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  • FIRST POST
    • fishybusiness
    • By fishybusiness 27th Apr 12, 7:18 PM
    • 1,030Posts
    • 630Thanks
    fishybusiness
    Infrared Heating Panels....Again!
    • #1
    • 27th Apr 12, 7:18 PM
    Infrared Heating Panels....Again! 27th Apr 12 at 7:18 PM
    I've read other threads on the forum regarding the cost effectiveness of these panels. The general view seems to be that they are no better or worse than other electric heaters.

    I'm interested myself as we live in a house with rubbishy 3kw Dimplex convector heaters, and have thought about replacing them.

    I know the argument of 100% efficiency for electric heaters, but I think for infrared there is more to it. For example, convectors and radiant heaters heat air and objects, infrared heats objects, the claimed efficiency seems to be due to infrared not heating air mass that is moving or lost from the house.

    There is a good report that explains in more detail the theory, anyone interested could Google "LITERATURE STUDY ON RADIANT HEATING IN A THERMALLY- COMFORTABLE INDOOR ENVIRONMENT" by Maria Nila Alban
Page 4
  • Dominic Simonnet
    In answer to your reply..

    Via dust circulation? NO as that is not how infrared heating works, please see wikipedia.

    Cleaning you house has nothing to do with it,....

    We are talking on a micro level and as the convection process rotates the air around the room circulating, it is moving dust and drying out the air, this is why people suffer in central heated rooms. Infrared does not work this way.

    You emmit around 100w of heat as you generate it from your body, a Wall in your home doesn't move, thus doesn't generate heat.The gain, is that when you convection heat a room it is doing so by heating air, air will not penetrate objects only heat the surface where as Infrared penetrates all objects and heats from within, this is exactly why INfrared was first commercially used to dry the paint on tanks in the war, as conventional methods was taking to long and we needed to get the tanks out on the battlefield.

    Ref your calculations... you state...
    15kWh x 4.5p (for gas) = 67.5p

    5.5kWh x 15p (for electric) = 82.5p

    Correct if we where measuring an electric convection heater against a convection gas heater.. but we are not we are measuring it against infrared, which penetrates your building and thus needs less time ON to keep it at the same temperature.

    Hope this helps clear it up, on a personal note, i ran oil heating in my 4 bed house with single glazed windows for 2 years, when i purchased it my oil bill was £170 per month in the winter months. I switched to Infrared and my heating electric bill as measured is only £110 per month and another benefit is if my boiler breaks i get shouted at from the wife, if an infrared panel was to go down, i still have heating in all other rooms.

    If you provide me your email addresses i will send you an independent report from a German university.

    In the rest of Europe they have been using Infrared heating for sometime especially in Austria where it is the norm. Dont make the mistake of thinking its hype just because its new.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 7th Jul 14, 3:51 PM
    • 6,206 Posts
    • 4,697 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    In answer to your reply..

    Via dust circulation? NO as that is not how infrared heating works, please see wikipedia.

    Cleaning you house has nothing to do with it,....

    We are talking on a micro level and as the convection process rotates the air around the room circulating, it is moving dust and drying out the air, this is why people suffer in central heated rooms. Infrared does not work this way.

    You emmit around 100w of heat as you generate it from your body, a Wall in your home doesn't move, thus doesn't generate heat.The gain, is that when you convection heat a room it is doing so by heating air, air will not penetrate objects only heat the surface where as Infrared penetrates all objects and heats from within, this is exactly why INfrared was first commercially used to dry the paint on tanks in the war, as conventional methods was taking to long and we needed to get the tanks out on the battlefield.

    Ref your calculations... you state...
    15kWh x 4.5p (for gas) = 67.5p

    5.5kWh x 15p (for electric) = 82.5p

    Correct if we where measuring an electric convection heater against a convection gas heater.. but we are not we are measuring it against infrared, which penetrates your building and thus needs less time ON to keep it at the same temperature.

    Hope this helps clear it up, on a personal note, i ran oil heating in my 4 bed house with single glazed windows for 2 years, when i purchased it my oil bill was £170 per month in the winter months. I switched to Infrared and my heating electric bill as measured is only £110 per month and another benefit is if my boiler breaks i get shouted at from the wife, if an infrared panel was to go down, i still have heating in all other rooms.

