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Fine for not renewing road tax
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# 1
tripled
Old 06-01-2007, 4:55 PM
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Default Fine for not renewing road tax

Hi guys,

A few months ago I forgot to renew my road tax, as the month before it was due I moved home so didn't receive a renewal notice. I had said up redirection, but due to delays with Royal Mail it wasn't set up until nearly 3 weeks after I moved.

Next thing I know, in October a letter plops through saying I owe an £80 penalty (which I have to admit I only paid a couple of days ago).

So I was wondering, would it be an 'unreasonable penalty', so I could claim it back like a bank charge? Very unlikely I know, but I wondered if anyone has tried such a thing before? Imagine loads of MSE'ers claiming back income and road tax fines off Gordon... *dreams*
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# 2
pinkfluffybabe
Old 06-01-2007, 5:34 PM
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Tbh, you don't need the renewal notice to remind you when to renew your tax disc, it has its expiry date on and it is right there on your windscreen in front of you.

You can now also renew online without the forms as well so I don't think your claim would hold water. Accept that you should have renewed it in time, and move on.
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# 3
Wig
Old 06-01-2007, 5:51 PM
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Sorry, no dice.

The reminder is a courtesy (IANAL). The renewal requirement is your responsibility. Again (IANAL)
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# 4
Wig
Old 06-01-2007, 6:59 PM
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But as Albert hinted upon above. To get a fine your car would have to be untaxed for more than 1 month. If your tax expores on August 31st, you have the whole of September to get it done (and no, before anyone says, I am not saying this means you can keep or use an untaxed car on the highway during the untaxed period ) if you do it on October1st you will get a fine.

And another disclaimer, I am fully aware the DVLA says you have 14 days, but in practice they only act on cars which have a gap in the tax cover, if you tax your car during the first month you get a tax disc from the 1st of the month.

So if you did tax it with a consequtive tax disc then there is hope.

Last edited by Wig; 06-01-2007 at 7:01 PM.
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# 5
Bossyboots
Old 06-01-2007, 7:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripled
Hi guys,

A few months ago I forgot to renew my road tax, as the month before it was due I moved home so didn't receive a renewal notice. I had said up redirection, but due to delays with Royal Mail it wasn't set up until nearly 3 weeks after I moved.

Next thing I know, in October a letter plops through saying I owe an £80 penalty (which I have to admit I only paid a couple of days ago).

So I was wondering, would it be an 'unreasonable penalty', so I could claim it back like a bank charge? Very unlikely I know, but I wondered if anyone has tried such a thing before? Imagine loads of MSE'ers claiming back income and road tax fines off Gordon... *dreams*

It is not a charge for breach of contract so not an unreasonable penalty like bank charges.
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# 6
tripled
Old 06-01-2007, 7:48 PM
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My car tax actually ran out on 31st July, I'm fully aware it was my fault that I forgot to renew it, however the fact that I didn't receive the reminder didn't help. I immediately bought tax when I got the penalty letter but I only just got raound to paying the fine (got the Halifax to pay for half of it because they didn't send me a cheque book for months, claimed if they had I would have been able to pay it sooner).

My question was simply regarding if it could be classed as a penalty charge, I wasn't seriously thinking about sending a threat of court action to Gordon Brown, more wondering if anyone had tried it before and if it might be something worth attempting, just for the hell of it.
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# 7
saintjanet
Old 06-01-2007, 8:40 PM
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My s-in-law was fined for not renewing her tax on a car that had been scrapped,they said they had not been notified!!!She sent them notification,they must have lost it.

She never had any joy with them and did not receive a refund,they seem to be a law unto themselves.
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# 8
Wig
Old 06-01-2007, 8:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bossyboots
It is not a charge for breach of contract so not an unreasonable penalty like bank charges.

Your only hope lies in the "Bill of Rights - 1689" which says that no fine or penalty may be given without order by a court (or something like that). I think there is someone taking the gov (or a council - parking tickets I think) to court on the issue, but law experts say he has no chance. As modern laws supersede the act even though they don't specifically say so.

