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    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 1st Mar 17, 9:08 PM
    • 993 Posts
    • 501 Thanks
    Tyzap
    It sounds like this could be a case of denied boarding.

    In which case this is what should happen.....

    When passengers are offered the option of continuation or re-routing of a journey, this must be ‘under comparable transport conditions’. Whether transport conditions are comparable can depend on a number of factors and must be decided on a case-by-case basis. Depending on the circumstances, the following good practices are recommended:
     if possible, passengers should not be downgraded to transport facilities of a lower class compared with the one on the reservation (in the event of downgrading, the compensation provided for in Article 10 applies);
     re-routing should be offered at no additional cost to the passenger, even where passengers are re-routed with another air carrier or on a different transport mode or in a higher class or at a higher fare than the one paid for the original service;
     reasonable efforts are to be made to avoid additional connections;
     when using another air carrier or an alternative mode of transport for the part of the journey not completed as planned, the total travel time should, if possible, be as reasonably close as possible to the scheduled travel time of the original journey in the same or higher class of carriage if necessary;
     if several flights are available with comparable timings, passengers having the right to re- routing should accept the offer of re-routing made by the carrier, including on those air carriers cooperating with the operating carrier;
     if assistance for people with disabilities or reduced mobility was booked for the original journey, such assistance should equally be available on the alternative route.
    Any new right to compensation according to Article 7 will apply to the re-routed flight accepted under Article 8(1)(b) or (c) if it is also cancelled or delayed at arrival (see Section 4.4.11). The Commission recommends that options are clearly spelled out to passengers when assistance is to be provided.

    Good luck.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide.
    • Sloanranger
    • By Sloanranger 1st Mar 17, 10:19 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Sloanranger
    Hi all. Can anyone tell me how far back I can claim for a flight delay
    • Caz3121
    • By Caz3121 1st Mar 17, 10:26 PM
    • 10,782 Posts
    • 7,025 Thanks
    Caz3121
    Hi all. Can anyone tell me how far back I can claim for a flight delay
    Originally posted by Sloanranger
    6 years for England and Wales, 5 for Scotland. You can claim for flights further back but the airlines know that they can ignore or reject your claim and there is nothing you can do about it after these times (deadlines for going to court)
    • williduck
    • By williduck 2nd Mar 17, 10:15 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    williduck
    Knock On Effects
    Hi

    I have been denied compensation for a delay due to extraordinary circumstances for ATC issues, however I do not believe our flight was subject to ATC restrictions more that it was earlier flights in the day affecting the plane?

    If the lane had been delayed earlier in the day due to ATC restrictions thus affecting our flight is this justification to deny compensation?

    Thanks

    Will
    • DrA_Harrogate
    • By DrA_Harrogate 2nd Mar 17, 12:29 PM
    • 252 Posts
    • 98 Thanks
    DrA_Harrogate
    Briefly, if the restrictions did not affect your flight then compensation is payable. Download and fully digest Vauban's guide and proceed accordingly. Do come back for further advice - post in the the relevant airline thread as it keeps the place tidy!
    Last edited by DrA_Harrogate; 02-03-2017 at 12:29 PM. Reason: mistyping!
    • Caz3121
    • By Caz3121 2nd Mar 17, 1:25 PM
    • 10,782 Posts
    • 7,025 Thanks
    Caz3121
    I have been denied compensation for a delay due to extraordinary circumstances for ATC issues, however I do not believe our flight was subject to ATC restrictions
    Originally posted by williduck
    you can use the free NWNF checkers - EUClaim / bottonline and they will give a good indication on whether there should be compensation due
    • symphony63
    • By symphony63 2nd Mar 17, 1:44 PM
    • 58 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    symphony63
    It sounds like this could be a case of denied boarding.

    In which case this is what should happen.....

    Any new right to compensation according to Article 7 will apply to the re-routed flight accepted under Article 8(1)(b) or (c) if it is also cancelled or delayed at arrival (see Section 4.4.11). The Commission recommends that options are clearly spelled out to passengers when assistance is to be provided.

