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SW Trains - caught without ticket
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# 21
jessiejane1986
Old 04-03-2012, 9:29 PM
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The questions in the pad went over about 3 pages and I signed the 3rd near the top, maybe under 1 question, so it wasn't just my signature on the page. It was just a small pocket notepad, I've seen the forms they usually have people fill in as I walk past so I imagined it really was just a warning and that I had a lucky escape.

There wasn't anything written under my signature when I left him though, but there was space on the page. I think he did draw a line on the pad after someone else's name/address then start writing my questions/answers down...but again being 4 months ago I can't remember 100%.

It doesn't say the word "understand" on the paper, no. Is that a good or bad thing?
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# 22
yorkie2
Old 04-03-2012, 9:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessiejane1986 View Post
I did have money for a paper ticket, I only had a 5 note in cash but it was due to running for the train that I didn't buy a ticket.
It is still unclear to me whether or not you actually paid for the journey you made or not? Is the fare still unpaid?
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# 23
jessiejane1986
Old 04-03-2012, 9:52 PM
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Originally Posted by vax2002 View Post
Then what you signed can not be used in evidence if you signed at the top and information was written below your signature, thought they had to be some !!!! up somewhere.
This form they have sent , does it have the word "understand" on it in some form of declaration
No it doesn't have that written anywhere on the letter, is that good or bad?

I think he drew a line under someone else's details then started to question me. It was a small pocket notepad, and my questions/answers went over 3 pages. I signed the top of the 3rd page, possibly under one question, it wasn't just my signature on that page. When I left there was nothing else written underneath my signature.

The letter states 'a person giving the above name & address was questioned by a member of rail staff about an incident that occurred whilst on stagecoach'. It doesn't state what the offence was, obviously I know but does it matter?
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# 24
jessiejane1986
Old 04-03-2012, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by yorkie2 View Post
It is still unclear to me whether or not you actually paid for the journey you made or not? Is the fare still unpaid?
Ah no. I didn't pay for it. That's going to look really bad isn't it.
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# 25
Livingthedream
Old 04-03-2012, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jessiejane1986 View Post
That's going to look really bad isn't it.
Have you ever had a penalty fare before or is the first time you've been in trouble with TfL. If it's a first offence, then the groveling letter is your best way forward, might cost you but it will save you the hassle of court and possible criminal record.
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# 26
newfoundglory
Old 04-03-2012, 10:09 PM
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The best thing you can do with ANY ticket inspector (in any case) is:
1. just walk away
2. if you can't walk away (eg, police) then
3. say nothing
4. say nothing
5. say nothing
6. repeat from point 1

If you were suspected of committing an offence - under PACE you have to be given a caution "you do not have to say anything, but if you do not mention when questioned.. etc", and this would have to be recoreded in the little book - otherwise evidence from questioning could be inadmissible in court.

Did you receive a caution, as described above?

It would seem to be impossible for you to be prosecuted for fare evasion with intent to avoid payment, as if you touched in this would have been recorded on your oystercard and the central database.

Could be prosecuted for byelaw offences

Last edited by newfoundglory; 04-03-2012 at 10:13 PM.
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# 27
jessiejane1986
Old 04-03-2012, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfoundglory View Post
The best thing you can do with any ticket inspector (in any case) is:
1. just walk away
2. if you can't walk away (eg, police) then
3. say nothing
4. say nothing
5. say nothing
6. repeat from point 1

Technically, if you were suspected of committing an offence - under you have to be given a caution "you do not have to say anything, but if you do not mention.. etc", and this would have to be recoreded in the little book - otherwise evidence from questioning could be inadmissible in court.

Did you receive a caution, as described above?

It would seem to be impossible for you to be prosecuted for fare evasion with intent to avoid payment, as if you touched in this would have been recorded on your oystercard and the central database.
Can I ask for their record of the offence? As it was 4 months ago now I can't remember if I was cautioned, I think not though as he did say to me it was just a warning and didn't show a badge.

I didn't touch in, I was going to top up and tap out but afterwards I felt sick and wanted to just go home. My friend persuaded me to go to work rather than home to work but I never actually paid for the journey, which I didn't even realise until Yorkie just asked me.
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# 28
newfoundglory
Old 04-03-2012, 10:18 PM
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You should remember if you were cautioned, as you should have been asked if you understood it?
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# 29
Stigy
Old 04-03-2012, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfoundglory View Post
The best thing you can do with ANY ticket inspector (in any case) is:
1. just walk away
2. if you can't walk away (eg, police) then
3. say nothing
4. say nothing
5. say nothing
6. repeat from point 1

If you were suspected of committing an offence - under PACE you have to be given a caution "you do not have to say anything, but if you do not mention when questioned.. etc", and this would have to be recoreded in the little book - otherwise evidence from questioning could be inadmissible in court.

Did you receive a caution, as described above?

It would seem to be impossible for you to be prosecuted for fare evasion with intent to avoid payment, as if you touched in this would have been recorded on your oystercard and the central database.

