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    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 14th Jan 17, 12:08 PM
    • 26,726 Posts
    • 12,925 Thanks
    Cardew
    Running costs are one thing the salesman will be happy to repeat + repeat over + over + over again + again- because that's the question you asked. But the answer will be no use to you at all.

    If however you question was I like to live comfortably in 22°C and 18°C when I'm in bed how many of which heaters will I need to maintain this :

    - in my living room only/ in a whole house ?
    - @ (-)5°C outside ?
    - on which tariff cheap night rate or day rate ?
    - whole nett nett installed costs ?
    - you call them storage radiators - how much heat do they store ?
    Originally posted by Richie-from-the-Boro
    If possible get the above details in writing - signed on company headed paper.

    Methinks the chances are slim!
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 14th Jan 17, 11:02 PM
    • 26,726 Posts
    • 12,925 Thanks
    Cardew
    Talking in general terms about electrical heaters, I would add to the above that it is not necessary for any salesman to visit a property in order to assess the heating requirements of any room; when that heat is to be provided by a plug-in electrical heater of any make.

    If for instance the salesman decides it will need, say 2.3kW to heat the room, a 3kW heater will suffice - preferably bought from somewhere like Argos for about £20.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 15th Jan 17, 1:11 AM
    • 6,311 Posts
    • 4,748 Thanks
    Richie-from-the-Boro
    There are other considerations. The behind the drawn curtains, detached from any other influence speciality sales tactics. Late night sales, tired double glazing tactics with an ever reducing special one night conditional offer. Never wanting to leave, consistent, relentless determination to get a signature and deposit even at 11pm. Then there's the consumer credit act. Here once you've signed even if you manage to cancel you have no idea what their 'reasonable costs incurred' are for 'already using their service' even if you do manage to cancel. The 2 years prison for not telling the customer their cancellation rights does not apply when the "we never received your letter, email, phone call" answer comes back.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Be Happy
    • By Be Happy 31st Jan 17, 3:13 PM
    • 1,118 Posts
    • 490 Thanks
    Be Happy
    Latest sales tactic. Received an enquiry card amongst the assortment of junk mail delivered today, from Greener Energy Group.

    I've copied below the wording displayed prominently at the top of the card - note the fourth item!


    "URGENT – ALL HOMEOWNERS- NEW GOVERNMENT FUNDING – JUST RELEASED


    Claim up to £10,000 “limited” interest free Scottish Government funding on a 1st come 1st served basis NOW.


    Then get paid to generate your own “Heat and Electricity” with the latest UK Government incentives


    NEW – German Electric Heaters – Claim up to £2,000 Scrappage against old electric storage heaters."



    They were also offering other services - heating sources, solar panels, etc - some of which sounded equally dubious.
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 31st Jan 17, 3:28 PM
    • 2,928 Posts
    • 1,699 Thanks
    matelodave
    Then report them to the Advertising Standards Authority, don't wait or hope that someone else will.

    The more people that compain then more notice will be taken
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • knightstyle
    • By knightstyle 31st Jan 17, 6:09 PM
    • 4,315 Posts
    • 1,594 Thanks
    knightstyle
    So these radiators do not come with a fixed price! You have to have a survey by a "salesman" who will give a total installed price!
    They must be very expensive, I wonder how many years it will take to see any return on your outlay.
    See Ebay item 262798370031
    • Be Happy
    • By Be Happy 2nd Feb 17, 2:07 PM
    • 1,118 Posts
    • 490 Thanks
    Be Happy
    Then report them to the Advertising Standards Authority, don't wait or hope that someone else will.

    The more people that compain then more notice will be taken
    Originally posted by matelodave
    They have perfected these heater adverts following numerous complaints and if you read the actual wording, they don't say anything actually untrue. They simply imply meanings.

    The four lines of the heading don't tie up - each is independant. It is highly unlikely that you would qualify for any energy efficient grant to replace storage heaters with these heaters. Yes you can physically replace your storage heaters, but the advert does not say you will save money. It just suggests these are a modern version of storage heaters. As for the Scrappage Scheme; it doesn't say this is a 'Government scheme'. This is probably their own company "discount scheme".

