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  • cavework
    • #2
    • 13th Dec 11, 5:42 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Dec 11, 5:42 PM
    The COP insurance and any set up fees can be paid for from the 'donors' money not from the person who applies and is granted COP.
    Yearly insurance should be paid from the 'donors' finances , not covered by the representative.
    Hope this makes sense
    Responsibility for paying the fees

    The application and appeal fees are payable by the person making the application or appeal – however, the Court may decide that the applicant can recover the fee from the person it is about, or from someone else.
    The hearing fee is payable by the person making the application – but the court may decide the applicant can get the money back from the person the application is about, or from someone else. If the hearing relates to an appeal, it is payable by the person making the appeal.
    Copy of document fees are payable by whoever is requesting the copies.
    Last edited by cavework; 13-12-2011 at 5:53 PM.
  • John_Pierpoint
    • #3
    • 13th Dec 11, 6:29 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Dec 11, 6:29 PM
    Here we go: What is COP insurance? [Ah I've remembered "Court of Protection" for those of us who don't speak acronym]

    I had the misfortune to need Lasting Power of Attorney in summer 2008 for a relative who seemed to have been struck down by a stroke.
    Well it was a new concept then - but what a bureaucratic shambles - cost 1,000's and the "stroke sufferer" had died two months later, while the bureaucrats were still raising footling and unintelligible queries about the 26 pages of forms and instructions that had been submitted by the "stroke sufferer's" solicitor.
    [I believe there have been improvements in the procedures since than BUT really every citizen in the country needs to do this NOW, if you leave it until you need it expect to get into a tangle.]

    Me? My late mum and I still have the old style "Enduring Power of Attorney" - cost 0.75 per person for the 4 page form. In the case of my mother, I bought it on the way to the hospital and had it counter signed by one of the nurses.

    I have to trust my nearest and dearest not to rob me blind, if/when I go "Deolali" [doo-laly], but I doubt that this new LPA will do much to prevent the fraudsters - if making new laws cured crime our prisons would be empty.
    Last edited by John_Pierpoint; 13-12-2011 at 6:39 PM.
  • Veryannoyed
    • #4
    • 13th Dec 11, 6:47 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Dec 11, 6:47 PM
    I think it's vital that any guide specifically addresses the limitations on what the attorney can do with the donor's money and that this is spelled out clearly so that it cannot be either mistakenly or deliberately misinterpreted.

    For instance, an attorney started forwarding cheques for 3,000 a time to family members saying that this was permitted under inland revenue rules before the end of a tax year. Bogus engagements were also considered as an excuse to give a large cash present. When I pointed out that only small 'gifts' ie 25 such as would be given on a birthday or for Christmas were allowed, I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. In the end I found the whole thing so disgusting that I went to see a solicitor who confirmed this rule about only small gifts was on the attorney forms. They had to retrieve all the money they had paid out and put it back into the donor's bank account.

    I feel that people will exploit the rules if they think they can get away with it and they need to know about this small gifts rule.
  • Trebor16
    • #5
    • 13th Dec 11, 6:56 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Dec 11, 6:56 PM
    I think the biggest problem people will have with powers of attorney is when they have to be registered with the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) and they get involved. I firmly believe that most problems that attorneys and deputies will have is as a result of their interference.
  • cavework
    • #6
    • 13th Dec 11, 8:34 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Dec 11, 8:34 PM
    I now have LPA for Mum and COP for Dad. Dad had a sudden stroke that left him mentally incapaciitated.
    Until then my parents only had a will.
    We had never thought about the process you had to undertake when one elderly person is suddenly no longer in a position to make their own decisions about .. TBH anything , that is COP and then also having to look after the interests of the other elderly partner who still had full mental capacity .. the LPA..
    It is a long winded , costly affair with brick walls that are set up, even in simple straightforward situations, where the government departments responsible can make money .
    Insurance for what?
    Can anyone find me a claim that paid out for this insurance?
  • John_Pierpoint
    • #7
    • 13th Dec 11, 11:57 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Dec 11, 11:57 PM
    I think it's vital that any guide specifically addresses the limitations on what the attorney can do with the donor's money and that this is spelled out clearly so that it cannot be either mistakenly or deliberately misinterpreted.

    For instance, an attorney started forwarding cheques for 3,000 a time to family members saying that this was permitted under inland revenue rules before the end of a tax year.
    Originally posted by Veryannoyed
    Sounds like the attorney(ies) saw him/her/themselves trying to (ehm) "minimise" approaching Inheritance tax (IHT) rather than rob the donor.

    This rather demonstrates the problems of legislating to create "moral" behaviour. Compulsory auditing of accounts would be the effective way of identifying such legal "transgressions".

