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  • FIRST POST
    bernlyn
    water softner help in chosing and is this true
    • #1
    • 7th Feb 07, 5:33 AM
    water softner help in chosing and is this true 7th Feb 07 at 5:33 AM
    i have decided to get either a kinetico 2020c or a crown Twin Cylinder Non Electric water softner.

    1. HOWEVER when i phoned and enquired about the crown the sales person said that yes they were good and gave me the sales pitch. i then asked about the kinetico and she said that it was the best out of the 2. the price difference was crown £650 and kinetico £840 i said i wanted to get more quotes.

    2. the 2 company i phoned said that the crown was very good and was a good choice. when i asked about the kinetico she said right away that they werent very reliable. she then stated that the companies that sell the kinetico get bigger profits on selling the kinetico softners and they installed over 280 crowns last year and only had 4/5 faulty machines but the kinetico they had just over 40% returns on faulty machines.

    i also said that i cannt find any reviews on the crowns and she said that crown make other softners aswell such as Twin Tec, mini max, calmag, homesoft and a few others. is this true and how can i find this out. i have tried the net but cannt find anything to verify this.

    the price of the crown[£636] and the kinetico was £699 and compared to the first company there is a big price difference


    how would you decide which one to install.
Page 52
    • Doc N
    • By Doc N 29th May 17, 7:23 AM
    • 6,240 Posts
    • 19,153 Thanks
    Doc N
    Im favouring your recommended softener, Tapworks I'm guessing it's going to be more complicated with regards siting it and plumbing. Our garage is not intergrated but it does having plumbing as we considered siting the washing machine there. need to speak to my brother in law as he is a plumber and knows our system and I seem to recall him saying something about being not straightforward.
    I can't ask him to install it as he's up to his eyes in work
    Originally posted by Bykerlass
    It's not so much whether the garage is integral or not, but whether the main water supply comes into the house that way (the rising main) - it's common enough with integral garages but less common where the garage is separate.

    The point is that the softener has to soften the water for the whole house (excluding the kitchen cold tap and any outside taps) so it usually has to be fitted near to where the supply enters the property. That might be under the sink, it might be in the garage, or it could be somewhere else. Your brother-in-law's doubtless right - but nothing's impossible in plumbing terms. Just expensive and maybe unsightly. Good luck!
    • SomeOne
    • By SomeOne 3rd Jun 17, 2:53 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    SomeOne
    I'm currently looking for a water softener with a high flow rate of around 50l/min .

    I've read through most of this thread and have narrowed it down to 4 potential choices, but i'm stuck on deciding which one to go for:

    Tapworks AD11 - Tablet Salt
    Monarch Midi - Tablet Salt
    Harvey's Crown 300 - Block Salt
    Harvey's Homewater - Tablet Salt

    I've noticed that a number of users rate the Tapworks and the Monarch which are half the price of the Harvey's ones. But reading up on them, both the Tapworks and Monarch appear to use substantially more salt per regeneration (over 1kg) whereas the Harvey's ones use less than 0.5kg.

    Unless i'm missing something then wouldn't the Harvey's ones work out cheaper in the longer run?

    Also what's to stop anyone putting salt tablets in a block salt only softener? At the end of the day presumably its the same salt but in a different shape?

    Edit: I have unmetered water so am less concerned about water usage for regeneration.
    Last edited by SomeOne; 03-06-2017 at 3:15 PM. Reason: Unmetered water
    ---------
    SomeOne
    • HP Source
    • By HP Source 3rd Jun 17, 6:42 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    HP Source
    How much salt is used per regeneration tells you nothing useful, I'm afraid. To make sense of the running costs you also need to know how much softened water a freshly regenerated tank of resin is capable of providing.

    I haven't looked up the figures but I suspect you'll find the figure for the Harvey's softener to be considerably lower than the others. If that's the case it will be regenerating more frequently.

    You also need to bear in mind the block salt tends to be substantially more expensive than tablet salt.
    • SomeOne
    • By SomeOne 3rd Jun 17, 8:07 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    SomeOne
    Thanks, I was starting to realise that may be a better comparison when I got to around page 40 something.