    If you provide me your email addresses i will send you an independent report from a German university.

    In the rest of Europe they have been using Infrared heating for sometime especially in Austria where it is the norm. Dont make the mistake of thinking its hype just because its new.
    Originally posted by Dominic Simonnet
    - 1 post and already scraping private & personal information from MSE users

    Do not hand over personal information to strangers, do not go into the dark and murky world of private messaging, always post openly in the forum where regular uses and the forum team can offer protection if needed. If in doubt get in touch with the forum team on the TRHS of this page.


    openly
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
  • Dominic Simonnet
    Apologies, i was trying to be helpful!
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 7th Jul 14, 4:10 PM
    • 2,866 Posts
    • 1,468 Thanks
    lstar337
    In answer to your reply..

    Via dust circulation? NO as that is not how infrared heating works, please see wikipedia.
    Originally posted by Dominic Simonnet
    Try reading my post. This is how you claim convection works.

    Cleaning you house has nothing to do with it,....
    Originally posted by Dominic Simonnet
    Really? How can dust circulate, if it isn't there because you keep a clean house?

    We are talking on a micro level and as the convection process rotates the air around the room circulating, it is moving dust and drying out the air, this is why people suffer in central heated rooms.
    Originally posted by Dominic Simonnet
    Not in our house, we keep it clean. We have GSH, my OH has asthma, and yet doesn't suffer in our house.

    Ref your calculations... you state...
    15kWh x 4.5p (for gas) = 67.5p

    5.5kWh x 15p (for electric) = 82.5p

    Correct if we where measuring an electric convection heater against a convection gas heater.. but we are not we are measuring it against infrared, which penetrates your building and thus needs less time ON to keep it at the same temperature.
    Originally posted by Dominic Simonnet
    Lol, you did the sums not me. I wasn't comparing convection anything.

    You found the kWh totals, all I did was relate them to the cost of Gas and Electric per kWh.

    No comparison of convection or radiant heat.

    If you provide me your email addresses i will send you an independent report from a German university.
    Originally posted by Dominic Simonnet
    The same one that writes reports for snake oil heaters?

    In the rest of Europe they have been using Infrared heating for sometime
    Originally posted by Dominic Simonnet
    The rest of Europe where gas prices are much higher?
    • Andy_WSM
    • By Andy_WSM 7th Jul 14, 4:38 PM
    • 2,013 Posts
    • 4,435 Thanks
    Andy_WSM
    I prefer those Custard filled heaters sprinkled with fairy dust. Far more "efficient".

    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 7th Jul 14, 5:10 PM
    • 26,058 Posts
    • 12,527 Thanks
    Cardew

    If you provide me your email addresses i will send you an independent report from a German university.
    Originally posted by Dominic Simonnet
    Just give the link to the report in this thread!

    Below quote from your website:

    5-6 hours on time for 24 hours heating due to mass heating not air.

    •50% to 70% electrical bill savings, and we have had cases of 78% over oil boilers
    .

    Why not get the Energy Saving Trust or WHICH to support your claims?
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 7th Jul 14, 5:15 PM
    • 2,866 Posts
    • 1,468 Thanks
    lstar337
    Why not get the Energy Saving Trust or WHICH to support your claims?
    Originally posted by Cardew
    Good point.

    Get them to do some real-world testing and see if they agree. Since you believe you are right, it'll be another feather in your cap.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 7th Jul 14, 5:45 PM
    • 26,058 Posts
    • 12,527 Thanks
    Cardew
    The trouble with 'independent reports' is they can commissioned by the manufacturer; and the body writing the report are under no illusion what 'conclusion' is required. At various times on MSE we have had highly technical reports from various countries that when read thoroughly are absolutely meaningless.

    Our salesperson wrote the following:

    INfrared was first commercially used to dry the paint on tanks in the war, as conventional methods was taking to long and we needed to get the tanks out on the battlefield.
    Very probably true!

    My grandparents, in a house without central heating, had an infrared heater 'aimed' at the toilet seat. Several people I know have an infrared heater 'aimed' at themselves when sitting at a bench in an unheated garage; but the rest of the garage is b****y freezing.