    The wording on generating your electricity etc probably applies to the tick box further down the advert which mentions heat pumps, solar panels, etc which they can also supply,
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 2nd Feb 17, 3:25 PM
    • 3,171 Posts
    • 1,675 Thanks
    lstar337
    They have perfected these heater adverts following numerous complaints and if you read the actual wording, they don't say anything actually untrue. They simply imply meanings.

    The four lines of the heading don't tie up - each is independant. It is highly unlikely that you would qualify for any energy efficient grant to replace storage heaters with these heaters. Yes you can physically replace your storage heaters, but the advert does not say you will save money. It just suggests these are a modern version of storage heaters. As for the Scrappage Scheme; it doesn't say this is a 'Government scheme'. This is probably their own company "discount scheme".

    The wording on generating your electricity etc probably applies to the tick box further down the advert which mentions heat pumps, solar panels, etc which they can also supply,
    Originally posted by Be Happy
    Surely the ASA can still take action against adverts that heavily imply something that is untrue?
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 2nd Feb 17, 4:40 PM
    • 26,726 Posts
    • 12,925 Thanks
    Cardew
    Surely the ASA can still take action against adverts that heavily imply something that is untrue?
    Originally posted by lstar337
    I believe the detail below complies with MSE Andrea's directive earlier in the thread:

    Originally Posted by MSE Andrea
    Hi everyone, to let you know, we’ve had to delete many comments from this thread which were bordering on the libellous. Please, to keep the forum manageable, check and consider your forum comments carefully before posting, if they are critical of Fischer or any other brand of heating, and ensure that they’re factually correct and can be fully substantiated.

    Thanks
    https://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications.aspx?SearchTerms=Fischer#1

    Rulings (6)

    Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd A national newspaper ad, seen on 12 September 2015, for an electric heating system was headed "New Boiler or No Boiler?". The ad featured drawings of the interior plans of two houses, one...
    Date: 25 May 2016
    Decision: Upheld in part
    Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd Ads promoted storage heaters:a. A press ad included the claims "The most efficient German storage heater in the UK", "... most efficient German storage radiator on the market",...
    Date: 3 September 2014
    Decision: Upheld in part
    Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd A brochure ad, for heaters, included various claims and images that related to the way the product was intended to work and its claimed benefits. They included claims, and accompanying diagrams,...
    Date: 18 March 2015
    Decision: Upheld
    Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd A table on a page entitled “Running Costs” on www.fischerfutureheat.com, a German storage heater retail company, compared the performance and energy usage of one of their products to two other...
    Date: 11 November 2015
    Decision: Upheld
    Fischer-Future Heat UK A press ad, direct mailing and web ad promoted storage heaters:a. A national press ad stated "Replace your old night storage heaters with modern, instant heat storage heaters". Text which...
    Date: 3 April 2013
    Decision: Upheld
    Fischer-Future Heat UK Ltd A mailing from Fischer-Future Heat UK, for electric storage heaters, stated "Instant heat for one room or the whole house" and "100% energy transfer from heater to room".
    Date: 9 October 2013
    Decision: Not Upheld
    Informally Resolved Cases (7)

    After consideration by the ASA of complaints received, the following companies and organisations agreed to amend or withdraw advertising without the need for a formal ruling:
    Advertiser Date Number of Complaints Media Sector Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd 24 August 2016 1 Internet (on own site) Household Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd 15 June 2016 1 Internet (on own site) Household Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd 26 November 2014 1 Circular, Leaflet Household Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd 14 September 2016 1 National press Household Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd 18 May 2016 1 Brochure, Leaflet, Mailing Household Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd 7 September 2016 1 Internet (on own site) Household Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd 21 October 2015
    Last edited by Cardew; 02-02-2017 at 4:44 PM.
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 2nd Feb 17, 4:46 PM
    • 3,171 Posts
    • 1,675 Thanks
    lstar337
    Interesting to see so many rulings against one company. They do have some very bad luck regarding their adverts.
    • EJB
    • By EJB 7th Mar 17, 8:47 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    EJB
    Attended my widowed sister in law at her modern flat for a Fischer Reps visit.....2 beds good sized rooms.
    She has gas central heating but it requires a new boiler and is looking at about £6000 to update the system.
    The quote for 7 Fischer heaters all in is £8,800 (After the normal Reps waltz!) plus £1.100 interest for payment over 4 to 5 years.