    Good luck.
    Originally posted by Tyzap
    This is exactly my question. Article 7 (2) "When passengers are offered re-routing to their final destination on an alternative flight pursuant to Article 8, the arrival time of which does not exceed the scheduled arrival time of the flight originally booked".
    That seems to me as the airline being correct refusing compensation. The flight arrived 1hr 32min later than the original scheduled arrival time.
    Or, that paragraph in the Notices could mean that there is now a new right for compensation ie if there is a delay on the re-routed flight, Article 7 (1)comes into force. Article 4 (1) states "Volunteers shall be assisted in accordance with Article 8, such assistance being additional to the benefits mentioned in this paragraph. The Notices add to this that Article 7 also applies as a new right for compensation. Therefore Article 7(2) is not relevant.
    And where is Section 4.4.11 quoted in the Notices maybe there it should give some clarification?
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 2nd Mar 17, 6:49 PM
    • 993 Posts
    • 501 Thanks
    Tyzap
    Reading the regs is as clear as mud sometime.

    I have not seen your question raised before so it may take the CAA or a court to unravel it. El-Al have not appointed a conciliation company, according to the CAA website, and I doubt if any NWNF company would deal with it either.

    Contacting the CAA for their opinion may be your next port of call.

    Good luck.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide.
    • JPears
    • By JPears 3rd Mar 17, 10:07 AM
    • 3,080 Posts
    • 867 Thanks
    JPears
    Clearly the poster was denied boarding, not a cancelled flight, being shunted from 1 plane to the next (and an earlier flight)
    So claim number 1 under reg 261/2004. which could ( and should) have been claimed from the moment the flight was denied boarding.

    What occurs next, to my mind becomes seperate incident.
    Said new flight was then delayed >3 hrs beyond the original flight arrival (and even more delay from the new flight arrival time)
    Claim number 2
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • Vauban
    • By Vauban 3rd Mar 17, 11:15 AM
    • 4,674 Posts
    • 2,071 Thanks
    Vauban
    If you voluntarily off-load yourself (for a free flight and voucher) are we sure that constitutes "denied boarding". I'm not sure it does ...
    • Knox Moore
    • By Knox Moore 3rd Mar 17, 12:06 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Knox Moore
    Delayed flight and missed connection
    Hi,

    My flight was delayed by 45 mins from Mumbai to Heathrow. This meant that I missed my connecting flight. BA put me on the next available flight (the next morning) so i arrived at my destination 12 hrs later than expected. Both flights were operated by BA and on the same ticket number, Can I claim compensation for this?

    Thanks
    • Vauban
    • By Vauban 3rd Mar 17, 12:14 PM
    • 4,674 Posts
    • 2,071 Thanks
    Vauban
    Hi,

    My flight was delayed by 45 mins from Mumbai to Heathrow. This meant that I missed my connecting flight. BA put me on the next available flight (the next morning) so i arrived at my destination 12 hrs later than expected. Both flights were operated by BA and on the same ticket number, Can I claim compensation for this?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by Knox Moore
    Yes you can - assuming the delay wasn't caused by "extraordinary circumstances". Tight connection mind, if you miss your flight for just a 45 min delay ...
    • symphony63
    • By symphony63 3rd Mar 17, 12:28 PM
    • 58 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    symphony63
    What occurs next, to my mind becomes seperate incident.
    Said new flight was then delayed >3 hrs beyond the original flight arrival (and even more delay from the new flight arrival time)
    Claim number 2
    Originally posted by JPears
    Sorry you got it wrong. The second flight was delayed >3Hrs but only 1hr 32 min from original flight.
    If you voluntarily off-load yourself (for a free flight and voucher) are we sure that constitutes "denied boarding". I'm not sure it does ...
    Originally posted by Vauban
    Read Article 4 (1) clearly the regs classify it denied boarding.
    According to your opinion the airline in this case has to pay compensation and the first flight does not come into the picture at all.
    • Vauban
    • By Vauban 3rd Mar 17, 1:09 PM
    • 4,674 Posts
    • 2,071 Thanks
    Vauban
    Read Article 4 (1) clearly the regs classify it denied boarding. According to your opinion the airline in this case has to pay compensation and the first flight does not come into the picture at all.
    Originally posted by symphony63
    I think I can articulate my own opinion, which is not necessarily as you describe it. In fact, having thought about this quite a bit, I'm pretty confident that you are not entitled to any compensation. To be clear thought I am not a lawyer - so this isn't professional advice or even absolutely certain. But you asked for opinions ...