Last edited by Wig; 06-01-2007 at 8:49 PM.
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# 9
reduceditem
Old 06-01-2007, 10:10 PM
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I got back £190 from the DVLA last month that I had to pay out as a result of my vehicle being clamped and impounded for not displaying a valid tax disc. I had just returned from four months abroad with my car and they clamped it the morning after I returned (i had no time to tax it). Before I had left for British shores I had realized my tax would expire whilst away and I phoned the DVLA for advice. I was told I couldn't re-tax now because you can only re-tax a maximum of 8 weeks before your old disc expires. The guy I spoke to said to just tax it as soon as I return. As it turns out this advice was wrong, there are a couple of ways round the problem but he failed to suggest them. When the car was clamped I refused to pay for a number of days because I thought once I explained what had happened they would release the car from the pound. NOBODY at the DVLA would even give me the time of day and a couple of advisors stated that they didn't believe an advisor would have told me what he did. In the end I paid the fine, which had continued mounting, to stop my vehicle being crushed. I then wrote in a letter of appeal...they wrote back saying they had no record of my original phone call. I got Orange to send me a copy of the appropriate phone bill and I sent in copies of my ferry tickets and an insurance document. A couple of weeks later I received a cheque for £190 from DVLA. It wasn't easy but it can be done if you are in the right and you can prove it. I know my situation is not the same as the one you were in....I just wanted to demonstrate that it is possible to get money back from the DVLA. I'll leave your decision about whether or not to appeal up to you.
Good luck.
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# 10
Crabman
Old 06-01-2007, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wig
Your only hope lies in the "Bill of Rights - 1689" which says that no fine or penalty may be given without order by a court (or something like that). I think there is someone taking the gov (or a council - parking tickets I think) to court on the issue, but law experts say he has no chance. As modern laws supersede the act even though they don't specifically say so.
Wig is correct - a guy from Worcester tried unsuccessfully to get out of his parking ticket using that "Bill of Rights". Shame

I always thought they issued the £80 fine even if you were a day late?!
I'm a Board Guide on the Savings & Investments, ISAs & Tax-free Savings, Public Transport & Cycling, Motoring and Parking Fines, Tickets & Parking Boards which means I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly & I can move & merge posts there. Board Guides are not moderators & don't read every post. If you spot a contentious or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com

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# 11
Wig
Old 07-01-2007, 1:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabman
Wig is correct - a guy from Worcester tried unsuccessfully to get out of his parking ticket using that "Bill of Rights". Shame

I always thought they issued the £80 fine even if you were a day late?!
Do you have any links on the bill of rights case? Do you know if he stupid enough to appeal?

"A day late" well you see when you renew during the month that you expired it is back dated to the 1st of the month, meaning you pay for the full month, so the DVLA is happy because they have their money, and your car did not become untaxed.

It's always better to do it in advance of expiry ofcourse. and if you do forget the sooner you do it the better really, because you want the computers to know that you are taxed.
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# 12
derrick
Old 07-01-2007, 1:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wig
"A day late" well you see when you renew during the month that you expired it is back dated to the 1st of the month, meaning you pay for the full month, so the DVLA is happy because they have their money, and your car did not become untaxed.
But then you have the offence of "not displaying a valid/current disc"

It also seems that the OP was driving the car for 2 months untaxed before he got the fine, "My car tax actually ran out on 31st July,"(post #7), " in October a letter plops through saying I owe an £80 penalty"(post #1), As post #2 says "it has its expiry date on and it is right there on your windscreen in front of you." So I do not think the OP has any valid reason for disputing the fine.
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# 13
Crabman
Old 07-01-2007, 5:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wig
Do you have any links on the bill of rights case? Do you know if he stupid enough to appeal?
From BBC News:

News - Man challenges fine with 1689 law

A 67-year-old man invokes the 1689 Bill of Rights to fight a £60 parking fine from Worcester City Council..
18 Nov 2005

News - Parking fine fight at High Court

A 67-year-old who used a 300-year-old law to fight a £60 parking fine takes his case to the High Court.. National Parking Adjudication Service said illegal parking was not proved.
5 Jan 2006
I'm a Board Guide on the Savings & Investments, ISAs & Tax-free Savings, Public Transport & Cycling, Motoring and Parking Fines, Tickets & Parking Boards which means I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly & I can move & merge posts there. Board Guides are not moderators & don't read every post. If you spot a contentious or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com

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# 14
Wig
Old 07-01-2007, 7:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrick
But then you have the offence of "not displaying a valid/current disc"
Why? Why would anyone be stuipid enough to take/put/keep an unlicensed vehicle on the road? Please read my 2nd reply in this thread. Thread post #5. Why do people always have to say this as a response to me when I correctly state how long you have to renew a tax disc? It might also be intteresting to see what the DVLA say about the 14 days official grace period they give you, ask them what the situation is with driving the vehicle within those 14 days.

Quote:
It also seems that the OP was driving the car for 2 months untaxed before he got the fine, "My car tax actually ran out on 31st July,"(post #7), " in October a letter plops through saying I owe an £80 penalty"(post #1), As post #2 says "it has its expiry date on and it is right there on your windscreen in front of you." So I do not think the OP has any valid reason for disputing the fine.
As everyone else has already said.

Last edited by Wig; 07-01-2007 at 9:11 PM.
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# 15
Wig
Old 07-01-2007, 7:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabman
From BBC News:

Oops edited too much out
So it seems he won his parking appeal, but still insisted on refering the whole matter to the high court for judicial review. LOL he's got balls.

A year later and we have no more info whether the case has been accepted by the high court.