    The above figures are not the problem (It's obviously expensive!).....the problem is what is the yearly running cost compared to gas central heating?

    This was the only question I couldn't get an answer to!
    Can anyone give me an indication please?

    Personally, and my own gas system is due a nearly £6k upgrade soon, I will stay with gas as I believe that gas is, and always has been, cheaper than electricity.
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 7th Mar 17, 9:10 PM
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    • 1,699 Thanks
    matelodave
    Probably the easiest way is to look at how many kwh a year she used on gas and then multiply it by the cost of electricity at peak rate. Because you'll need roughly the same number of kwh to keep similar temperatures whether it's produced by a gas central heating system, super duper Fischer Heater or even a £50 Argos Oil Filled radiator.

    Don't forget that Fischer radiators are not storage heaters, they use peak rate electricity so you are paying full price, they do not benefit from E7 tariffs

    So say you used 12000kwh of gas at 3p a kwh you'd pay around £360 a year.
    If you used peak rate leccy at 12p a kwh it would only cost you £1440 which works out at about a £1000 a year extra
    Last edited by matelodave; 07-03-2017 at 10:37 PM.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 7th Mar 17, 10:51 PM
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    Cardew
    Typo above - it is 12,000kWh.

    The first, and most important, point to make is that any electrical heater will produce the same amount of heat, for the same running cost. So the 7 heaters for £8,800 will not produce more heat for £xxx running cost than 7 heaters from Argos(or similar) costing £10 each.

    Taking a reasonable gas consumption of 12,000kWh pa at 3p/kWh it would cost £360 plus the daily standing charge.

    You then have to consider the lower efficiency of gas central heating against the 100% efficiency of ANY electric heating. So you might only need, say, 10,000kWh of electricity to produce the same amount of heat as 12,000kWh gas. That will cost(at 12p/kWh) £1,200 pa plus daily standing charge.

    You then have to take into account that water will have to be heated by electricity and not much cheaper gas.

    Lastly consider the effect that removing Gas CH, and having electric heating, will have on the value of the flat, either for resale or renting. Ask any estate agent for their views and electric heating will devalue the property considerably. The first thing IMO any sensible owner would do is re-install gas CH!!

    So IMO it would be absolute madness to remove gas CH, and to compound this by paying £8,800 for electrical heaters is simply unbelievable.
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 8th Mar 17, 9:16 AM
    • 3,171 Posts
    • 1,675 Thanks
    lstar337
    Attended my widowed sister in law at her modern flat for a Fischer Reps visit.....2 beds good sized rooms.
    She has gas central heating but it requires a new boiler and is looking at about £6000 to update the system.
    The quote for 7 Fischer heaters all in is £8,800 (After the normal Reps waltz!) plus £1.100 interest for payment over 4 to 5 years.
    Originally posted by EJB
    Just going by your install costs, fixing the GCH is already cheaper than the Fischer heaters.

    A few points:

    1. I take issue with the GCH cost, I think you could do better than £6000.

    2. If you went for the electrical heating you would not only need to pay to have it installed, but also have the wet GCH system removed.

    3. You would possibly need the hot water system modified.

    Add in those extra costs with the increase in running costs illustrated by Cardew and matelodave, and the decrease in property value due to the electrical heating system, it starts to look very poor value indeed.