    However any form of electrical heater*(including infrared) produces the same amount of heat for the same power consumed.

    * A heat pump is not an electrical heater - it is an appliance for transferring heat from outside the property to the inside.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 7th Jul 14, 6:57 PM
    • 6,206 Posts
    • 4,697 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    Currently : Director of Sales Marketing at Point Lead Generation Specialists - Online - Telemarketing - TV



    - essentially scraping leads for sales men to chase up
    - creating a stream of unwary clients / cannon fodder the industry relies on
    - hence my imploring the poor and unsuspecting not to hand over personal information to strangers

    I've read and responded to that report somewhere on MSE before, as Cardew said - wanna know how independent an independent report is - ask who paid the piper !
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
  • tonyE1
    Can anyone give the details of somewhere with a showroom that sells panels in the London area please?

    I may go down this route and would like to physically see them before purchasing.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 3rd Oct 14, 12:21 PM
    • 6,206 Posts
    • 4,697 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    Yes we met once before ..................

    Do not hand over personal information to strangers, do not go into the dark and murky world of private messaging, always post openly in the forum where regular uses and the forum team can offer protection if needed. If in doubt get in touch with the forum team on the TRHS of this page.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
  • tonyE1
    Yes we met once before ..................
    Originally posted by Richie-from-the-Boro
    I think you maybe spend too much time here
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 3rd Oct 14, 2:21 PM
    • 6,206 Posts
    • 4,697 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    I think you maybe spend too much time here
    Originally posted by tonyE1
    - I do, pity purveyors of warez frequent here so much, still as you say ;
    - I do spend so much time here watching those sellers of warez adverising their company name against the forum rules
    - and asking myself """ask who paid the piper""" ?
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Peteinnit
    • By Peteinnit 27th Oct 15, 10:42 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Peteinnit
    Replacing Storage Heaters
    Hi all,
    I've read this thread with interest and a little confusion and was hoping to resurrect it briefly (sorry). It seems there is no simple answer to the question, which is the most economical, which is what us laymen would like. Ideally all would just concur and tell us what we should install, but it seems to be 6 of one and half dozen of another. I've described my circumstance below and am hoping there might be some agreement in my conclusion.

    I have 15+ year old Dimplex XLS storage heaters, with a Pulsacoil 'boiler' and have been looking at my alternatives for replacement heaters, trying to compare benefits of new storage (Dimplex Quantum or new XLS) vs electric rads (Haverland) vs infrared (after reading this!).

    I've based my rough calcs on worst case in winter for the largest heater in the lounge, currently a 3.4kw vs a 1.7kw rad/infra red. I've assumed 2 hour boost on weekdays and 5 hour on weekends for the storage and 7 hours/weekday (7-9am + 6-11pm) and 12 hours/Sat and Sun for the rads. I realise this might be high usage, but even reducing the hours the cost difference on the heating doesn't seem to be massive between the two.

    What does make a difference is when you add in the cost of running the Pulsacoil. With new Quantum/XLS it would remain on Economy 7, but if I switch to rads/infrared, I would loose the cheaper rate. If I kept E7 solely for the boiler, the rads would be running on an even higher daytime rate, either way wipes out any savings I might make on the heating quite considerably.

    So, for my circumstance it would seem a no brainer to replace with new storage heaters, does that seem to be the correct route? I think that's the way to go, but it would be nice to have it confirmed by people more in the know.

    If so, it's choosing between the Quantum or new XLS auto. I've heard/read some good things about the Quantums, so would be interested to hear any impartial views on them and if anyone has experience of them. Are they worth the extra cost over the XLS automatics?

    Any advise would be much appreciated.

    Many thanks,
    Peter (Newbie)
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 27th Oct 15, 10:56 AM
    • 26,058 Posts
    • 12,527 Thanks
    Cardew
    Welcome to the forum.

    I've based my rough calcs on worst case in winter for the largest heater in the lounge, currently a 3.4kw vs a 1.7kw rad/infra red.
    What is the reasoning for using that comparison?

    Given all electrical heating is 100% efficient, a 1.7kW heater of any type(including IR) will produce 50% of the heat of a 3.4kWh albeit cost a half of the running costs if using the same supply.