Could be prosecuted for byelaw offences
You don't HAVE to be cautioned at all, for a prosecution to go ahead. Not all staff are PACE trained.

You are right in what you say, but if you try to walk away without giving your name and address, that could be seen as refusing to provide your name and address (obviously), and that being the case, rail staff do have a power of detention under S.5(2) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, until the offender can be brought before reasonable justice (the Police). The fact that staff don't use this power is because of their company, not the lawfulness of such action. Once you have supplied your name and address, you can walk off and that is your right.

Also, notes dont have to be signed to be used as evidence.

Last edited by Stigy; 04-03-2012 at 10:23 PM.
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# 30
jessiejane1986
Old 04-03-2012, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfoundglory View Post
You should remember if you were cautioned, as you should have been asked if you understood it?
I really don't remember, it was a while ago. I think I wasn't cautioned though, as I also wasn't shown a badge and I thought the 2 needed to be done together. But I can't remember as it honestly did stress me out and worry/upset me for days afterwards. All of that is back now. I know not really relevant but I have depression and the worry of getting convicted & losing my job is making is making it worse, do you think I should mention that in my reply to see if they'll allow it to settle out of court or do you think they will look at this as almost emotional blackmail?
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# 31
jessiejane1986
Old 04-03-2012, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Livingthedream View Post
Have you ever had a penalty fare before or is the first time you've been in trouble with TfL. If it's a first offence, then the groveling letter is your best way forward, might cost you but it will save you the hassle of court and possible criminal record.
I can only send 1 message every hour so cannot respond but that's fine. Thank you.
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# 32
newfoundglory
Old 04-03-2012, 10:29 PM
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Doesn't change the advice though - best thing to do is turn around and walk away from railway staff. Saying nothing in the process.

OP if you have not received a caution in this case then you should go immediately to a good solicitor, who will put an end to this for you. Make no communication at all with cr*p west trains.
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# 33
Stigy
Old 04-03-2012, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfoundglory View Post
Doesn't change the advice though - best thing to do is turn around and walk away from railway staff. Saying nothing in the process.

OP if you have not received a caution in this case then you should go immediately to a good solicitor, who will put an end to this for you. Make no communication at all with cr*p west trains.
As I said, no caution is necessary, as long as all the facts are in the member of staff's report. By all means advise to contact a solicitor, but making no further communication is a bad move.
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# 34
jessiejane1986
Old 04-03-2012, 10:43 PM
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I will respond as I know ignoring things makes it so much worse eventually. Can I get a copy of their report? Or should I just send an apologetic letter and offer to pay the costs etc as suggested above?
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# 35
newfoundglory
Old 04-03-2012, 10:57 PM
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Basically you were probably caught by railway staff who were PACE trained, but ignored PACE rules and caused you to likely incriminate yourself.

Get a solicitor to respond to the letter on your behalf.

Last edited by newfoundglory; 04-03-2012 at 11:00 PM.
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# 36
Stigy
Old 04-03-2012, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jessiejane1986 View Post
I will respond as I know ignoring things makes it so much worse eventually. Can I get a copy of their report? Or should I just send an apologetic letter and offer to pay the costs etc as suggested above?
You'll only see the report if a summons is issued. Often the cheapest way out is a settlement, as has been suggested already. If it's a Byelaw charge, it's a Strict Liability offence, which basically means no intention to avoid payment needs to be proved by the TOC, therefore wining at court would require some significant luck or a loophole!

Best advice I can offer is to not listen to certain other drivel
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# 37
vax2002
Old 04-03-2012, 11:01 PM
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My ten pence, you could receive a criminal record that could effect your employment, fill in nothing until you have sought legal advice, I know what the solicitor will tell you to do with the incriminate yourself form, but you will be better hearing from them.
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# 38
newfoundglory
Old 04-03-2012, 11:06 PM
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Stigy probably works for the railways - so best ignored - all the railway wants is your . Its not about fare evasion, its all about extra profit for the train operator. Why else would they be wasting time with this, after you had already touched in? You would have paid for the journey either way.

The whole system is setup so the commuter gets screwed.

(i'm anti-railway by the way, and even more anti-SWT)

And another rule: NEVER sign anything.

Last edited by newfoundglory; 04-03-2012 at 11:09 PM.
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# 39
s b
Old 04-03-2012, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfoundglory View Post
Stigy probably works for the railways - all the railway wants is your . Its not about fare evasion, its all about extra profit for the train operator. Why else would they be wasting time with this, after you had already touched in? You would have paid for the journey either way.

The whole system is setup so the commuter gets screwed.

(i'm anti-railway by the way, and even more anti-SWT)

And another rule: NEVER sign anything.
original post says they didnt tag in because they had no credit
so you are saying its fine to defraud a railway company?
i dont come on this forum to read about things like this i come on to money save people
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# 40
Livingthedream
Old 04-03-2012, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by vax2002 View Post
I know what the solicitor will tell you to do with the incriminate yourself form, but you will be better hearing from them.
One would think the solicitor would fill in the form in a way that would hopefully ensure a settlement out of court, however, that will cost you extra mony and isn't guaranteed.
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