Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
Page 153
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 7th Oct 17, 11:54 AM
    • 1,062 Posts
    • 530 Thanks
    Tyzap
    HI, that's useful information. My intention for my court proceedings is to show that other planes did land after our flight was diverted (after the aborted landing attempt). Thus showing that neither the tyre or weather would constitute extraordinary circumstances.

    However, I'm struggling to prove flights did land after ours, merely as I can't seem to find that data. Where did you manage to get it from?
    Originally posted by pcyuljr
    Hi pcyuljr, barrovian, hryder and pombear,

    I've been giving this some thought and think I have come up with what happened and why.

    Basically this post by pombear has nailed it...

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=73146184&postcount=2991

    On the evening in question aircraft were landing and departing at SKG on runway 34 from the south. However, due to the tyre problem which occurred at MAN, the aircraft was changed to one which, I assume, did not have the correct landing aids to be able to land on runway 34.

    As a result the J2 aircraft attempted to land from the opposite end (south) of the same runway, runway 16, which had a tail wind blowing down it.

    Different aircraft types are limited to the amount of tail wind they are allowed to land with as this can be very dangerous.

    As the J2 aircraft was out of these limits the pilot had to abort the landing and divert to Athens.

    It seems that J2 are being rather disingenuous when they claim extraordinary weather caused the delay, very obviously it did not, it was due to using the wrong aircraft. Presumably this was because G-GDFF was the only spare/standby aircraft available.

    Other aircraft were arriving and departing at SKG without any problems. No other aircraft, around that time, aborted a landing or diverted to another airport. Every other aircraft landed or departed from runway 34, except for one aircraft, which was a Eurowings A320 from Cologne. This aircraft followed directly behind the J2 aircraft and landed successfully on runway 16 as the J2 aircraft was still climbing away.

    If my scenario is correct I would further assume that J2 dispatched the aircraft from Manchester in the hope that the tail winds on 16 would be within limits when they got there. They took a chance and lost. On that basis all passengers on both the outbound flight, LS903, and the return inbound flight, LS904, will be due compensation of €400 each.

    Good luck all.
    Last edited by Tyzap; 07-10-2017 at 12:04 PM. Reason: clarity.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide.
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 11th Oct 17, 7:50 PM
    • 1,062 Posts
    • 530 Thanks
    Tyzap
    Pcy - it was your post I saw further up that prompted me to stop lurking!

    In relation to Pcy's outgoing flight, and I am possibly clutching at straws here, but given SKG is known for strong northerly winds between June and August, necessitating landing on runway 34, could Jet2 not have predicted the flight would find it difficult to land following its delay? The winds are known so hardly freak or wholly exceptional weather. The pilot on our reciprocal inbound flight told us he was not allowed to land on Runway 34 at night. We don't know the reason for this but I do know, from research (as posted above), that night landings are permitted providing PAPIS are available (precision approach path indicators - usually adjacent to runway) and EGPWS (enhanced ground proximity warning system - installed on plane) are serviceable. I checked the reg of the plane (FlightRadar24) and its manufacture date was Nov 1999. We'll never know, but I wonder if it was fitted? (It was developed late 90s). Also, found a BA document on line, and they don't permit landing on runway 34 at night. Wonder if Jet2 do? Not sure if it makes any difference at all, but could they have foreseen this could happen in the event of delay. And if they could, why schedule a flight to land late evening when, even if slightly delayed, known weather patterns combined with predictable runway restrictions could make it impossible to land?

    J Pears and Novice Angel - you have been so helpful. After more thought, I think I will DIY this. Good to know that they can't rely on knock-ons.
    Originally posted by PomBear
    Hi PomBear,

    It seems that landing on 34 is more difficult than most other runways as it requires a 3.8 degree glide slope approach rather than the normal 3 degrees. I also believe that 34 does have the PAPI's system. Still not 100% sure tho why most aircraft were able to land on 34 that night but your J2 flight couldn't.

    Good luck.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide.
    • pcyuljr
    • By pcyuljr 12th Oct 17, 4:59 PM
    • 105 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    pcyuljr
    Hi Tyzap, thank you for the all above information. I feel it will prove invaluable should I end up in a courtroom.

    Can I ask where you managed to obtain the information from please? I have looked on flight radar and flight stats to try and prove that aircraft landed after our abortive attempt but have struggled to find it anywhere.
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 12th Oct 17, 6:56 PM
    • 1,062 Posts
    • 530 Thanks
    Tyzap
    Hi pcyuljr,

    Most of it is from doing a live playback in real time, so plenty of detail. I also had a word with a pilot about the runways, who helped to a degree and showed me the glide slope details. Don't think they like giving too much away when delay compensation is involved tho. We need a impartial friend with the right technical knowledge to help with some advice.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide.
    • pcyuljr
    • By pcyuljr 12th Oct 17, 8:04 PM
    • 105 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    pcyuljr
    What do you mean 'a live playback in real time'?