    Obviously a 3.4kW storage heater on economy 7 will produce twice the heat of a 1.7kW IR heater(using peak rate) for roughly the same cost.
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 27th Oct 15, 11:18 AM
    • 2,580 Posts
    • 1,398 Thanks
    matelodave
    I think you are doing your sums wrong - a 3.4kw storage heater can store up to around 24kwh of heat using off peak electricity when it's fully charged which is released thoughout the day.


    This would be equivalent to your 1.7kw heater using either standard or peak rate electricity being on for over 14 hours to give the same amount of heat which as you've already pointed out would cost significantly more than running a storage heater.


    You need to do proper heat calculations to see how much heat you'd need to raise & maintain your desired inside temperature and you may find that 1.7kw isn't enough. Too small a heater will flog away all the time as the thermostat won't switch off and you'll still be cold - so do your sums first before jumping in.


    Bear in mind that a storage heater will keep the place warm most of the time whereas turning a rad on & off has to raise the temperature from cold every morning and evening so would probably need to be a bit bigger to get the room up to temperature in a reasonable amount of time
    Last edited by matelodave; 27-10-2015 at 11:28 AM.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 27th Oct 15, 1:31 PM
    • 6,206 Posts
    • 4,697 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    What does make a difference is when you add in the cost of running the Pulsacoil
    Welcome to the forum.

    Pulsacoil, is in fact a thermal store not an immersion heater [hot water that never changes] the plate heat exchanger and pump then transfers heat to cold tap water. There are more layers of complexity and more opportunities for failure and in general in my opinion an unnecessarily complex system. Haverland is simply the very expensive [£500 for a 2kW] aesthetic end of a panel heater. The XLS auto is a perfectly adequate replacement for an XLS manual but one for which you will never make an economic return. The Quantum is an excellent system with better heat retention in each individual can but really only makes an economic return when its a full central control system in conjunction with a Quantum water heater.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • amtrakuk
    • By amtrakuk 4th Nov 15, 10:47 PM
    • 609 Posts
    • 208 Thanks
    amtrakuk
    Easy, Get a cheap convection heater from Argos - with exception of heap pumps which are REALLY expensive, a 2kW heater will produce 2kW of heat. From experience a halogen one is great if your within its beam otherwise its cold. A radiator is great if your heating the room for a longer period (2hrs plus). A convection heater is more suitable for the "on demand" lifestyle as it will heat the air in your room quickly. Just make sure whatever heater you use has a thermostat
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 5th Nov 15, 8:30 AM
    • 26,058 Posts
    • 12,527 Thanks
    Cardew
    Easy, Get a cheap convection heater from Argos - with exception of heap pumps which are REALLY expensive, a 2kW heater will produce 2kW of heat. From experience a halogen one is great if your within its beam otherwise its cold. A radiator is great if your heating the room for a longer period (2hrs plus). A convection heater is more suitable for the "on demand" lifestyle as it will heat the air in your room quickly. Just make sure whatever heater you use has a thermostat
    Originally posted by amtrakuk

    Agreed.


    Just in case anyone thinks that a heat pump defies the laws of physics, a heat pump is not a 'heater'. It is a device for extracting heat from outside the property and transferring into the property.
    Last edited by Cardew; 05-11-2015 at 9:12 AM.
    • Spinneyman
    • By Spinneyman 17th Oct 16, 1:52 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Spinneyman
    Hi, I'm new to the site. Not sure if this is still a live thread, but if so would appreciate any thoughts on my conundrum. We have a barn, approx 90 mtrs2 and a vaulted ceiling 4mtrs at its highest point. We've used it as a 'second home' mainly in the summer, but are now going to try to set it up as a holiday let. It has a woodburner (12kw) and a number of oil filled rads. This is OK for part of the year but not sufficient for cooler times. So will keep the woodburner and ditch the rads. But replace with what?

    My current thoughts are radiant heat rather than convection. Maybe an infrared in the shower room?

    But dont know how to heat the main room so guests are happy. Ceiling is now insulated and clad (rock wool). Two end gables are not outside walls. But the other two are outside walls and non insulated stud partition. We have gas in the main house but i'm guessing it would be very expensive to extend it? Considering radiant heaters, but best buys appear to be only in the states. Also considering IR rads, or maybe a mix of all?
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