Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Jan 13, 5:36 PM
    • 3,702Posts
    • 4,559Thanks
    zeupater
    Solar ... In the news
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 13, 5:36 PM
    Solar ... In the news 7th Jan 13 at 5:36 PM
    Hi All

    Thought it was about time we had a thread specifically to discuss relevant press articles relating to solar pv & thermal ..... so here goes ...

    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 07-01-2013 at 5:48 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
Page 97
    • Nicolai Grenovski
    • By Nicolai Grenovski 7th Sep 17, 3:12 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Nicolai Grenovski
    laughable, last time I looked every post ever made was on this one thread and most where he(?)'s popped up were pro-nuclear based, odd really for someone claiming to be in the solar industry, yet criticises the technology at every available opportunity, and posts from a country which is ditching nuclear! ..
    I'm a committed environmentalist - it's why I do what I do.
    What sort of an argument is it to say solar (and I challenge you to identify one single negative solar comment) is any better at what it undoubtedly does because of another completely different technology.
    Solar is extremely useful - it has its place in our toolbox..
    But so does wind, geothermal, tidal, hydro and yes, so does nuclear.
    If you think it doesn't then that is a problem you have that is best argued elsewhere.
    The fact is that to address global warming we need to cut our emissions.
    Do you agree with this premise or not? - because your incessant attacks on one particular undoubtedly effective tool for addressing it are no different to me than someone attacking solar or wind power.
    Do you understand?

    So I don't know if you accept that we must address climate change, but it certainly does not feature in your comments.

    This thread is for solar news - so I go on the assumption that it isn't a hate site for trolls.
    If you you used it as a platform to attack wind power I'd take you to task on that too.

    I didn't come here to discuss nuclear, but it isn't heresy to point out errors in your attacks if you make them.

    SO PLEASE keep the subject on solar news./
    By all means let me know when Hinkley point gets covered in solar modules, but until that time >>>>>
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 7th Sep 17, 9:07 AM
    • 2,703 Posts
    • 1,010 Thanks
    NigeWick
    What sort of an argument is it to say solar (and I challenge you to identify one single negative solar comment) is any better at what it undoubtedly does because of another completely different technology.
    Solar is extremely useful - it has its place in our toolbox..
    Originally posted by Nicolai Grenovski
    I refer you to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0&t=22s from minute 50.

    That said, I fully accept that we'll want tidal, hydro, wind and batteries in the mix too. We certainly do not need coal, gas and nuclear generated electricity.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Sep 17, 9:34 AM
    • 5,794 Posts
    • 9,846 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    however, when the counterpoint of 60 years of nuclear subsidy without even a possibility of being subsidy free is raised, the 'foul play' flare is shot into the air and claims of 'anti-nuclear' are megaphoned around the G&E board for weeks, as well you know! .. isn't that a classic case of spin, the aggressor feigning aggrieved?

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    that, sqadly seems to be the entire basis of nearly a decades worth of anti-pv comments, whilst pretending it is he who is under attack.

    personally i see no point in it. i don't enjoy football, but would never go onto a football discussion to demonstrate my lack of ability, and i enjoy meat, but would never try to spoil the enjoyment of vegan posters, especially on an 'ethical' board, just so i can illustrate my lck of understanding on the full picture.

    maybe the saying should change to 'those that can do, those that can't just troll everyone else.'
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 07-09-2017 at 10:08 AM.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Sep 17, 10:07 AM
    • 5,794 Posts
    • 9,846 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    future cost of pv generation in the uk.

    i thought i might elaborate on some older comments i've made about the price direction uk solar is goin in. i've suggested 50pound or less lokks likely, well it's based on many facts-

    1. both the uk and germany issued contracts in early 2015 at around 80/mwh. and whilst the german contracts don't include all infrastructure costs, their contract costs have fallen by 30/mwh, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume a similar drop in costs would have been seen by the uk, within its cfd terms.

    2. costs for installing pv in the uk are actually a little lowere than in germany.

    3. Scottish renewables study stated that english costs were already about 60/mwh some time back.

    4. some subsidy free pv will start to be deployed from 2018 in england, and a large farm planned in scotland, though that one may be deployed later as they are still watching prices/costs.

    5. pv costs are currently artificially high in the eu due to the mip. costs cvould fall by about 25pc when that ends, reducing pv farm costs by around 10pc, as the panels represent approx 50pc of the costs.