    Sorry if these are noob questions, but the above reads to me as if you have watched aircraft landing somehow at the airport?

    I'm just wondering how I can prove that aircraft landed at the airport after our abortive attempt - especially the Cologne one on the same runway!

    Not sure why Jet2 are trying to get out of this one. What you have said certainly would suggest their case stands up to no scrutiny!
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 12th Oct 17, 8:46 PM
    • 1,062 Posts
    • 530 Thanks
    Tyzap
    What do you mean 'a live playback in real time'?

    Sorry if these are noob questions, but the above reads to me as if you have watched aircraft landing somehow at the airport?

    I'm just wondering how I can prove that aircraft landed at the airport after our abortive attempt - especially the Cologne one on the same runway!

    Not sure why Jet2 are trying to get out of this one. What you have said certainly would suggest their case stands up to no scrutiny!
    Originally posted by pcyuljr
    Hi,

    Some of the flight tracker apps allow you to playback historic flights, usually it's the premium upgrades tho not the free apps that allow this. My version of Plane Finder allows the playback of flights from as long ago as 2011. Flight Radar used to allow historic flights but I think it's limited to a week if you have the free version. There are others but I don't know anything about them in any detail.

    Remember also that you do not have to prove it was not an EC, It's up to the airline to prove that it was, and why so. If they fail to prove this then you claim is successful. As J2 claim it was all due to a weather related EC they will need to be able to explain, to a court if it goes that far, why no other aircraft were affected. They won't be able to, and thats why I don't think this claim will get that far. If the weather really had been so bad other flights would have also been affected, but they weren't. If there was a problem with the runway other flights would also have been affected, but they weren't.

    The problem, imo, was related to either the equipment on board the aircraft or perhaps the crew rating (experience/training) in certain conditions such as storm and or darkness when landing at a none standard runway. Cannot quite put my finger on it!

    Good luck.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide.
    • pcyuljr
    • By pcyuljr 13th Oct 17, 1:31 PM
    • 105 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    pcyuljr
    Thanks again Tyzap. I guess I'm kind of preempting them claiming the weather was EC, then me having to provide some form of rebuttal.

    But for them to claim EC that would mean a large organisation lying in a court of law...

    Just out of interest, I submitted my MCOL on the 17th September, 4 weeks this Sunday.

    What kind of timescales should I be looking at? I assumed it was two weeks for them to provide their defence to the court, which does seem quite short a period.

    I've so far only had a simple acknowledgment from the law firm representing Jet2 where they asked for my e-mail (provided - nothing heard back from them).
    • JPears
    • By JPears 13th Oct 17, 1:51 PM
    • 3,160 Posts
    • 885 Thanks
    JPears
    They have 2 weeks from papers being served to either respond and submit a defene or respond and seek additional 2 weeks before defence in. You should be able to check progress online if its MCOL.
    If they have defaulted on the prescribed timetables, you can seek judgement by default, in your favour.
    They can then seek to have this setaside, but need good reason for not adhering to the times/dates set by the court.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 13th Oct 17, 4:48 PM
    • 1,062 Posts
    • 530 Thanks
    Tyzap

    But for them to claim EC that would mean a large organisation lying in a court of law...
    Originally posted by pcyuljr
    They lied to me over the same matter, so I don't see why you should get away with it

    Seriously tho, they have form. Not that they are different to any of the other airlines.

    I took them through the courts over the definition of an EC, and they were eventually forced to compensate me. They, of all the airlines, should know the exact definition of an EC, following those court cases, which also created a precedent that all courts are now obliged follow.

    I have every confidence in your case.

    Good luck.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide.
    • NoviceAngel
    • By NoviceAngel 13th Oct 17, 5:57 PM
    • 1,885 Posts
    • 573 Thanks
    NoviceAngel
    .........
    I've so far only had a simple acknowledgment from the law firm representing Jet2 where they asked for my e-mail (provided - nothing heard back from them).
    Originally posted by pcyuljr
    I'd add that you can agree service of documents via email if you wish the 2birds normally agree to this and it can save you costs in posting everything signed for, you can also submit some documents to your local County Court via email.

    Cheers

    NoviceAngel
    After reading PtL Vaubans Guide , please don't desert us, hang around and help others!

    Hi, we’ve had to remove part of your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam
    • legal magpie
    • By legal magpie 14th Oct 17, 10:33 AM
    • 744 Posts
    • 352 Thanks
    legal magpie
    I would NEVER agree to service by email. Anything can go wrong. You may not get the email. The attachment may be too big and you may have to print it off.
    • PomBear
    • By PomBear 16th Oct 17, 12:08 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    PomBear
    I apologise that I went AWOL after posting. Not my intention at all.

