challenge.

    I am also a bit confused because the location does't seem right. The location on my charge notice and letters is Republic Road, Y9I RM0, however where my car was parked and where the contract signs are is republic drive Y9I RN0. I think there has been a mix up and they think the address of the car park is actually Y9I RNO, however I am not sure if this is a valid defence?

    Does failing to comply with BPA codes of practice mean the ticket is invalid or can they continue to pursue you?

    I would be grateful for any advice you can give me as I am not sure where my defence stands, if I should-
    1) send one final letter stating i will not be paying for reasons above
    2) ignore and wait for court papers
    3) Complain to BPA and ignore P4/TNC
    4) Complain to BPA and P4
Page 1
  • Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 19th Oct 13, 7:09 PM
    • #2
    • 19th Oct 13, 7:09 PM
    1) will bring you further letters (hooked fish syndrome)
    2) ignore - and wait and see (court papers aren't inevitable) and in any case TNC are debt collectors - they can't take you to court.
    3) you could complain to BPA but don't expect any sympathy and definitely no action against any member of their club, but if it's just something to give them something to do, fire one off.

    Whether you copy in or out P4/TNC is neither here nor there, it won't have any material affect on your case.

    Minor 'errors' in addresses aren't going to invalidate anything. If they were saying you were parked in Glasgow when you were actually in Inverness then that's one thing but Republic Drive/Road and a 'M' instead of a 'N' is not going to have much bearing. Don't forget, you're not dealing with the Brains of Britain with PPC people.

    As you're so far down the road with this one and as you're in Scotland you're probably best continuing to ignore.

    If court papers arrive (and it's a BIG 'IF') don't ignore those, but there's been no court cases for Private Parking Tickets in Scotland to my knowledge - others may be able to advise if there's anything to the contrary here.

    HTH
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
  • Stroma
    • #3
    • 19th Oct 13, 7:19 PM
    • #3
    • 19th Oct 13, 7:19 PM
    Ignore them unless you get a notice before claim
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member
  • Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 19th Oct 13, 8:07 PM
    • #4
    • 19th Oct 13, 8:07 PM
    Ignore them unless you get a notice before claim
    Originally posted by Stroma

    Just to add for newbies, this is only the advice in Scotland and NI.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

  • zzzLazyDaisy
    • #5
    • 19th Oct 13, 9:51 PM
    • #5
    • 19th Oct 13, 9:51 PM
    If you start getting letters from a debt collection company, you might also want to have a look at the Credit Service Association website

    http://www.csa-uk.com/

    In particularly the CSA Code of Practice

    http://www.csa-uk.com/media/editor/f...ractice(1).pdf

    Para 10 of the code states

    10. Pre-Litigation and Litigation
    Pre-Litigation
    Every member shall:
    a) only state an intention to commence proceedings that are
    reasonably likely to be undertaken against or applied for in respect
    of the debtor


    In other words it is a breach of their code of practice to threaten court action unless there is a reasonable possibility of legal proceedings being commenced against you.

    Clearly that is not possible in your case as you are the RK and there is no keeper liability in Scotland as PoFA 2012 does not apply. So they cannot issue against you in the Sheriff's court in Scotland, and English courts cannot serve papers out of the jurisdiction (which includes Scotland). So the Principal is NOT going to issue legal proceedings against you as the registered keeper because it has NO legal right to do so.

    So if the debt collector's letters are threatening court, make a formal complaint to the CSA about their breach of the CSA CoP and ask CSA to investigate this.

    The Debt Collectors will then get harassing letters from the Credit Services Association.

    Think of it as Karma

    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.

    Letter Before Claim from a parking company? DO NOT IGNORE - THE NEXT STEP IS COURT ACTION. See my thread (page 1 of the parking forum) and FIGHT BACK!
  • turtlepanda
    • #6
    • 20th Oct 13, 11:08 AM
    • #6
    • 20th Oct 13, 11:08 AM
    Thanks for all the replies!

    I'm just panicking because silly me thought the parking ticket had been cancelled seeing as they didn't respond to my appeal and on their website my reference details wasn't showing up anything for me to pay. Its also really irritating because I could have complained to the my property management company who would have instantly cancelled it, however, my landlord never passed this information on to me so I have now missed their deadline.