    Stick with the GCH, just get a few quotes for the upgrade/repair. I have seen quotes near that for a new full system install. A boiler upgrade and a few tweaks to the current system should be much cheaper!
    • Jim C Wilson
    • By Jim C Wilson 10th Mar 17, 5:49 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Jim C Wilson
    Jim C Wilson
    Our experience of Fischer's dreadful service might be of interest. We bought one 1900 watt heater in July 2016. It cost £1567. (I mentioned this on the Trustpilot website and I've been told that my review will be removed because I disclosed the price.)
    The heater was installed eventually on 31st October and has malfunctioned since (I'll spare you all the details). Three times, Fischer employees were to call and didn't turn up. Promised phone calls didn't materialise.
    The thermostat has been 'reset' repeatedly by me personally and by Fischer, via the phone. A new thermostsat (sent by post) and a new receiver did not solve the problems.
    I had concerns about the heater being attached to a 15 amp fuse which already served an older 1300 watt heater and six sockets. It took ages to get Fischer to state in an email that the arrangement was satisfactory.
    An earlier review of all this I put on Trustpilot was removed because I mentioned I had contacted the CAB and they had forwarded details to Trading Standards. These facts were described as defamatory.
    On 7th March, Fischer phoned me to suggest the problems might be solved if I took down a mirror in my hall! I did this. Nothing changed.
    Obviously, in view of all this, I cannot comment on the running costs: the heater is off when it should be on, and on when it should be off.
    I can add, without comment, that most of the reviews of Fischer on Trustpilot are 5-star and glowing.
    • David Aston
    • By David Aston 10th Mar 17, 5:59 PM
    • 627 Posts
    • 403 Thanks
    David Aston
    Jim
    Thanks for your thorough post. I must imagine you might not have purchased said heater, if you had previously looked through this thread! I suppose only buying one, is some kind of solace?
    • poppity
    • By poppity 11th Mar 17, 11:21 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    poppity
    I have just finished reading this whole thread, and have joined MSE specifically to be able to post my sincere thanks to everyone who has taken the trouble to post such useful information.

    I I have just moved into a new house with a small baby and found the heating system doesn't really work at all....I was about to spend upwards of 10k I don't have on radiators that would have left me with crippling bills.

    I am gutted that the so-called-solution I had pinned my hopes on won't work, but so relieved that I found out before I spent any money on it. Back to the drawing board for me....

    It really isn't easy to find unbiased information about these products in the public domain, but this thread and its links to the ASA are invaluable. Thank you.
    • CashStrapped
    • By CashStrapped 12th Mar 17, 2:18 AM
    • 1,086 Posts
    • 598 Thanks
    CashStrapped
    I have just finished reading this whole thread, and have joined MSE specifically to be able to post my ........
    Originally posted by poppity
    Glad you found it helpful poppity.

    What is your current heating set-up? Maybe we can help/advise.
    • poppity
    • By poppity 12th Mar 17, 8:42 AM
    • 4 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    poppity
    Thanks for the offer, I need all the advice I can get!

    My current system is bungalow, with a multi fuel burner in the living room which is supposed to power the heating system and hot water, (although there is an electric element in the tank also). To keep the burner going from 7am-10pm (keeping room warm enough for baby) takes 10kg of coal and 10kg of wood per day, but although this creates a big fire in the burner, and therefore heats this one room, it doesn't trigger the hot water or heating system.

    Two different hetas engineers have told me the system as it is setup could never have worked, too many radiators, too many rooms etc, and they suspect various bits were put together second hand that don't work together simply in order to get the sale through...., Realistically what we've got is a load of pipework and a fire in the living room that can heat that room, so a complete rethink is needed.

    The heatas engineer suggests is I put in an oil tank, oil boiler, smaller hot water cylinder and new radiators in the bedrooms which would get us affordable hot water and could run the radiators for the bedrooms off this system for between £4 and £5k. As for the rest of the house, he said he wasn't sure what to suggest as any solution would be very expensive.

    The previous owner had used electric storage heaters in the past, I assume, as its an economy 7 meter, hence my interest in the 'new' 'future' heaters (!). I gather from reading this thread that putting back in Dimplex or other night storage heaters might be my best option for heating but I have two things I'm stuck on if anyone could help:

    1, How to work out how many to buy and what wattage and
    2. what to do to get hot water. At the moment the immersion element on economy 7 day time rate is horribly expensive.

    Its a bungalow and a u shape, so every room has at least 2 outside walls, and although it does have very good loft insulation it does lose heat. Thanks.
    • ChaunceyGardiner
    • By ChaunceyGardiner 12th Mar 17, 9:02 AM
    • 55 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    ChaunceyGardiner
    Does each room already have a radiator?
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