    I'm starting to veer towards the Tapworks, but I could just as easily choose the Monarch.

    May I ask which softener you have?
    ---------
    SomeOne
    • HP Source
    • By HP Source 4th Jun 17, 8:57 AM
    • 31 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    HP Source
    Mine is an Atlantis AT210. It was a factory refurbished unit with a one year guarantee which I got for the very reasonable figure of £200.

    The reason for choosing this one was twofold. Firstly I wanted a softener with one of the industry standard control valves as it's then much easier to get spares. The second was the it needed to be slim to fit into the space I had available.

    It's worked faultlessly for the year or so it's been fitted.
    • SomeOne
    • By SomeOne 4th Jun 17, 12:58 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    SomeOne
    Thanks that looks good too.

    I think i've decided to go with the Monarch as it has a higher flow rate and a longer parts guarantee than the tapworks.
    ---------
    SomeOne
    • peterpaz
    • By peterpaz 11th Jun 17, 7:24 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    peterpaz
    Hello

    I've read pretty much every comment on this thread and it's been extremely useful - so thanks to all contributors! (even the bickering was entertaining :-)

    I'm still a bit confused about the recommendations so I'd ideally like 2 or 3 of the best to choose from. I don't want any reps trying to shout about how good there's are... I need honest, basic non-biased suggestions / recommendations if thats ok.

    Here's my requirements:

    • I live in a 2/3 bedroom semi in North Yorkshire. 2 occupants.
    • I don't use a particularly large amount of water. (shower once a day, odd bath now and then, wash the car... pretty normal use I'd say).

    I have a Worcester Greenstar 37CDI Combi Boiler. (can this handle water from a water softener?)
    The combi is in a cupboard where the water supply tap is.
    I can comfortably accommodate a H65mm x D25mm x W40mm Unit. (or slightly larger if need be.)
    I want a Single cylinder Unit
    I want a metered model (I go away fairly often)
    I want to use (cheaper) granular salt
    I want it to be maintenance free (except me cleaning the salt tank out once in a while)
    • Would like very little control and as easy to understand and set-up as possible ( 'no-frills' control panel)
    • Lower end of the budget (don't need anything expensive/fancy)

    • Do I need to bypass the kitchen cold water tap? (I know very little about plumbing so can't get my head around how to do this as it'd be sited at the other end of the kitchen to the sink).

    • Can my outside tap(s) use water softener water? (would like to use the hosepipe for washing the car and not having limescale watermarks ideally).

    • Is water softener water good for an aquarium (eg: certain fish like soft water). This isn'y a deal breaker... just thought I'd ask.

    Sorry for the long list - but I'm hoping the more info I give will narrow down (and rule out) a lot of makes/models so I can get a small choice to choose one from.

    Many thanks
    Peter
    • Doc N
    • By Doc N 11th Jun 17, 7:37 PM
    • 6,240 Posts
    • 19,153 Thanks
    Doc N
    Hello

    I've read pretty much every comment on this thread and it's been extremely useful - so thanks to all contributors! (even the bickering was entertaining :-)

    I'm still a bit confused about the recommendations so I'd ideally like 2 or 3 of the best to choose from. I don't want any reps trying to shout about how good there's are... I need honest, basic non-biased suggestions / recommendations if thats ok.

    Here's my requirements:

    • I live in a 2/3 bedroom semi in North Yorkshire. 2 occupants.
    • I don't use a particularly large amount of water. (shower once a day, odd bath now and then, wash the car... pretty normal use I'd say).

    I have a Worcester Greenstar 37CDI Combi Boiler. (can this handle water from a water softener?)

    Best check this with Worcester Bosch

    The combi is in a cupboard where the water supply tap is.
    I can comfortably accommodate a H65mm x D25mm x W40mm Unit. (or slightly larger if need be.)
    I want a Single cylinder Unit
    I want a metered model (I go away fairly often)
    I want to use (cheaper) granular salt
    I want it to be maintenance free (except me cleaning the salt tank out once in a while)
    • Would like very little control and as easy to understand and set-up as possible ( 'no-frills' control panel)
    • Lower end of the budget (don't need anything expensive/fancy)

    I've recommended Tapworks models above as being particularly good value - I'd still say the same. One of the smaller models should suit.