    Tyzap - what you suspect makes perfect sense. I did read somewhere, although need to find the link (it was on a BA operating manual I found on line) that they are forbidden from landing on 34 at SKG at night.... Also, don’t know if anyone saw the recent ITV programme that followed Easyjet pilots in training? They needed to do an emergency landing and ruled out SKG although it wasn’t specified why. It appears it’s a technically challenging airport for any pilot. Especially at night.

    No update on my case. I did complain to CAA (was warned on here that they are as useful as a chocolate teapot), did it simply to try to back my case up. Heard nothing (but I suspect Ryan Air and Monarch are keeping them busy - hmm). So planning to submit a NBA very soon.
    • PomBear
    • By PomBear 16th Oct 17, 12:24 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    PomBear
    I also think the ridiculous delay the following day was because the crew were out of hours and needed to rest... captain made clear he was the same pilot as night before. We didn’t take off until nearly 5pm from SKG following day. They certainly didn’t try to get us home ‘above and beyond’ (same aircraft and crew) and were economical with the truth....
    • JPears
    • By JPears 16th Oct 17, 9:55 AM
    • 3,160 Posts
    • 885 Thanks
    JPears
    pcy - have you checked your claim status online?
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • Tyzap
    • By Tyzap 16th Oct 17, 6:10 PM
    • 1,062 Posts
    • 530 Thanks
    Tyzap
    I apologise that I went AWOL after posting. Not my intention at all.

    Tyzap - what you suspect makes perfect sense. I did read somewhere, although need to find the link (it was on a BA operating manual I found on line) that they are forbidden from landing on 34 at SKG at night....
    Originally posted by PomBear
    Hi PomBear,

    The strange thing is that all other aircraft, apart from yours plus one other which landed on 16, did land on 34 so a bit of a question mark there. It may be due to a combination of storm plus darkness or similar.

    As said before tho, that info is not essential as J2 must prove that the problem was an EC and why, the onus is on them. But it would be nice fill the last missing piece of the jigsaw, just for completeness.

    Good luck.
    Please read Vaubans superb guide.
    • pcyuljr
    • By pcyuljr 16th Oct 17, 6:36 PM
    • 105 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    pcyuljr
    Yep, I checked it.

    It reads as follows;

    You submitted a claim on 17/09/2017 at 09:55:56
    Your claim was issued on 18/09/2017
    Jet2.com filed an acknowledgment of service on 02/10/2017

    So that was two weeks ago today.

    Do I give them another week then ask for a judgement to be made if no response?
    • NoviceAngel
    • By NoviceAngel 16th Oct 17, 6:49 PM
    • 1,885 Posts
    • 573 Thanks
    NoviceAngel
    They have a total of 28 days from 18/9 as I understand the rules, my guess - they will get their defence in on the very last day so could be tomorrow the court system MCOL will only let you apply for judgement by default, when their time is up, so try every day.

    Good luck
    After reading PtL Vaubans Guide , please don't desert us, hang around and help others!

    Hi, we’ve had to remove part of your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam
    • JPears
    • By JPears 16th Oct 17, 7:34 PM
    • 3,160 Posts
    • 885 Thanks
    JPears
    Like Novice said.
    Judges don't like Judgement by default so if you get judgement by default and they apply for set aside, expect them to get it. Its an abuse of the system by the legal "profession" unfortunately.
    If you're new. read The FAQ and Vauban's Guide

    The alleged Ringleader.........
    • legal magpie
    • By legal magpie 16th Oct 17, 7:49 PM
    • 744 Posts
    • 352 Thanks
    legal magpie
    Like Novice said.
    Judges don't like Judgement by default so if you get judgement by default and they apply for set aside, expect them to get it. Its an abuse of the system by the legal "profession" unfortunately.
    Originally posted by JPears
    Very cynical view and an overgeneralisation.
    Applications to SJA are now subject to Denton (relief from sanction test) as well as other CPR.
    (a) Is there a good reason why they didn’t get their defence in on time. “Pressure of work” is not a good reason.

    (b) Was the application to SJA made promptly
    (c). Is there a real (not fanciful) prospect of success
    (d). Should they be granted relief from sanction in all the circs of the case.

    (c) is the most important. They will have to disclose their full case . If they don’t they will fail.
    • NoviceAngel
    • By NoviceAngel 16th Oct 17, 8:17 PM
    • 1,885 Posts
    • 573 Thanks
    NoviceAngel
    I'd like to know what proportion of cases won by Judgment by default later get Set aside ?
    After reading PtL Vaubans Guide , please don't desert us, hang around and help others!

    Hi, we’ve had to remove part of your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

270Posts Today

1,429Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • RT @LordsEconCom: On Tuesday Martin Lewis, Hannah Morrish & Shakira Martin gave evidence to the Cttee. Read the full transcript here: https?

  • Ta ta for now. Half term's starting, so I'm exchanging my MoneySavingExpert hat for one that says Daddy in big letters. See you in a week.

  • RT @thismorning: Can @MartinSLewis' deals save YOU cash? ???? https://t.co/igbHCwzeiN

  • Follow Martin