    The Regulation makes a deliberate distinction between those voluntarily denied boarding, and those not.

    The number of passengers denied boarding against their
    will should be reduced by requiring air carriers to call
    for volunteers to surrender their reservations, in
    exchange for benefits, instead of denying passengers
    boarding, and by fully compensating those finally denied
    boarding. (my emphasis)
    This suggests to me that statutory compensation, beyond whatever is agreed between the passenger and airline when the passenger surrenders the seat, is not axiomatically due. I think we are agreed on that, though.

    So the airline could use two arguments to resist payment of compensation:

    First, you agreed to be delayed and agreed to compensation. That agreement was not contingent on the promise of a definite new arrival time. The Regulations in fact suggest those who agreed to forego boarding are not entitled to compensation for the subsequent delay in their journey. If you read them carefully, there is no entitlement to the provisions set out in Articles 5 and 7 (which now cover compensation for delays) - as Article 4, 3 makes clear in fact:

    If boarding is denied to passengers against their will, the
    operating air carrier shall immediately compensate them in
    accordance with Article 7 and assist them in accordance with
    Articles 8 and 9.
    This doesn't apply to you - only Article 8 does. As Article 4 1 makes clear:

    When an operating air carrier reasonably expects to deny
    boarding on a flight, it shall first call for volunteers to
    surrender their reservations in exchange for benefits under
    conditions to be agreed between the passenger concerned and
    the operating air carrier. Volunteers shall be assisted in accordance
    with Article 8, such assistance being additional to the
    benefits mentioned in this paragraph.
    I think this is pretty strong, and believe you would struggle to win on this point.

    The second argument is the one they're seemingly using, that your original contract made for a specific arrival time. That fact that you left earlier doesn't change the fact that you ultimately arrived only 90 mins later than you should have done - so compensation doesn't apply. I think this is a weaker argument, but I can see a judge being persuaded by it.

    Your best argument, I guess, would be that you are seeking the protections in Article 5 (which, post Wallentin, apply to delays as well as cancellations) - and that this means if you are rerouted and depart more than an hour before the original flight, then you are eligible to compensation as set out in Article 7. (So the time you arrived is arguably irrelevant - because you left 2 hours and 5 minutes earlier than you originally should have done.) But the fact that you volunteered to offloading means I think you've got no rights to invoke the Article 5 or Article 7 protections - just Article 8.

    But I wish you the best of luck - maybe the airline will judge that the costs of defending a legal claim mean it's easier to be rid of you with an goodwill offer or some suchlike. Let us know how you get on.
    Last edited by Vauban; 03-03-2017 at 1:12 PM.
    • Knox Moore
    • By Knox Moore 3rd Mar 17, 2:02 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Knox Moore
    Thanks Vauban,

    The flights were booked on BA's own website and the hour and a half was the time between flights Mumbai through Heathrow to Belfast. The delay was caused by The late arrival of the BA flight to Mumbai so the plane wasn't there to take off on time. Due to the 45 min delaythen they made the decision that we wouldn't make the connection and automatically put us on the next available flight the next morning.

    Do I claim the maximum of 600 euro for the full length of Journey? Also, Do I put my partner's claim on the same claim form as we were booked on the same ticket number?