    • Do I need to bypass the kitchen cold water tap? (I know very little about plumbing so can't get my head around how to do this as it'd be sited at the other end of the kitchen to the sink).

    Ideally, yes - softened water is high in sodium and not recommended for everyday drinking.

    • Can my outside tap(s) use water softener water? (would like to use the hosepipe for washing the car and not having limescale watermarks ideally).

    No reason why not - though it will increase your salt usage, particularly if you use it for the garden as well.

    • Is water softener water good for an aquarium (eg: certain fish like soft water). This isn'y a deal breaker... just thought I'd ask.

    I'd guess not - but that is just a guess. Best ask an expert on fish.

    Sorry for the long list - but I'm hoping the more info I give will narrow down (and rule out) a lot of makes/models so I can get a small choice to choose one from.

    Many thanks
    Peter
    Originally posted by peterpaz
    See above.
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 11th Jun 17, 7:41 PM
    • 7,376 Posts
    • 7,400 Thanks
    pogofish
    Hi,

    I'm a plumber and install loads of water softnenors.

    Depending on the size of the house, I always recommend the CalMag CalSoft Mini or the Monarch Ultimate Midi.

    Give me a shout if you have any questions.

    Thanks,

    Richard
    Originally posted by multiplumb
    Given your clear agreement to the rules on on touting for business and posting commercially here, I would say you just outed yourself as a really shifty piece of work who has no respect for your customers or any applicable rules!
    • Doc N
    • By Doc N 11th Jun 17, 7:46 PM
    • 6,240 Posts
    • 19,153 Thanks
    Doc N
    Given your clear agreement to the rules on on touting for business and posting commercially here, I would say you just outed yourself as a really shifty piece of work who has no respect for your customers or any applicable rules!
    Originally posted by pogofish
    I reported that as spam as soon as it appeared, but it takes a few reports to get rid of unwanted junk.

    Suggest others hit the spam button on multiplumb's post to get it removed.
    • peterpaz
    • By peterpaz 11th Jun 17, 8:02 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    peterpaz
    Is the Tapworks AD11 Water Softener metered?
    • Doc N
    • By Doc N 11th Jun 17, 8:08 PM
    • 6,240 Posts
    • 19,153 Thanks
    Doc N
    Is the Tapworks AD11 Water Softener metered?
    Originally posted by peterpaz
    It is: http://tapworks.co.uk/water-softener-ad11/

    Best bought on eBay for price, I think - several good sellers when I bought mine.

    I stress - I have nothing whatever to do with Tapworks. I was a happy Ecowater customer for many years until I discovered they were near-identical to Tapworks models sold at a fraction of the price.

    A few more owners in this thread who may feed back their views, good or bad.
    • SomeOne
    • By SomeOne 11th Jun 17, 8:30 PM
    • 137 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    SomeOne
    I think softened water is discouraged for garden use...

    https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=691



    See above.
    Originally posted by Doc N
    ---------
    SomeOne
    • Doc N
    • By Doc N 11th Jun 17, 8:34 PM
    • 6,240 Posts
    • 19,153 Thanks
    Doc N
    I think softened water is discouraged for garden use...

    https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=691
    Originally posted by SomeOne
    A very good point - high sodium. As well as increased costs.
    • opentoideas
    • By opentoideas 3rd Jul 17, 9:20 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    opentoideas
    help please?
    Hi There well thank you to all for a LOT of information!

    took a couple of days to get through it all but thanks to all of the info i have just plumbed in my first water softener and i hope you may help me with a couple of queries.

    i have been using reverse osmosis for years for my aquarium so am already familiar with many of the chemical aspects of ion exchange resins and testing to ensure quality is maintained but it seems that most just work with "feel" of the water or perhaps a tablet test. i presume that the TDS meter i have will not tell me anything usefull as i am assuming that the total dissolved solids would remain unchanged or am i wrong in this assumption?