    6. efficiency levels are still rising slowly, and perovskite/silicon could double current efficiency levels, this won't reduce the cost/kwp, but will allow twice the generation from the same area, or the same generation from half the area, effectively halving the land related costs. for example, a house that could fit 4kwp for 5grand, with 2grand of that for the pv could then install 8kwp for 7grand, reducing the install cost from 1.25k/kwp to 0.875k/kwp, effectively a 30pc reduction.

    all of these measures will obviously push farm pv below 50/mwh, and domestic pv below 5p/kwh long beforec 2030 ..... maybe 2020. [in 2017 monies]
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 7th Sep 17, 10:33 AM
    • 26,824 Posts
    • 13,006 Thanks
    Cardew
    that, sqadly seems to be the entire basis of nearly a decades worth of anti-pv comments, whilst pretending it is he who is under attack.

    personally i see no point in it. i don't enjoy football, but would never go onto a football discussion to demonstrate my lack of ability, and i enjoy meat, but would never try to spoil the enjoyment of vegan posters, especially on an 'ethical' board, just so i can illustrate my lck of understanding on the full picture.

    maybe the saying should change to 'those that can do, those that can't just troll everyone else.'
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Once again a post that is nothing but a personal attack.

    Anyone who disagrees with you on any point, both here and on other Boards is apparently anti-PV and a troll.

    That now appears to include posting - without comment - a link to a BBC article pointing out possible dangers of a vegan diet on a thread about vegan diets. I have very real experience of a close relative who became very ill following such a diet. Until he saw sense and took medical advice to follow a 'normal' diet he was almost as obsessive as you are about your beloved Solar.

    As said many times, why don't you put me on 'ignore' and then you won't be upset by my posts, and those of anyone else who thinks, IMO with justification, many of your posts are illogical and biassed. You do not have ownership of this section of MSE.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Sep 17, 10:57 AM
    • 5,794 Posts
    • 9,846 Thanks
    Martyn1981

    As said many times, why don't you put me on 'ignore' and then you won't be upset by my posts, and those of anyone else who thinks, IMO with justification, many of your posts are illogical and biassed. You do not have ownership of this section of MSE.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    but you don't annoy me. i find you nothing more than an irrelevance now, after all, you are still campaigning against a technology and subsidy scheme long after both have proven to be an enormous worldwide success.

    no you don't upset me, though i do feel some pity for you, the upset and failure you clearly still hold having bet against this decades greatest success must burn quite deep.

    as for myself or others having to place you on ignore so as to avoid seeing your trolling ....... there is a far simpler solution, and one that would also save you thousands of wasted posts.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 7th Sep 17, 11:00 AM
    • 3,209 Posts
    • 1,716 Thanks
    lstar337
    To clarify my position, I just want to keep this thread for links to solar news articles.

    Sadly my outburst has led to yet more off-topic posts in this thread, which is not what I intended.

    I also didn't mean to single out Nicolai Grenovski or nuclear based posts, apologies for that.

    It is inevitable (I suppose) that solar news posts will draw comparisons to other generation, I just can't stand the arguing over it! Especially when it is two posters who I respect for their contributions to different areas of the forum. It's like being a kid watching their parents fight!

    I enjoy reading the solar news articles (I find it interesting tech, and I have an array on my house), and this thread saved me a lot of time by putting them all in one place.

    I'm not really interested in nuclear news or 'facts'. Since I work in the nuclear industry, any news article reported isn't really 'news' to me, it's old news.

    So sorry for my initial rant (and followup), I just want to keep this as a place for news reports.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Sep 17, 11:03 AM
    • 5,794 Posts
    • 9,846 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    if you think the first graph is funny, wait till you see the second.

    IEA Gets Hilariously Slammed For Obsessively Inaccurate Renewable Energy Forecasts
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Nicolai Grenovski
    • By Nicolai Grenovski 7th Sep 17, 11:08 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Nicolai Grenovski
    I refer you to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0&t=22s from minute 50.

    That said, I fully accept that we'll want tidal, hydro, wind and batteries in the mix too. We certainly do not need coal, gas and nuclear generated electricity.
    Yes, I've seen it - I agree with what he says on solar and his data are correct for the areas he discusses although the tipping point he suggests for energy (2020) seems fanciful, other than in the very sunniest of locations without a large industrial demand.

    So in answer to the point I think you're making on solar displacing conventional "baseload" supplies - A qualified yes, especially in hot countries where solar pv matches aircon/refridgeration demand curves.

    Less so in darker, colder countries with a large industrial demand - the more seasonal variation, the lower (and slower) the penetration that is possible -at least as a general rule.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Sep 17, 1:20 PM
    • 3,702 Posts
    • 4,559 Thanks
    zeupater
    if you think the first graph is funny, wait till you see the second.

