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Juddering in 1st and 2nd gear? Any ideas?
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# 1
joey
Old 15-05-2007, 1:00 PM
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Default Juddering in 1st and 2nd gear? Any ideas?

Hi I'm hoping someone can help me, maybe give some ideas as to what could be causing this problem and how costly it will be to get fixed!!!

I brought a renault scenic alize about 5 or 6 weeks ago it's 9 years old. Has just developed a really strong judder (I call it kangarooing) this started yesterday and was only when starting up so in 1st gear, problem was gone when going into 2nd. However today it is also doing it in 2nd. It was always difficult to get into 1st gear - takes a bit of force. My immediate thought was that I was putting it straight into 3rd but I'm definitely not and now it's doing it in 2nd too anyway. It's really strong juddering the whole car jumps up and down, quite scary.

Has been serviced regularly, last done 06 and had an mot in April.

Please any ideas? I'm so worried and gutted especially as I've only had it just over a month.
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# 2
tony8
Old 15-05-2007, 1:47 PM
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Perm any one of a thousand causes.

However, one of the most common causes of engine judder in 1st, 2nd and/or reverse can be alied to engine/gearbox mountings. cost of repair should be reasonable but far less than replacing the whole car.
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# 3
Cumbrian Male
Old 15-05-2007, 4:15 PM
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Check gearbox oil level.

If thats ok then might be needing a new clutch. could be contaminated with oil if you have a leaky engine seal at the crank.
I have a cunning plan!
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# 4
joey
Old 16-05-2007, 4:52 PM
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Thanks to both of you.

Do you know of anyway to check the gearbox oil level as in the manual it just says to consult a renault dealer.?
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# 5
tony8
Old 16-05-2007, 7:36 PM
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Ah, the manual, that little old chest-nut, at the end of each section,"refer to main dealer", bless 'em.

Unfortunately, most mdern Reanault gear-box's are sealed units with a measured amount of oil put into the gear-box prior to being fitted, via the speed sensor hole. Therefore the only way to be certain is to drain the box then re-fill it with the correct amount.

If the oil level is low, the bearings in the box/diff will become very noisey very quickly, get someone to dip the clutch pedal with the engine running and have a listen, any distinctive change in sound may indicate further problems.

best of luck
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# 6
MortgageMamma
Old 16-05-2007, 8:47 PM
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I have had this problem several times with my renault megane and it was something to do with the fuel injection. Apparently there are four coils/fingers that help the car run properly and when one of them goes this juddering starts. It is a progressive problem, it starts as a slight judder like a misfire and then it becomes more aggressive. It cost me about £80 Each time to put right. If you take it to garage and get them to run a diagnostic programme on it this should idenfity if this is the cause.

Good luck, I'm just going to lease something a bit more reliable as this is my second megane and both had numberous problems!
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# 7
tony8
Old 16-05-2007, 8:59 PM
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You are quite right, each spark plug has it's own coil and if one fails you will experience juddering. The reason for this is the coils operate in pairs, ie 1 and 4, 2 and 3, so if one fails two cylinders are affected. This situation is usually complemented with alumination of the EML light. Electronic Management Light. The failed coil is very easy to find by unplugging each fuel injector in turn and finding the one that DOESN'T alter the running of the engine.

Once the faulty coil has been changed, usually the EMF will go out but will store the fault in the ECU memory.
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# 8
joey
Old 17-05-2007, 7:35 AM
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Thanks, am getting it checked today so will update you later.
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# 9
MortgageMamma
Old 17-05-2007, 7:43 AM
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Are you a mechanic tony? If so, could you recommend a large executive car which is known for reliability and fuel efficiency and hopefully not to bad emissions? oh and it needs to be a 4WD and quite tough as I live rurally

Just for info i need to get two dogs 3 kids in the back and I may have to tow a horse trailer very occassionally
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# 10
tony8
Old 17-05-2007, 6:05 PM
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Tell me Mortgagemamma, are you looking for new or used, petrol or diesel, manual or auto, plus budget?.
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# 11
MortgageMamma
Old 17-05-2007, 6:15 PM
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Erm, New or newish, diesel, manual and it has to have a reversing sensor on it lol

Budget, I'm probably going to lease so say anything under £450 PCM should be ok

Thanks in advance
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# 12
tony8
Old 17-05-2007, 8:18 PM
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I would suggest you take a look at the Lexus RX Hybrid range. Cheaper tax, no congestion charges I believe, you just need to plug it in at night.

