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8 week old Puppy is sick - what to do?
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# 1
sophieschoice
Old 11-06-2011, 12:30 PM
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Default 8 week old Puppy is sick - what to do?

If anyone can help or has faced a similar situation I would be very grateful for their input.
Basically, friend paid £250 for a puppy on Tuesday. She (puppy) came from registered breeder and is a cross.
Puppy is 8 weeks old and has one injection left to have.
No contract was signed but friend has receipt.
On Thursday (36 hours after being bought) puppy started with diarrohea which worsened over the next 24 hours.
Two vet visits later friend took pup to 24 hour pet clinic where she is now on a drip. She has been diagnosed with Gastro Enteritis which the Vet said takes roughly 5 days to incubate. If this is the case the puppy would have contracted it at the breeders.
Breeder didn't provide any insurance (!) but has offered to pay part of the costs incurred for puppy's treatment. She is upset and has contacted owners of other puppies she sold and, so far, none of them are ill.
Friend is totally devastated and pup hasn't improved during the night. The insurance friend took out commonly doesn't cover any illness during the first two weeks.
Costs are now up to £500 and, with another night's hospitalisation and tests which will need doing, scans etc., may even double.
Friend has the money to pay for it so that isn't the issue and she will pay whatever it costs.
But shouldn't the breeder be liable and is there anything friend can refer to? Are pets covered under Sale of Goods Act etc.?
It seems pretty awful to pay £250 for puppy then have to pay possibly the best part of £1,000 within a week of taking ownership.
I would be grateful if anyone can help and we are all hoping pup makes a full recovery because she is the most adorable little thing ever and has captured all our hearts.
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# 2
pixelation
Old 11-06-2011, 12:45 PM
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I'm so sorry to hear that this puppy is ill.
Sadly puppies often get struck down with sickness after leaving their mum. Their immunity from the milk drops off and they pick up any thing going, including the new house's resident germs. If the other pups don't have it then it is less likely to have been caught at the breeders. Have vets run full blood and stool screen? Puppies sometimes just get puppy diarrhea which goes on its own, or can need intervention as in this case. Sometimes vets just call it "gastroenteritis" as a coverall. If it is bacterial ot viral it still is not so likely to have come via the breeder.
IMHO the breeder is being very kind offering to help out.

Last edited by pixelation; 11-06-2011 at 12:49 PM.
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# 3
sophieschoice
Old 11-06-2011, 12:58 PM
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Thank you. Friend would have expected some change in pup. I had 3 kittens from CP so know animals take time to adjust to new homes.
I am only quoting what the Vet told her that the normal incubation period is 5 days. Pup has vomited since being in clinic and diarrohea has continued despite being on a drip overnight.
I agree that the breeder is being kind by offering to part pay but if she had insured the puppies before selling them (even if she passed the cost on to the new owners) then my friend would not have to pay the best part of perhaps a £1,000 (and I fully expect this to rise as I paid via insurance company nearly £2,500 for one of my cats treatment).
Unfortunately, as I said earlier, insuring pets isn't like insuring cars. There is a waiting period of two weeks before they become covered.
No amount of money (even a full refund) can make up for what my friend is going through right now.
Puppy hasn't been exposed to any other dog or even anyone who owns dogs. Only visitors have been me and OH.
I don't doubt puppy is exposed to different germs in her new home but friend has just moved into new house herself where everything is brand new inc carpets and furnishings so it's less likely, in my opinion, to have picked up anything to have caused this kind of problem there.
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# 4
Fire Fox
Old 11-06-2011, 1:09 PM
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Is the vet willing to provide a signed report that the infection MUST have taken place before your friend took ownership? Agree with Pixelation, you will need the specific pathogen identified for this. Dogs do not only contract infections from other dogs, most micro-organisms are not species-specific. Some can only be passed on through close contact, viruses particularly do not survive long outside a host as they are basically naked DNA. Some bacteria are spore formers whilst others are not, again identification of the pathogen is needed before you can speculate.