    IEA Gets Hilariously Slammed For Obsessively Inaccurate Renewable Energy Forecasts
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Hi

    I find that appraisal quite interesting, however it doesn't really attempt to explain why the forecasting model is flawed causing a need for continual upward adjustment ... sounds like a bunch of automatons doing today what they did yesterday to earn a crust which when confronted by issues simply apply the "above my pay grade!" rule ...

    Anyway, if the author is correct and the forecasts closely follow those of carbon intensive industries, then there's a simple & logical reason ... their forecasts use historical models which are based on long-term generation capacity investment where there's an imbalance between operating costs and capital investment, or capital investment is huge.

    Effectively an industry which has historically held almost complete control of the energy sector through a centralised generation model involving vast investment has completely overlooked the effect of economies of scale on market penetration combined with the comparatively low operation cost and short build/supply cycles of renewable technologies.

    In a situation where economies of scale lead to (say) a 20% reduction in plant & equipment costs, the overall effect on a carbon based generation cost would be marginal over time due to there being no impact of fuel input and operation costs ... move the same 20% P&E cost reduction to new disruptive technology investment and we see a very large reduction in generation costs ... each phase of PDCA is short, therefore there are more cycles, therefore more improvement, therefore the P&E costs start to fall exponentially due to increasing economies of scale, likely aided by increased competition for a slice of a fast growing market ... meanwhile, analysts sitting at the back of a dusty room somewhere continue to work on P&E supply cycles measured in decades, and therefore happily base their analysis on renewable installation data and costs which could be a couple of development/supply cycles old, hence continual uplift of a linear forecast as opposed to applying exponential curves ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Sep 17, 3:36 PM
    • 5,794 Posts
    • 9,846 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Hi

    In a situation where economies of scale lead to (say) a 20% reduction in plant & equipment costs, the overall effect on a carbon based generation cost would be marginal over time due to there being no impact of fuel input and operation costs ... move the same 20% P&E cost reduction to new disruptive technology investment and we see a very large reduction in generation costs

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    that's quite annoying, it's so obvious [when it's pointed out] but it hadn't dawned on me quite why pv and wind costs were falling so fast ........ because they are far more capex heavy and opex light.

    that also increases the importance of something i've said before about life expectancies being longer than 'expected', since these divide into capex, though i assume diminishing returns, as a return must still be made reasonably asoon.

    recently saw that some off-shore wind generation may reach 25yrs, which will help considerably with returns, and future bids.

    ...... so, so obvious, how did i miss that
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Sep 17, 4:28 PM
    • 5,794 Posts
    • 9,846 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    these are lab results, but show that efficiency of silicon based pv still has lots of potential without the need of high expense materials.

    New records for the solar cell of tomorrow

    "These records show that combining crystalline silicon and other materials is the way forward if we are to improve solar power's cost/efficiency ratio," said Christophe Ballif, Director of CSEM's PV-center and EPFL Photovoltaics laboratory.

    "It affirms that silicon heterojunction solar cells, when integrated into the structure that we've developed, can generate multi-junction cell conversion efficiencies over 32%" said Matthieu Despeisse, manager of crystalline silicon solar cells activities at CSEM.
    Just 'call me Mart'. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 7th Sep 17, 11:17 PM
    • 1,574 Posts
    • 2,086 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    short build/supply cycles of renewable technologies.
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Interesting post. The bit I've highlighted is one I've mentioned on occasion in comments: I returned to this modest ex-council terrace from abroad after some years, and within a month of my return had received quotes, accepted one and had a 4kWp installation commissioned. I'd done some research beforehand and I had my rainy day cash ISA to exploit so no complicated schemes.

    I've contributed to my own security of supply, I just pay my bill on receipt, no direct debit faff, and I've contributed to a reduction in fuel imports and national fuel security too, even in an infinitesimal way. I've also become much more aware of my own energy usage.

    I'm not aware of any other way I could make such a personal contribution for nuclear, beyond extortionate unit rates as a passive consumer. No special bonds I could buy - like those War Bonds which were eventually redeemed..