As to cost of leasing , I'm afraid I have no idea.
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# 13
joey
Old 18-05-2007, 7:55 AM
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Well cars been checked at two different garages had two different opinions.

One said it was the clutch or the gearbox, he also said the clutch is slipping and he said it's definitely not mis-firing.

Second garage said the clutch and gearbox are absolutely fine! Said it is mis-firing at low revs and will need a code read to assess the cause. He also said it needs a new engine mount as it's gone , he did show me under the bonnet that the engine was jumping up where mount gone.

So....we're getting a new mount fitted on Monday and also getting a service done as hasn't been done since 05 and as they both said could be somethng as simple as the spark plugs as the service includes them thought might as well do that.

Do you think it could just be the engine mount causing it???
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# 14
northern_munky
Old 18-05-2007, 9:47 AM
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Yes, engine mounts can cause the judder you have, you can check the car for a slipping clutch yourself by putting the handbrake on fully, start engine, put car in 4th gear, then let clutch out and press accelerator (as if trying to drive) if the car stalls then you should be OK, if the car carries on running then it's slipping (don't run it for too long like this though).

If it hasn't been serviced for 2 years now, then it really does it need so I wouldn't skimp on this.
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# 15
waster
Old 18-05-2007, 10:31 AM
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With regards to tony8 comment re coils and working on 2 cylinders I cannot see how this would only impact 1st and/or 2nd gears. It would occur right across the gear and rev range if the coil was faulty. It may not be as noticable higher up the rev range, but would certainly result in low or very reduced power output. Same with with a dodgy plug(s).

In my view it is more than likely to be the clutch and/or engine mount(s). Juddering when pulling away in 1st and/or 2nd gear is often caused by a dodgy thrust bearing in the clutch assembly. Unfortunatlely you can only get at this by stripping the clutch down, in which case it is false economy not to replace the lot (i.e thrust/friction plate, cover assembly and thrust bearing). You should also check there are no oil leaks coming from the oil seals as that will just cause any contamination to re-occur immediately.

Good luck I hope you get it sorted.
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# 16
FrugalJo
Old 24-05-2007, 7:01 AM
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Joey
Your problem is identical to my juddering 2000 scenic alize last month. Was just after the dodgy petrol story and I thought I'd been caught with that.
However a bit of research on the parkers advice forum and renaultforums confirmed it was the coils. I was advised to change all four at the same time, Renault wanted over £200 to replace and fit. I managed to get four coils for £50 from a well known online auction site and did it myself, I am far from mechanically minded. Running like a dream now.
Window regulator just gone now - another common fault I'm told..
Still love the car though.
The man who removes a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. - Chinese Proverb
Jo

Last edited by FrugalJo; 24-05-2007 at 7:03 AM.
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# 17
Conor
Old 24-05-2007, 12:32 PM
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What can cause the juddering...

1) Worn mounts.
2) Misfire at low engine speeds
3) Broken springs on clutch friction plate.
4) Oil leaking from rear crankshaft seal onto clutch.
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# 18
joey
Old 24-05-2007, 4:54 PM
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Thanks to everyone for all the advice.
It seems to be fixed (touch wood).
Had the full service that included new sparks, new fuel filter I think and had the engine mount replaced but that didn't help so then had the "ht leads" replaced and it seems to have worked. 220 later!!!
But still, as was said it really did need a service and the engine mount was completely knackered so no money was wasted.
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