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Holiday entitlement and bank holidays dispute
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# 1
twmc
Old 02-03-2012, 12:21 AM
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Default Holiday entitlement and bank holidays dispute

Hi there,

I've got a query regarding holiday entitlement.

Background:

I work full time, 5 days a week at a company to which I have recently handed in my notice. I will be leaving work on the 31st March. I checked how much annual leave I was due for this period on the businessdirect holiday entitlement calculator. It told me that I was entitled to 7.0 days, including bank holidays. This is based on the 28 day statutory minimum requirement and having consulted ACAS's literature (and speaking to them on the phone), I can see that this is calculated like this:

(A x B) - C

Where A is the amount of leave due over the couse of the year
B is the amount of the year I am working for
and C is the amount of leave already taken

A = 28
B = (91/365)
C = irrelevant for the purposes of simplicity - I'm just interested in the total leave due for the period.

Total = 6.98 (rounded to 7 days including bank holidays)


Dispute:
Now, the dispute comes from the fact that my employer closes the office for bank holidays. There is nobody in and the doors are locked. As such, these days of annual leave are assigned for us. They work on a standard basis of 20 days annual leave to take when you want and 8 days bank holiday.

They therefore argue that, to calculate my leave due for the period 1 Jan - 31 March, they simply consider the 20 days into the equation and add that to any bank holidays which happen to fall within my employment period. In other words:

A = 20
B = (91/365)

Total = 4.99 (rounded to 5 days excluding bank holidays)


The problem:
The problem is that within my employment period, there is only 1 bank holiday (Jan 2nd). Therefore, while I argue that I'm entitled to 7 days including bank holidays, they argue that - once bank holidays are included - I'm only entitled to 6.

The problem is that I've been working to the former and have taken 7 days leave including the bank holiday. Now they are trying to deduct a days wages from me because they calculate it differently.

As mentioned, I've spoken to ACAS directly about this and they fully support me. They directed me to the specific calculation and rules within their literature* which I have forwarded on to my employers.

However, my employers are adamant that, because they close the office fully and are not rotating shifts on bank holidays (like a shop or hotel), these days are not to be factored in to the calculation. I counter that the bank holidays are part of the minimum and, as I'm missing out on the majority of them, this skews the result below the minimum leave provision. They return by saying that the leaving dates were my choice and it's not their fault.

Please help! Has anyone encountered this situation before?

Many thanks.




* Page 9 (as in the corner of the page rather than on the pdf document). Google ACAS "holidays and holiday pay" (I can't post links as a new member).

Last edited by twmc; 02-03-2012 at 12:24 AM. Reason: typo
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# 2
LadyMissA
Old 02-03-2012, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twmc View Post
Hi there,

I've got a query regarding holiday entitlement.

Background:

I work full time, 5 days a week at a company to which I have recently handed in my notice. I will be leaving work on the 31st March. I checked how much annual leave I was due for this period on the businessdirect holiday entitlement calculator. It told me that I was entitled to 7.0 days, including bank holidays. This is based on the 28 day statutory minimum requirement and having consulted ACAS's literature (and speaking to them on the phone), I can see that this is calculated like this:

(A x B) - C

Where A is the amount of leave due over the couse of the year
B is the amount of the year I am working for
and C is the amount of leave already taken

A = 28
B = (91/365)
C = irrelevant for the purposes of simplicity - I'm just interested in the total leave due for the period.

Total = 6.98 (rounded to 7 days including bank holidays)


Dispute:
Now, the dispute comes from the fact that my employer closes the office for bank holidays. There is nobody in and the doors are locked. As such, these days of annual leave are assigned for us. They work on a standard basis of 20 days annual leave to take when you want and 8 days bank holiday.

They therefore argue that, to calculate my leave due for the period 1 Jan - 31 March, they simply consider the 20 days into the equation and add that to any bank holidays which happen to fall within my employment period. In other words:

A = 20
B = (91/365)

Total = 4.99 (rounded to 5 days excluding bank holidays)


The problem:
The problem is that within my employment period, there is only 1 bank holiday (Jan 2nd). Therefore, while I argue that I'm entitled to 7 days including bank holidays, they argue that - once bank holidays are included - I'm only entitled to 6.

The problem is that I've been working to the former and have taken 7 days leave including the bank holiday. Now they are trying to deduct a days wages from me because they calculate it differently.

As mentioned, I've spoken to ACAS directly about this and they fully support me. They directed me to the specific calculation and rules within their literature* which I have forwarded on to my employers.

However, my employers are adamant that, because they close the office fully and are not rotating shifts on bank holidays (like a shop or hotel), these days are not to be factored in to the calculation. I counter that the bank holidays are part of the minimum and, as I'm missing out on the majority of them, this skews the result below the minimum leave provision. They return by saying that the leaving dates were my choice and it's not their fault.