    Knox
    • Vauban
    • By Vauban 3rd Mar 17, 2:08 PM
    • 4,674 Posts
    • 2,071 Thanks
    Vauban
    Thanks Vauban,

    The flights were booked on BA's own website and the hour and a half was the time between flights Mumbai through Heathrow to Belfast. The delay was caused by The late arrival of the BA flight to Mumbai so the plane wasn't there to take off on time. Due to the 45 min delaythen they made the decision that we wouldn't make the connection and automatically put us on the next available flight the next morning.

    Do I claim the maximum of 600 euro for the full length of Journey? Also, Do I put my partner's claim on the same claim form as we were booked on the same ticket number?

    Knox
    Originally posted by Knox Moore
    Yes and yes
    • JPears
    • By JPears 3rd Mar 17, 3:20 PM
    • 3,080 Posts
    • 867 Thanks
    JPears
    I think I can articulate my own opinion, which is not necessarily as you describe it. In fact, having thought about this quite a bit, I'm pretty confident that you are not entitled to any compensation. To be clear thought I am not a lawyer - so this isn't professional advice or even absolutely certain. But you asked for opinions ...

    The Regulation makes a deliberate distinction between those voluntarily denied boarding, and those not.



    This suggests to me that statutory compensation, beyond whatever is agreed between the passenger and airline when the passenger surrenders the seat, is not axiomatically due. I think we are agreed on that, though.

    So the airline could use two arguments to resist payment of compensation:

    First, you agreed to be delayed and agreed to compensation. That agreement was not contingent on the promise of a definite new arrival time. The Regulations in fact suggest those who agreed to forego boarding are not entitled to compensation for the subsequent delay in their journey. If you read them carefully, there is no entitlement to the provisions set out in Articles 5 and 7 (which now cover compensation for delays) - as Article 4, 3 makes clear in fact:



    This doesn't apply to you - only Article 8 does. As Article 4 1 makes clear:



    I think this is pretty strong, and believe you would struggle to win on this point.

    The second argument is the one they're seemingly using, that your original contract made for a specific arrival time. That fact that you left earlier doesn't change the fact that you ultimately arrived only 90 mins later than you should have done - so compensation doesn't apply. I think this is a weaker argument, but I can see a judge being persuaded by it.

    Your best argument, I guess, would be that you are seeking the protections in Article 5 (which, post Wallentin, apply to delays as well as cancellations) - and that this means if you are rerouted and depart more than an hour before the original flight, then you are eligible to compensation as set out in Article 7. (So the time you arrived is arguably irrelevant - because you left 2 hours and 5 minutes earlier than you originally should have done.) But the fact that you volunteered to offloading means I think you've got no rights to invoke the Article 5 or Article 7 protections - just Article 8.

    But I wish you the best of luck - maybe the airline will judge that the costs of defending a legal claim mean it's easier to be rid of you with an goodwill offer or some suchlike. Let us know how you get on.
    Originally posted by Vauban
    Sorry, I had forgotten the OP agreed to volunteer to re-route, not forced.
    I am more inclined to agree that no compensation due for re-routing.
    However, the poster's rerouted flight was delayed. Other passengers booked on this flight would possibly be entitled to compensation. It would appear severe for the re-routed passenger to not be eligible?
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • williduck
    • By williduck 3rd Mar 17, 10:23 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    williduck
    you can use the free NWNF checkers - EUClaim / bottonline and they will give a good indication on whether there should be compensation due
    Originally posted by Caz3121
    Thanks Caz

    EUClaim says that it was due to an extraordinary circumstance
    Bottonline says that I am due compensation

    Is one site more reliable than the other?
    • russ-diver
    • By russ-diver 13th Mar 17, 4:21 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    russ-diver
    FlightStats Now Charging!
    Hi,

    I see flight stats is now charging for historical flight data, I need to go back to 2013/2012/2011 - does anyone know of another website?

    Cheers
    • legal magpie
    • By legal magpie 13th Mar 17, 4:57 PM
    • 731 Posts
    • 346 Thanks
    legal magpie
    Oh dear, you have been unlucky. But if you are going to get all this compensation, perhaps it's worth paying for the information. Remember though that there is a 6 year time limit for commencing proceedings so your 2011 flight may already be statute-barred
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