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  • FIRST POST
    leecasey
    Natwest Refuses Chargeback
    • #1
    • 5th Sep 11, 1:56 PM
    Natwest Refuses Chargeback 5th Sep 11 at 1:56 PM
    Hi, I put a holding deposit down on a bike for £100. I said in email I would want a refund if I didnt like the bike when I arrived to see it. They phoned me to reply and agreed I could have my depsoit back for whatever reason what so ever.

    After seeing the bike I would like the refund but they are refusing.

    I spoke to Natwest to initiate a chargeback but they said this does not qualify unless I have it in writing that they would refund me. I do not believe this to be correct?! Are Natwest pulling a fast one?

    Thanks
    Lee
Page 1
    • zx81
    • By zx81 5th Sep 11, 2:00 PM
    • 6,820 Posts
    • 6,605 Thanks
    zx81
    • #2
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:00 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:00 PM
    It sounds correct to me. Natwest would refund you if the supplier hasn't lived up to his side. But they need to know that failing to refund a deposit counts as that, as many retailers would operate a non-refundable deposit policy. What does it say in any of the documentation, website etc?
  • moonrakerz
    • #3
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:08 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:08 PM
    Are Natwest pulling a fast one?
    Originally posted by leecasey
    No - but they probably think that you are ! Can you PROVE that they offered to refund your deposit ?

    I presume you paid this on a Visa card ? You have just found the major flaw with the "chargeback" scheme - the bank decides when it will or will not pay out. The whole thing is just covered by Visa's code of practice, not by Law.
    The biggest problem with "chargeback" is that many customers try and use it in cases of "buyer's remorse" (qv) - the banks, quite understandably, do not wish to subsidise people's rash spending decisions.
  • leecasey
    • #4
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:08 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:08 PM
    there is nothing on the website regarding deposits. I have no paperwork or anything like as it was done as a holding deposit before I even got to the dealer.

    It did raise my suspsicions when they didnt reply via email and called me instead but to be honest I thought I'd be covered if I put it on my credit card.
  • leecasey
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:12 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:12 PM
    No - but they probably think that you are ! Can you PROVE that they offered to refund your deposit ?

    I presume you paid this on a Visa card ? You have just found the major flaw with the "chargeback" scheme - the bank decides when it will or will not pay out. The whole thing is just covered by Visa's code of practice, not by Law.
    The biggest problem with "chargeback" is that many customers try and use it in cases of "buyer's remorse" (qv) - the banks, quite understandably, do not wish to subsidise people's rash spending decisions.
    Originally posted by moonrakerz
    Well S.75 states it covers ANY purchase when it goes wrong. It was done on Natwest Mastercard not Visa.

    I have an email I sent to them saying I would only pay deposit on the basis it would be refundable but as stated they called me back rather than email. Sneaky! - or maybe just so they could take payment straight away. Either way it was verbally agreed and I'm not sure this matters or not.
    • zx81
    • By zx81 5th Sep 11, 2:16 PM
    • 6,820 Posts
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    zx81
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:16 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:16 PM
    The verbal agreement won't count for much, as it's their word against yours. And normally, deposits are non-refundable, due to their nature (ie you're stopping them selling it to anyone else).

    If they won't confirm it's refundable, you'll either need to take the hit or see if they have another bike you could put it against.
  • moonrakerz
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:22 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:22 PM
    Well S.75 states it covers ANY purchase when it goes wrong. It was done on Natwest Mastercard not Visa.
    Originally posted by leecasey
    NO ! Sect 75 does not "cover any purchase when it goes wrong" - please read up on it !

    "Section 75 does not, in itself, provide grounds for a claim against a supplier. Customers must have a valid claim of breach of contract or misrepresentation under other law, such as the Sale of Goods Act or the Misrepresentation Act. If they do, then they have a like claim against the card provider for the full amount of the claim."

    Financial Ombudsman:

    can you PROVE any of the above ?
    • nomoneytoday
    • By nomoneytoday 5th Sep 11, 2:31 PM
    • 4,597 Posts
    • 2,758 Thanks
    nomoneytoday
    • #8
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:31 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:31 PM
    What about the Distance selling regs?
  • leecasey
    • #9
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:51 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Sep 11, 2:51 PM
    Oh well it's only £100. Live and learn. Thanks for your input.
    • dazza.mk
    • By dazza.mk 5th Sep 11, 5:20 PM
    • 1,845 Posts
    • 1,159 Thanks
    dazza.mk
    What about the Distance selling regs?
    Originally posted by nomoneytoday
    Agreed, you have full rights to cancel under the distance selling regulations upto 7 days from receiving the goods (which sounds like you met), In this case I would ensure that Natwest know you don't want to do a chargeback, rather a Section 75 claim based on the retailers failure to honour your rights under the distance selling regulations.
    • ICan'tStandIt
    • By ICan'tStandIt 5th Sep 11, 5:57 PM
    • 395 Posts
    • 133 Thanks
    ICan'tStandIt
    I agree with those that say in this case a chargeback is not appropriate.

    You bought a bike and you got a bike and you have no paperwork to back up what you said was promised about the deposit.