Please help! Has anyone encountered this situation before?

Many thanks.




* Page 9 (as in the corner of the page rather than on the pdf document). Google ACAS "holidays and holiday pay" (I can't post links as a new member).
You have already been paid for Jan the 2nd yes? When does the company holiday year start and where you with the company at the begining of the holiday year? Also not including BH's how much holiday have you taken this holiday year so far?

Last edited by LadyMissA; 02-03-2012 at 12:31 AM.
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# 3
twmc
Old 02-03-2012, 12:35 AM
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Yes, that is correct. The holiday year starts on Jan 1st (i.e. it runs according to the calendar year). I have been with the company for a number of years so, yes, I was there for the beginning of this period. Not including BHs I have taken 6 days annual leave (as I was working to the 7 days including BHs).
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# 4
Notmyrealname
Old 02-03-2012, 12:54 AM
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You will be entitled to one quarter of the annual holiday entitlement or 7 days as you will have worked 3 months which is quarter of a year by the time you finish.

You took 7 days inc bank holidays so you've had what you should have, nothing more, nothing less. They must be stupid.

Instead of doing calculations like you have done, simply point out that you will have worked for 3 months which is 1/4 of the year and therefore you're entitled to 1/4 of the legal minimum 28 days annual leave which is 7 days which you've had.
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# 5
LadyMissA
Old 02-03-2012, 1:19 AM
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I never really thought of BH's as part of the holiday entitlement till now as I have always been paid for them. I know now I was under paid when I left my last job
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# 6
KiKi
Old 02-03-2012, 12:40 PM
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You are correct.

However, many organisations do work on the basis (incorrectly) that if they close for BHs that you get your AL pro-ratad, and if you miss out on BHs, tough. And many of those organisations are never challenged on that, as they assume you will move into another full time role and therefore get the full BH entitlement anyway in your next job - but of course it doesn't work like that.

Use the ACAS and Directgov info to take to them - but yes, you should have the days you've calculated. Remind them that they CHOOSE to close on BHs. Your legal entitlement is 28 days per year, the employer can include BHs if they want to. By choosing to close on BHs they are making a choice about when you take your paid leave entitlement (which they are allowed to do). But they can't take it out of the pro rata equation because it suits them. It's about your total paid leave entitlement, not AL and BHs.

KiKi
' <-- See that? It's called an apostrophe. It does not mean "hey, look out, here comes an S".
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# 7
getmore4less
Old 02-03-2012, 1:25 PM
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This issue usualy arises because the holiday policies were drafted when the statutory holidays were much lower and the 20days+bH could be worked out like they way they do it.

Due to the incompetance of many managers and HR departments they don't bring their policies in line with legislation and get caught out when someones spots the issue.

Tell them their current policies are not consistant with current legislation you will have no option but to take it to an ET if they don't sort it out.

Have a good dig at then this should have been fixed Oct 2007. they have had over 4 years to get it right.
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# 8
twmc
Old 02-03-2012, 3:52 PM
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Thanks very much everyone for confirming my suspicions.

The further difficulty comes from the fact that I work in a small profession where everybody kind of knows each other. On the one hand, I don't want to rock the boat too much with my employers who will have to be in a position to recommend me to my next employer. But on the other hand, I cannot stand those employers who consistently low-ball and/or pressure employees into poor decisions because they've made a mistake and don't wish to admit it.

It's only a day's pay but, for me, it's the principle of the issue that matters. Having said that, if it means my name is mud for the next few years, do I really want to go to ET?
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# 9
paddedjohn
Old 02-03-2012, 8:19 PM
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you are entitled to 7 days, youve had 7 days so you neither owe a day or are owed a day.
Be Alert..........Britain needs lerts.
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# 10
twmc
Old 02-03-2012, 8:30 PM
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Thanks paddedjohn. Unfortuantely, they plan on deducting a day's wages from my final pay cheque.

Last edited by twmc; 02-03-2012 at 8:31 PM. Reason: spelling
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# 11
paddedjohn
Old 02-03-2012, 8:49 PM
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inform them that it would be an illegal stoppage from your wages, they cant just take money off you willy nilly.
Be Alert..........Britain needs lerts.
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# 12
KiKi
Old 02-03-2012, 9:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twmc View Post
It's only a day's pay but, for me, it's the principle of the issue that matters. Having said that, if it means my name is mud for the next few years, do I really want to go to ET?

Only you can decide that. I wouldn't do it if I thought it would create a bad reputation for me and that impacted my future prospects. I certainly wouldn't go to ET over a day's pay, but I'd write a formal letter explaining the law.

KiKi
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