    My accounting was not made easy by some public employees refusing to give receipts. An organisation that handles cash without a cash register, will sooner or later create a case of fraud.
    Last edited by John_Pierpoint; 14-12-2011 at 12:08 AM.
  • Moneysaversbandc
    • #8
    • 14th Dec 11, 11:38 AM
    • #8
    • 14th Dec 11, 11:38 AM
    I SORTED OUT MY LASTING (ENDURING) POWER OF ATTORNEY FORM YEARS AGO, ENSURING THAT MY DAUGHTER COULD DEAL WITH MY AFFAIRS WHEN I LOSE THE PLOT. THERE WAS NO FEE INVOLVED, THE FORM WAS DULY SIGNED AND WITNESSED AND THE FORM IS FILED AWAY WITH MY WILL.

    WHAT I NEED TO KNOW IS WHETHER THIS STILL STANDS LEGALLY SINCE THE CHANGE OF FORMAT OF LPAs. CAN ANYBODY HELP?
  • kazlau
    • #9
    • 14th Dec 11, 11:45 AM
    • #9
    • 14th Dec 11, 11:45 AM
    How would other MSE'ers suggest going about having this discussion with my 77 year old mother? She can be as sharp as a tack but I worry about the implecations if she suffers a deterioration. After my Gran died and we experienced the problems accessing her accounts etc my mum made me a joint account holder for her banking accounts. She holds all the cheque books and cash cards but feels that this is a safety net if she passes away or becomes incapacitated because I will be able to access her accounts as joint signatory. Would this be sufficient or do you think we should get an LPA? We are in Scotland if that makes any difference.
  • deepdaleducky
    Hi, I just thought Id add to the discussion by mentioning that though everyone is mentioning the financial power of attorney it can be even more important to have the health and welfare one for your relative .

    I was told just recently that without it though I was consulted by ' the team' as our social worker terms it, social services would have a say and a major one in where my mum would live. They consider her best interests. I agreed to mum going short term into a rest home and now am being blocked when I want to bring her home. I am making arrangements to accomodate her by giving up work and putting in a downstairs toilet and central heating at mums. We were able to get the POA signed but there is a 5 week waiting period for objections to be lodged , plus 3 weeks for registration. By then we will have paid out 7000 in care home fees as mum is self funding. I live in dread of someone objecting. So it is a good idea to do both health and welfare and financial power of attorneys at the same time
  • MSE Jenny
    I SORTED OUT MY LASTING (ENDURING) POWER OF ATTORNEY FORM YEARS AGO, ENSURING THAT MY DAUGHTER COULD DEAL WITH MY AFFAIRS WHEN I LOSE THE PLOT. THERE WAS NO FEE INVOLVED, THE FORM WAS DULY SIGNED AND WITNESSED AND THE FORM IS FILED AWAY WITH MY WILL.

    WHAT I NEED TO KNOW IS WHETHER THIS STILL STANDS LEGALLY SINCE THE CHANGE OF FORMAT OF LPAs. CAN ANYBODY HELP?
    Originally posted by Moneysaversbandc
    Hi Moneysaversbandc

    An Enduring Power of Attorney (EPA) set up before 1 October 2007 will still be valid, whether or not it has been registered. They can be used before the person loses capacity, but must be registered when they lose capacity. Registration costs 130. For more info, see the Government's guide to EPAs.
  • Nick A
    I have just registered both finance and health & welfare lasting power of attorneys with the Office of the Public Guardian for my Dad. The process was straightforward but slow because the OPG seem to be backed up with applications. My question is what now? Who do I have to inform and how? I have contacted my Dad's bank who are (slowly!) processing the paperwork, but do I need to tell anyone else e.g. utilities, council, NHS, private pension etc? Fortunately my Dad is still 'with it' and so I don't need to make any decisions for him just yet but he is living in a nursing home and my Mum is finding it hard to manage the household so I need to be able to help her deal with bills and officialdom in general.
  • John_Pierpoint
    How would other MSE'ers suggest going about having this discussion with my 77 year old mother? She can be as sharp as a tack but I worry about the implecations if she suffers a deterioration. After my Gran died and we experienced the problems accessing her accounts etc my mum made me a joint account holder for her banking accounts. She holds all the cheque books and cash cards but feels that this is a safety net if she passes away or becomes incapacitated because I will be able to access her accounts as joint signatory. Would this be sufficient or do you think we should get an LPA? We are in Scotland if that makes any difference.
    Originally posted by kazlau
    Even though I had invested 0.75 in obtaining Enduring Power of Attorney, I managed with an arrangement similar to yours for my mother's remaining 4 years, because the power of attorney caused more problems than it solved for every day transactions.

    The biggest problem is the deteriorating signature and you just never know when it will be needed and you will also get telephone calls saying "I must speak with the account holder (now)".

    There is also the warning above of public officials getting in on the act and deciding what is best for your relative - there is no problem they cannot solve by spending some one else's money.

    The LPA is a bit of a make work exercise and as the fuss from the Altzheimer's Society demonstrates the elderly incompetent are a target for "fraudsters"; a situation that a public official and a piece of paper will do little to correct.

