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Vodafone shares - any good?
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# 41
srcandas
Old 14-11-2012, 6:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
Vodaphone has just posted a loss.
Doesn't seem to have sunk in yet though.
It's fair comment Glen but many companies post a loss and go on to massive profits. The stability of the company is equally based on strong reserves, infrastructure, contracts, partnerships, ownership of other companies, etc. as current profits.

And as an investor I am attracted to recovery situations. Little point for me to invest in successful organisations that are over priced.

I can only talk in detail on Spain but can assure you that many cheap spanish operators will and are going to the wall. Vodafone es will be around to pick up the pieces when the time comes. They have been trying to take a large chunk of the Spanish fixed phone market.

Agreed they could go bust but as part of a multi asset portfolio I can accept that.

But let us see
I believe past performance is a good guide to future performance
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# 42
sabretoothtigger
Old 14-11-2012, 8:40 AM
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VOD has been great for a while but they were better to buy at 110 or 130 even then now. Still they are part of the mobile boom in USA of the last decade and are generally sucessfully and well able to pay out, Ive not heard anything to differ from that

I looked at them years ago unfortunately I went with Telefonica which is also a mobile phone operator but Spanish and very unpopular but even they have never faltered from paying a rich dividend over 10% yield now I think. Wireless telecom can resemble both utility and tech growth potentially though also possible high risk from debt, investment required.

Check out the license cost and mess in Indian government for example

Quote:
Vodaphone has just posted a loss.
Doesn't seem to have sunk in yet though.
Just one years accounts. Why would be an essential question, it can be they put aside money that will never be required. Next year could mean all the losses reversed.
Could be an accounting gimmick as we are always hearing companies do to dodge taxes
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Last edited by sabretoothtigger; 14-11-2012 at 8:43 AM.
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# 43
Glen Clark
Old 14-11-2012, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by sabretoothtigger View Post
it can be they put aside money that will never be required.
or it can be that previous years profits were artificially inflated by high asset values they have now been forced to revalue.
The problems that are driving down Vodaphone profits in Europe are not going to be solved anytime soon.
But I think srcandas makes a good point in that Vodaphone can afford to cross subsidise European operations whilst weaker competitors go to the wall.
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# 44
sabretoothtigger
Old 14-11-2012, 10:45 AM
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Yep its hard to say which without taking a ten year view or so. I'd say Vod will fine in any country with positive population growth, they are not in the wrong sector.
Its not like we are talking about the demise of retail vs online shopping here just general activity in some regions does not favour growth

I dont see this company as 'expensive' It may be they are flat but at such high income thats a very positive view still.

Questor takes a look today - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/m...portunity.html

140 to 150 might be worth a look. 192 over the summer was great, with that disparity Im not surprised they sold off. An overreaction would be an opportunity then
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Tokyo residential prices have gone from 4x London in 1990 to London in 2014
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# 45
Glen Clark
Old 14-11-2012, 2:08 PM
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I'm not sure about this write down in asset values that has pushed them into the red. I presume it has been forced on them by auditors who have to sign off the accounts. In which case it means that the have been over valuing their assets on the basis of expected profits that have not materialized. In which case some of the profits declared in previous years were fictitious.
The reduction in revenues of 18% (Spain) is scary in a business that has such high fixed costs.
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# 46
Nicholas-bloody-Parsons
Old 14-11-2012, 2:50 PM
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I spotted the death cross pattern. This usually means that in the short to medium term, the share price is going to fall.....

At 12 months lows, so that may attract some buyers.

buy at your own risk

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# 47
melbury
Old 14-11-2012, 7:03 PM
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Well when I first started investing it was Finsbury Asset Management Limited, then it went to Close and it is now Alliance Trust.

Must say I have never thought about just getting the certificate myself; mainly because I never thought about charges

So if I just telephone them and say I would like to have my shares on a certificate and sent to me, presumably they would agree to this - obviously for a charge.

Think that would be the most sensible thing to do. Thanks for the advice, I should have done that years ago. I forget that investment trusts are just like any other shares.

They don't seem to pay any dividends! At the height of the tech shares boom they were worth double what they are now.

Forgot to say, they are in an ISA, would that make any difference?
Bump!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated
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# 48
grey gym sock
Old 14-11-2012, 7:43 PM
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oh, you can't have share certificates inside an ISA. if you asked for a certificate, that would involve giving up the ISA wrapper.

so it depends how much the ISA wrapper is worth to you. i.e. are you saving higher rate tax on dividends? or will you in the future? are you likely to pay CGT? (probably not unless you have a fair bit invested overall.) are you maxing your ISA allowance out every year? etc.
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# 49
melbury
Old 14-11-2012, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by grey gym sock View Post
oh, you can't have share certificates inside an ISA. if you asked for a certificate, that would involve giving up the ISA wrapper.

so it depends how much the ISA wrapper is worth to you. i.e. are you saving higher rate tax on dividends? or will you in the future? are you likely to pay CGT? (probably not unless you have a fair bit invested overall.) are you maxing your ISA allowance out every year? etc.

No, this stock is only worth about 5K and was purchased over a number of years. I don't really know why I bothered to put it as an ISA because it is nowhere near the CGT annual allowance. It has never paid dividends unfortunately.

I have been making a small regular monthly saving into another IT within an ISA, but presumably that wouldn't be affected - again not worth that much.

To be honest I didn't realize they were charging 12 per quarter for basically doing nothing, just holding the shares on my behalf. Make me feel really stupid actually for not checking these things.

Would the best course of action be to phone them up and ask how much they would charge me to issue a share certificate for my stock holding?
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# 50
grey gym sock
Old 14-11-2012, 9:27 PM
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you said it's with alliance trust now?

seems to be 20 to get a share certificate, according to table of charges here - http://www.alliancetrustsavings.co.uk/literature/

also 10 to withdraw any remaining cash - which presumably you'd have to do, so the account can be closed and you stop paying quarterly charges.

(i had an account with alliance trust not long ago, but happen to have cleared it out not long before the quarterly charge came in.)
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# 51
Thrugelmir
Old 14-11-2012, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
I'm not sure about this write down in asset values that has pushed them into the red. I presume it has been forced on them by auditors who have to sign off the accounts. In which case it means that the have been over valuing their assets on the basis of expected profits that have not materialized. In which case some of the profits declared in previous years were fictitious.
Yesterdays write downs brings the cumulative amount written off investments by Vodaphone in the past 6 years to 60 billion.

Seems as if prices were paid over the odds to acquire market share globally.
"The man who wishes to move a mountain begins by carrying away the small stones first."
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# 52
Glen Clark
Old 15-11-2012, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrugelmir View Post
Yesterdays write downs brings the cumulative amount written off investments by Vodaphone in the past 6 years to 60 billion.
That makes writing off investments sound more like a regular occurrence than a one off cost that has pushed them into the red
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