    for the moment i have picked up a used Lakeside 300 with a reasonably genuine history and although its another over priced twin tank

    as i got it essentially for nothing, i figured it was worth a punt to see if it works

    so far i have got it plumbed in and i think i have managed to manually trigger regeneration on both tanks but i need to test the water to see if it is working.

    also i presume i will need to calibrate it to my water hardness - i have found what i think is a reversible brine inlet and presumably given the markings 300g or 350g salt per regen depending on which way up it is attached but i am guessing.

    i will contact the manufacturer in the morning but suspect from the comments here that they may not be forthcoming.

    is anyone familiar with this models calibration and setup that may be able to help?

    also what types of water tests are best to check operation?

    given how little salt is in contact with the water i am guessing it will take a few days for the brine to become fully saturated and a true regeneration to happen but any advice would be appreciated

    thanks in advance

    Dave
    • opentoideas
    • By opentoideas 4th Jul 17, 3:30 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    opentoideas
    well i was in Screwfix and they had a test kit so the results are that the softener is working so thats a result

    numbers for anyone interested were :

    TDS - 300ppm (continuity type TDS meter i already have) same before and after the softener which was what i expected.

    the hardness test kit tablets are branded Palintest and before the treatment by the softener took 6 tablets for the colour change which is 230ppm according to the scale on the box.

    with the softener in line the colour change was instant and too small an amount to measure. they call 1-2 tablets soft and 3 is the first measure at 100ppm and even when rinsing the bottle i could not get the colour to change back even when the solution was diluted to at least 100:1 whereas a single drop of untreated water brought it back to red so within the limits of this kit it certainly seems that the softener is working

    just for my own interest if i can figure out my usage and time between regenerations it would be fun to see if there is a detectable change between the product water at the point just before it triggers the regeneration but i suspect if its working well that it may not be detectable with this kit even if there is a change.

    anyway this is more my geeky nature than anything meaningful. as a yes/no test the softener is doing its job.
    Last edited by opentoideas; 04-07-2017 at 6:18 PM.
    • endurium
    • By endurium 19th Jul 17, 2:15 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    endurium
    I've read through this thread as I'm in the market for a water softener and have had a few water softener suppliers/specialists visit and recommend. After researching and asking questions, I've narrowed my choices down to either a Harveys M2 Minimax or a Hague Maximizer 410. The former is a twin tank non-electric and the latter a single tank that needs power supplied, which will add about £60 to the installation cost, so that's a minus for the Hague. The Harveys is a twin-tank which means uninterrupted soft water, unlike the Hague that will stop delivering soft water during regeneration (but scheduled for middle of the night/2am).

    So far it seems that the Harveys M2 is the better bet as it's 200 quid cheaper and doesn't require electrics, but according to the specs, the amount of softened water delivered per regeneration is 400 litres, versus over 1000 litres for the Hague, more than double the Harveys so it's salt consumption would be far less, so much so that over a 10 year operating life, the Hague would work out cheaper than the Harveys.

    Also, because the Harveys is non-electric it relies on water pressure to regenerate which would mean that whilst it's a twin-tank, only one tank would be working during regeneration (which could happen whilst having a shower for example) and thus delivering half the flow of softened water.

    So everything seems to point to the Hague as the best choice. But the one thing that's crucial is a reliable softener and as far as I can see, the Harveys is more reliable and has plenty of customers/users who attest to that. If the softener is unreliable or affects the water flow, my missus will just get rid of it and we'll be back to hard water. Do water softeners affect the flow? Our hot water system is a mains-fed combi boiler in the loft.

    Is there anything I've overlooked that would help make a clearer and better informed decision?

    I don't want a "contract-type" softener as I want to be able to call on someone to fix it asap and I don't know any plumbers in my area who are water softener experts. Also, the contract softeners have very short warranties.

    Any advice or feedback much appreciated
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