Look at this link, I'm going to print it out and read it offline, it looks quite interesting.
"proceedings may be recorded" Ha ha I love this guy turning their own incompetance against them.

http://www.bwmaonline.com/Robin%20de%20Crittenden's%20NPAS%20hearing.htm
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# 16
derrick
Old 07-01-2007, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wig
Why? Why would anyone be stuipid enough to take/put/keep an unlicensed vehicle on the road? Please read my 2nd reply in this thread. Thread post #5. Why do people always have to say this as a response to me when I correctly state how long you have to renew a tax disc? It might also be intteresting to see what the DVLA say about the 14 days official grace period they give you, ask them what the situation is with driving the vehicle within those 14 days.

Well people are and do, the OP did it for 2 months, so he must be stupid? You do NOT have 14 days grace,(that is a myth), you are liable from day one of the vehicle being on the road, that is why there is the offence of "not displaying a valid/current disc" because you can be prosecuted for that on the 1st day of the month if you do not display a current disc, so where does your mythical 14 days come from?

As everyone else has already said. But the OP has done this! meaning your other quote here is invalid. If the offence of not displaying a current disc IS an offence,(which it is), then by definition you cannot have 14 days grace!
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# 17
Wig
Old 07-01-2007, 11:29 PM
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What are you talking about?

"Why? Why would anyone be stuipid enough to take/put/keep an unlicensed vehicle on the road?"

Ok insert the word "deliberately" Obviously scum do it all the time. But anyone reading my comment #5 would be stupid to do so.

Quote:
You do NOT have 14 days grace,(that is a myth), you are liable from day one of the vehicle being on the road, that is why there is the offence of "not displaying a valid/current disc"
You do have atleast 28 days infact. You are NOT liable from day one. NO ONE ia talking about the vehicle ON THE ROAD, NO ONE is talking abot the offence of failure to display. Why didn't you read #5?

We are talking in this thread about the £80 penalty fine for non renewal. We are not talking about using an unlicensed vehicle (although it has been flagged up as a warning see post #5).

I asked you to read post #5 either you did not read it or you don't see the difference between a prosecution for "failure to display/hold a current VED" and "£80 penalty charge for failure to renew VED (or SORN)".

These two things are very different.

Quote:
As everyone else has already said. But the OP has done this! meaning your other quote here is invalid. If the offence of not displaying a current disc IS an offence,(which it is), then by definition you cannot have 14 days grace!
What "other quote" of mine are you talking about? I can only assume you mean this one because you earlier replied to this one of mine

""A day late" well you see when you renew during the month that you expired it is back dated to the 1st of the month, meaning you pay for the full month, so the DVLA is happy because they have their money, and your car did not become untaxed."
<<< insert "for DVLA penalty charge purposes only".

I was respondng to a question by Crabman....that's why I included the MSE board quote featuring Crabman, and to be perfectly clear I started off with "A day late" (Crabmans words). You see crabman was asking about the £80 fine he did not ask about using the vehicle on the highway. Presumably he had already read post #5 and understood the difference between the two issues.

As to the 14 days, I could have sworn someone once posted here a quote from the DVLA website where it said that, I have not got time to search right now, I will tomorrow. However, you do have the whole of the 1st expiry month to get it sorted, As I have explained many times before, if you do it within the first month you WILL NOT GET FINED £80.......please note NOWHERE did I say this applies to using your vehicle in the meantime on the highway, infact I specifically mentioned that you could not do that, because I knew someone like you, always comes along and confuses the two issues.

Last edited by Wig; 08-01-2007 at 11:50 AM.
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# 18
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Old 07-01-2007, 11:49 PM
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If the OP drove for 2 months without tax and the tax was £160 they saved about 2 x £13 so the £80 - £26 means the 'fine' was just £53. Pay up, move on and remember next time.
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Last edited by in my wellies; 28-04-2007 at 11:00 PM.
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# 19
reduceditem
Old 08-01-2007, 12:13 AM
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Lets try to make this clear and simple.
If you don't renew your tax disc and you are the registered keeper(you should already have received a reminder) you will recieve a computer generated warning letter 2 weeks later. If you still don't re-tax a computer generated fine is sent out to you on the 1st of the next month (exactly one calendar month after your tax expired.
If you use your car on the road in the interim you could be caught by the DVLA's mobile enforcement unit who can clamp and impound your car. The police and authorised traffic wardens can issue fines too.
The DVLA just want all the tax due for your vehicle so if you renew your tax inside of the month following your last discs expiry date they will happily backdate it and no more questions will be asked. However if you want to chance it by using the public road in this time you'll be running the risk of the penalties described above. Fetching your car out of your local DVLA 'pound' can bring a cloud to the sunniest of days.
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# 20
Wig
Old 08-01-2007, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reduceditem
you will recieve a computer generated warning letter 2 weeks later. .
Didn't know that.
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