    At some stage though I may have to review my decent holding of ex-employee SSE shares! In the meantiome I'm hoping Coire Glas comes to fruition as it will be invaluable for balancing loads and exploiting solar and wind intermittencies, and as a shareholder I'd definitely be for it. There are some things large companies are best for, and it'll be some time before I can afford my own battery!
    • ASavvyBuyer
    • By ASavvyBuyer 8th Sep 17, 8:23 AM
    • 507 Posts
    • 1,306 Thanks
    ASavvyBuyer
    At some stage though I may have to review my decent holding of ex-employee SSE shares! In the meantiome I'm hoping Coire Glas comes to fruition as it will be invaluable for balancing loads and exploiting solar and wind intermittencies, and as a shareholder I'd definitely be for it. There are some things large companies are best for, and it'll be some time before I can afford my own battery!
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    Thanks for the mention of Coire Glas, interesting if it goes ahead.
    Rhondda Cynon Taf, 4kWp, W roof, 30° pitch, 16 x 8.33 Eternity 250w E+10 panels, Solar Edge SE4000-16A Inverter + P300 Optimisers & REUK Diverter
    + Toshiba RAS-10G2KVP-E Ultra High Efficiency Air Conditioner/Heat Pump
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 8th Sep 17, 8:54 AM
    • 2,703 Posts
    • 1,010 Thanks
    NigeWick
    all of these measures will obviously push farm pv below 50/mwh, and domestic pv below 5p/kwh long beforec 2030 ..... maybe 2020. [in 2017 monies]
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    @tonyseba reckons that the cost of home/local PV and battery will be less than the cost of electricity transmission around 2020. Obviously we'll still need large scale generation for some industries but basically he's saying that within ten years virtually everywhere will be solar powered.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 8th Sep 17, 9:10 AM
    • 2,703 Posts
    • 1,010 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Less so in darker, colder countries with a large industrial demand - the more seasonal variation, the lower (and slower) the penetration that is possible -at least as a general rule.
    Originally posted by Nicolai Grenovski
    I understand that and there are already sunny places where solar is less than the cost of any other electric energy source unsubsidised.

    I live in England (so not too sunny) and have a 4kW system. I turn my gas water heating off in May and do not need to turn it on again until October due to the solar producing enough for my daytime needs. I note that I am often exporting to the grid which for me is a waste. I am therefore looking to increase the PV a bit and add a Tesla Powerwall 2 which should mean that I am completely self sufficient in half decent weather. As solar and battery technology improves, and so far it has been faster than @tonyseba 's graphs predicted, I am sure that the take up will accelerate as more and more people can afford it. I believe the UK has more than enough solar and wind potential, when combined with batteries, to make us completely electricity independent using just renewables.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 8th Sep 17, 9:16 AM
    • 2,703 Posts
    • 1,010 Thanks
    NigeWick
    I'm hoping Coire Glas comes to fruition
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    And one hopes, more similar projects.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Nicolai Grenovski
    • By Nicolai Grenovski 8th Sep 17, 11:29 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Nicolai Grenovski
    I note that I am often exporting to the grid which for me is a waste. I am therefore looking to increase the PV a bit and add a Tesla Powerwall 2 which should mean that I am completely self sufficient in half decent weather.
    Hi Nigel, I live in Germany.
    I know that not many UK houses have export meters but if you officially use solar to charge your battery instead of exporting to the local mains supply do you lose your FIT payment?
    I ask because I know of someone who got reported for diverting FiT solar to heat their water and this is effectively the same.

    Secondly, is your priority environmental or are you just seeking to cut costs?
    • gefnew
    • By gefnew 8th Sep 17, 1:08 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    gefnew
    No
    fit in the uk pays you for all your generation and a deemed 50% export.this is if you use it all or not, that is why there is a lot ways in the uk to divert excess solar to other devices or batteries as they become more cost effective. this will benefit both parties, cutting import costs and also helping the enviroment.
    regards
    gefnew
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 8th Sep 17, 1:49 PM
    • 26,824 Posts
    • 13,006 Thanks
    Cardew
    Hi Nigel, I live in Germany.
    I know that not many UK houses have export meters but if you officially use solar to charge your battery instead of exporting to the local mains supply do you lose your FIT payment?
    I ask because I know of someone who got reported for diverting FiT solar to heat their water and this is effectively the same.

    Secondly, is your priority environmental or are you just seeking to cut costs?
    Originally posted by Nicolai Grenovski
    Is this the situation in Germany? as it isn't in UK.

    There are all manner of devices marketed to divert solar electricity, mainly to the immersion heater in a HW tank. e.g. immersun https://www.immersun.co.uk/ many of these are now included in the installation package.

    Given it has a German name I assumed it was originally a German manufactured device.

    In case you are unaware of the situation in UK. The FIT payment is for every kWh generated. In addition there is an export payment for an assumed 50% of the total generated kWh. This 50% export is paid regardless of the householder exporting 100% of the generated kWh or 0% of that generated. So in theory you could use every kWh in the house and export nothing, and still claim the 50% export payment.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,360Posts Today

8,075Users online

Martin's Twitter