    I am certainly not sending any money to TCN, on the first letter I received from them the number they gave to me was unlisted! Sounded far too much like a scam to me!
  • Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 20th Oct 13, 3:11 PM
    • #7
    • 20th Oct 13, 3:11 PM

    3) you could complain to BPA but don't expect any sympathy and definitely no
    action against any member of their club, but if it's just something to give them
    something to do, fire one off.
    Umkomaas did say the above as a fight back option to get this quashed (possibly). The BPA will investigate breaches of the Code of Practice. But beware, they are on the dark side (Trade Body for the PPCs) so be careful not to infer who was driving if you complain about this AOS member. Also make it clear you are in Scotland and realise that there is no registered keeper liability and so the PPC should drop the case anyway now they know you have declined to name the driver.

    Complain that they have no business harassing you as keeper - seriously I hope you didn't hand them on a plate the facts of who was driving when you rushed to appeal (which you should not have done at all if it was a windscreen ticket!).

    As the registered keeper they can't hang the case on you at all - but have you spilled the beans about the driver with your appeal wording? If you have you can still complain to the BPA about any non-compliance but you seriously missed a trick by appealing so early. TNC are known to send out VERY LATE and NON-COMPLIANT Notice to Keeper letters but it sounds like you didn't wait for that, if you appealed straight away.

    Anyway, here's the email addy at the BPA to complain to about any breaches in signage or procedures:

    steve.c@britishparking.co.uk


    HTH
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 20-10-2013 at 3:13 PM.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

  • turtlepanda
    • #8
    • 20th Oct 13, 4:20 PM
    • #8
    • 20th Oct 13, 4:20 PM
    Hi Coupon Mad,

    I would say I very strongly suggested I was the driver, In my appeal I said 'I have the right to park here.'

    Does anyone know if we have legal rights to appeal and if parking companies must stick to their appeal process? Basically I appealed and never heard anything back from them but i didn't think anything of it. However, looking on the BPA codes of practice regarding the appeals process they should have stopped processing the ticket and responded in writing. And if there were any consumer rights that would help me? If they had followed their processes the cost to me to cancel the ticket would have only been 20! Not the 140 they have increased it to.
  • Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 20th Oct 13, 4:31 PM
    • #9
    • 20th Oct 13, 4:31 PM
    Hi Coupon Mad,

    I would say I very strongly suggested I was the driver, In my appeal I said 'I have the right to park here.'

    Does anyone know if we have legal rights to appeal and if parking companies must stick to their appeal process? Basically I appealed and never heard anything back from them but i didn't think anything of it. However, looking on the BPA codes of practice regarding the appeals process they should have stopped processing the ticket and responded in writing. And if there were any consumer rights that would help me? If they had followed their processes the cost to me to cancel the ticket would have only been 20! Not the 140 they have increased it to.
    Originally posted by turtlepanda


    You have no 'legal right' to appeal in Scotland because POFA doesn't apply. There is NO APPEAL WORTH DOING in Scotland. We always say to IGNORE IT.

    Hence why your only source of complaint would be to the BPA Ltd and possibly to your local Trading Standards and Councillor to rattle some cages if they are interested (often not).

    In Scotland they need to know who was driving - and you told them by appealing. Don't make that mistake again with a private firm, especially one which uses TNC and would have dug their own holes if you had let them send a late Notice first, then reported that to the BPA. You should never have appealed but never mind, it's unlikely to go anywhere and you can ignore TNC and other debt collector letters.

    CERTAINLY DO NOT PAY!!!!

    See if the BPA or TS will investigate the breaches of the Scottish version of the BPA CoP though.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 20-10-2013 at 4:34 PM.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

  • zzzLazyDaisy
    Hi Coupon Mad,

    I would say I very strongly suggested I was the driver, In my appeal I said 'I have the right to park here.'.
    Originally posted by turtlepanda
    OUCH!

    Although POFA does not apply in Scotland so they can't pursue you through the courts as the registered keeper, there is nothing stopping them taking you to court as the driver under simple contract law (that has always been the case, but generally they are stymied by the fact that they don't know who the driver is). Having said that, they would have to bring the action in the sheriffs court (the english courts have no jurisdiction in scotland) and my understanding is that the sheriff's court leans much more in favour of the driver than english courts especially in an isolated 'breach'. So you are probably still okay.

    For future reference - if you get a windscreen ticket always wait for the Notice to Keeper to come by post (if it is a 'caught on camera PCN your first notice will come through the post anyway). And always identify yourself as the Registered Keeper and refer to 'the driver' in the third person without identifying who the driver is (even if RK & D are the same person).

    hth

    Daisy
    I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.

    Letter Before Claim from a parking company? DO NOT IGNORE - THE NEXT STEP IS COURT ACTION. See my thread (page 1 of the parking forum) and FIGHT BACK!
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