    Alzheimer's Society financial abuse worry for sufferers[IMG]chrome://searchshield/content/safe.gif[/IMG][IMG]chrome://searchshield/content/vrsn-secured-lsfo.gif[/IMG]


    BBC News - 32 minutes ago
    The Alzheimer's Society estimates that victims have collectively lost 5m and is calling for better protection for people with the condition. ...
    Con artists cheats 5m out of dementia sufferers in Wales‎ WalesOnline
    People with dementia being conned out of 100million‎ Mirror.co.uk
    Dementia patients swindled out of 100m by con artists and rogue ...‎ Daily Mail
    The Press Association - Lancashire Evening Post
    all 226 news articles

    Moneysavingexpert.com founder Martin Lewis said the true figure for money lost was likely to be much higher as financial abuse was often not reported.

    [Reported? Who to? joke?]

    LPA is a bit like house insurance - the odds are you won't have the house burn down but what would you do if it did.
    Last edited by John_Pierpoint; 14-12-2011 at 2:19 PM.
  • covlass
    My DD will be 16 next year she has Autism & SLD so when would I sort this out when she is 16 or 18? And do I have to have a solicitor involved? Sorry so many questions but I am finding it difficult to get my head around.
    Many Thanks
    " I would not change you for the world, but I would change the world for you"
    Proud to be parent of a child with Autism

    When I see your face there's not a thing that I would change 'cause your amazing just the way you are
  • ivorycoaster
    All very well but where is the advice for Scotland??
  • Errata
    One in three of us will die with dementia.
    I think this phrase needs to be re-thought and clarifield. Clearly one in three of all the people who die in the UK each and every year do not have dementia.
    .....................I'm smiling because I have no idea what's going on ...
  • traffic
    What Martin is saying here is absolutely essential for anyone whose parents or partner is getting older and maybe a bit forgetful. Just about a year ago my mother was judged not to have the mental capacity to manage her own affairs due to advancing dementia.
    My mother has always been very independent and would not let anybody "interfere" with her affairs, and therefore would not let me arrange power of attorney. After she was deemed incapable and had to go into a nursing home I had to consult a solicitor about becoming a Deputy under the Court of Protection. What a performance that was, taking nine months and costing (my Mum) 1,400. On top of that there was a registration payment of 100 and an annual insurance premium of about 200.
    The regulation of a Deputy is extremely tight, I have just had an inspection of the accounts of Mum's money and what has been done with it, and they even visited the home where she is and inspected her room, the care plans and even tried to speak to my Mum who told the inspector to "b****r off" which is what she tells most people these days.
    So to sum up, if you think someone near to you may be drifting into problems get power of attorney even if you have to force the issue. The alternative is a minefield so please learn from my experience.
    Dementia is much harder on the loved ones than on the sufferer.
  • cornerstone13
    My sister and I have set up both LPAs for my 81 year old mother this year. Her memory is deteriorating and so we were doing most of her paperwork for her anyway - we broached the LPA subject with her by saying (not suggesting) we were 'formalising' what we were already doing . I had been attending GP appts with Mum for a few years already (as when she gets there she can't remember why), so it was simple to ask the GP to be the "Certificate Provider". We had a couple of long standing family friends to be the "Persons Who Must Be Told" who know all of us well.

    We did the process ourselves and found it very straightforward indeed, as long as you read through everything at least six times and take it all logically. My sister and I are Joint Deputies, so Mum has appointed a Replacement Deputy as, if anything happened to my sister or me, the LPA would become void.

    We did call the Office of the Public Guardian a couple of times with questions and they were very helpful. The entire process took about four months and it is one less thing for everyone to worry about. As Traffic says, it is much easier to set up before it's actually needed than afterwards

  • PetersRock
    I wonder if Martin can put some advice in this web page/emails about dealing with money, once you are a Registered Attorney?

    I currently deal with two relatives' finances. The problem is when I try to get a good rate of interest and send in the Registered LPA document, with cheque and bank forms there is usually a bounceback of the information with demands for doctors letters and other objections, since banks seem incapable of understanding what an LPA means.

    I already act as a joint signatory on bank accounts. That was set up prior to the LPA being Registered. So can I just send in the cheque, fill in the bank forms and sign as a joint signatory, (leaving the LPA out of it for now) when setting up new savings accounts, in the person's name?

    I feel that would make things far simpler, but I do not wish to 'lose' money to years of bank wrangles later.

    Help. Please. I surely cannot be the only person in this position.

    I don't really want to deal with other people's financial affairs.. but since I'm stuck with it...
  • janicewaring
    I submitted my applications to the PGO via my solicitor in July 2010 - they apparently got mislaid. They were re-submitted in September 2010 and the registration monies taken in October 2010. My attornies were contacted by the PGO in May 2011 but to date I have not received the legal documentation. Many enquires have been made but to no avail. My advise would be to apply as early as possible because of the very serious delays within the PGO system.
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