    You could try pushing the section 75 / distance selling regulations. For this sort of an amount Natwest might just cave in and give you the money. It's worth more to you than it is to them, so it is worth causing a fuss and taking up their time in the hope they cough-up.
    • jonesMUFCforever
    • By jonesMUFCforever 5th Sep 11, 6:31 PM
    • 22,043 Posts
    • 9,601 Thanks
    jonesMUFCforever
    IMO Distance regulations does not apply here as bike was not sent to OP as he did not complete the purchase.
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 5th Sep 11, 8:43 PM
    • 5,654 Posts
    • 2,882 Thanks
    chattychappy
    IMO Distance regulations does not apply here as bike was not sent to OP as he did not complete the purchase.
    Originally posted by jonesMUFCforever
    If the shop are claiming the OP became legally bound by paying the deposit, then the contract was formed and distance selling regs apply. Of course other conditions need to apply for DSR rights - eg he didn't do the deal in the shop and the bike isn't bespoke etc.

    If the OP sent the email prior to, or contemporaneously with the deposit, then a print out of that email should be good evidence.
    • dazza.mk
    • By dazza.mk 5th Sep 11, 8:56 PM
    • 1,845 Posts
    • 1,159 Thanks
    dazza.mk
    IMO Distance regulations does not apply here as bike was not sent to OP as he did not complete the purchase.
    Originally posted by jonesMUFCforever
    I disagree, the majority of the time that would hold true, but not in all cases, as long as the retailer typically sold bikes by the channel by which the OP put a deposit on the bike he would be OK, as the contract would have been formed at the point he laid down the deposit.

    See the below:
    A consumer has come to my showroom to collect the car, does this mean it isn't a distance contract?
    http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft689.pdf
    • dazza.mk
    • By dazza.mk 5th Sep 11, 8:58 PM
    • 1,845 Posts
    • 1,159 Thanks
    dazza.mk
    If the shop are claiming the OP became legally bound by paying the deposit, then the contract was formed and distance selling regs apply. Of course other conditions need to apply for DSR rights - eg he didn't do the deal in the shop and the bike isn't bespoke etc.

    If the OP sent the email prior to, or contemporaneously with the deposit, then a print out of that email should be good evidence.
    Originally posted by chattychappy
    The only thing to add is that it usually doesn't apply for 'one off deals' it need to b via "an organised distance sales or service provision scheme"
    http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf
  • leecasey
    Hmmm interesting stuff! I am going to ring Natwest again now and see how they respond to this.

    Thanks guys! If I get it back you all get a beer!
    • MsBlonde
    • By MsBlonde 6th Sep 11, 11:25 AM
    • 386 Posts
    • 2,415 Thanks
    MsBlonde
    thought the whole point of deposits were they were unrefundable, because if they were refundable, whats the point of putting a deposit down? They might as well said yeah just come look.
  • leecasey
    Yeah, well this was my point. I didnt want to put a deposit down as I was going to look at it the next day. This is when they said the deposit would be fully refundable its just to let us know you are serious.

    I've just spoken to Natwest again, at first they said its not possible to claim under distance selling regs but then I explained I was claiming distance selling and the contract was formed over the phone when I put down the deposit and I had already spoken to the CAB regarding this and I was in my rights to claim. This soon changed the conversation and she said if I wrote in with a covering letter they would help obtain the money from Mastercard. So its not a 100% but it looks promising I think?
    • MsBlonde
    • By MsBlonde 6th Sep 11, 11:45 AM
    • 386 Posts
    • 2,415 Thanks
    MsBlonde
    Yeah, well this was my point. I didnt want to put a deposit down as I was going to look at it the next day. This is when they said the deposit would be fully refundable its just to let us know you are serious.

    I've just spoken to Natwest again, at first they said its not possible to claim under distance selling regs but then I explained I was claiming distance selling and the contract was formed over the phone when I put down the deposit and I had already spoken to the CAB regarding this and I was in my rights to claim. This soon changed the conversation and she said if I wrote in with a covering letter they would help obtain the money from Mastercard. So its not a 100% but it looks promising I think?
    Originally posted by leecasey
    I phoned a well known company and got that response when buying a new car, I phoned up asking could I come to the show room to have a look seeing i saw it on the website.

    I got please phone and pay £1,000 deposit, I replied I don't know I want it yet can I just come and see it, then got a load of excuses that they have a buyer for it, so it's made its way down to cornwall showroom (instead of london), then he decided that if I pay £1,000 they'll bring it up from cornwall so i can "look" at it and if i don't want it they'll refund me... yeahhhhhhhhh riiiiiight! I politely refused and said i'd go elsewhere lol

    Good luck, and remember in future only put a deposit down if you 100% want it and you've seen it, don't let them talk you into stuff.
    • dazza.mk
    • By dazza.mk 6th Sep 11, 11:52 AM
    • 1,845 Posts
    • 1,159 Thanks
    dazza.mk
    Yeah, well this was my point. I didnt want to put a deposit down as I was going to look at it the next day. This is when they said the deposit would be fully refundable its just to let us know you are serious.

    I've just spoken to Natwest again, at first they said its not possible to claim under distance selling regs but then I explained I was claiming distance selling and the contract was formed over the phone when I put down the deposit and I had already spoken to the CAB regarding this and I was in my rights to claim. This soon changed the conversation and she said if I wrote in with a covering letter they would help obtain the money from Mastercard. So its not a 100% but it looks promising I think?
    Originally posted by leecasey
    Sounds like they're still treating it as a chargeback rather than a Section 75 claim.
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