Has your friend been communicating in writing (e-mail is fine) and retained copies of all correspondence? Why was no contract signed and no continuing insurance cover arranged with the breeder? If the breeder had her own insurance I am not sure this would have covered the treatment, as the puppy is no longer hers. IIRC animals are covered under the Sale of Goods Act, however if that is the case then the seller has the right to choose whether they 'repair', replace or refund. Usually refund or replacement is offered if the cost of the repair is more than the cost of the product, as in this case. I am assuming your friend does not want a refund or replacement as both mean returning the puppy?

In the eyes of the law it is not reasonable to expect the breeder to pay the full cost of diagnosis and 'repairs' which they have no say over. If the puppy is returned the breeder *may* choose to write the 'product' off, i.e. PTS. I appreciate I am sounding harsh here, but unfortunately if you invoke the SoGA you may have to treat a living creature as if he were an inanimate object. I hope the puppy makes a full recovery ASAP.
What a difference a day makes, twenty four little hours.

Last edited by Fire Fox; 11-06-2011 at 1:20 PM.
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# 5
Tropez
Old 11-06-2011, 1:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophieschoice View Post
Thank you. Friend would have expected some change in pup. I had 3 kittens from CP so know animals take time to adjust to new homes.
I am only quoting what the Vet told her that the normal incubation period is 5 days. Pup has vomited since being in clinic and diarrohea has continued despite being on a drip overnight.
I agree that the breeder is being kind by offering to part pay but if she had insured the puppies before selling them (even if she passed the cost on to the new owners) then my friend would not have to pay the best part of perhaps a £1,000 (and I fully expect this to rise as I paid via insurance company nearly £2,500 for one of my cats treatment).
Unfortunately, as I said earlier, insuring pets isn't like insuring cars. There is a waiting period of two weeks before they become covered.
No amount of money (even a full refund) can make up for what my friend is going through right now.
Puppy hasn't been exposed to any other dog or even anyone who owns dogs. Only visitors have been me and OH.
I don't doubt puppy is exposed to different germs in her new home but friend has just moved into new house herself where everything is brand new inc carpets and furnishings so it's less likely, in my opinion, to have picked up anything to have caused this kind of problem there.
I've yet to encounter an insurance company that will insure a dog under the age of 8 weeks old. The reason for this is that dogs under 8 are susceptible to disease and more likely to die than a dog over the age of 8 weeks.

I just ran a search for insurance for a 6 week old puppy through a Price Comparison site and all 20+ companies returned "Cannot provide a quote due to pet's age".
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# 6
sophieschoice
Old 11-06-2011, 1:21 PM
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Thanks for that.
Pup is the tiniest little thing, she fits in the palm of your hand at the moment, and wasn't the runt of the litter either.
We are all worried but my friend is absolutely out of her mind.
The practical part of me worries what happens if the worst happens.
Can't put a price on the emotional upset and heartbreak but to be over a thousand pounds worse off for something you only had for two days just seems so wrong.
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# 7
Fire Fox
Old 11-06-2011, 1:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophieschoice View Post
Thanks for that.
Pup is the tiniest little thing, she fits in the palm of your hand at the moment, and wasn't the runt of the litter either.
We are all worried but my friend is absolutely out of her mind.
The practical part of me worries what happens if the worst happens.
Can't put a price on the emotional upset and heartbreak but to be over a thousand pounds worse off for something you only had for two days just seems so wrong.
Are you sure the puppy is old/ large enough to have left her mother, what does the vet think? The fact that a dog is not an inanimate object is why contracts exist - a reputable breeder will insist you return one of their dogs/ cats if your circumstances change (even years later) and there should be an agreement if a genetic fault is discovered. If the breeder if legitimate, perhaps contact the registering body to find out what their stance is on a sick puppy with no insurance and no contract? Though as the puppy is a mongrel they may not be interested.
What a difference a day makes, twenty four little hours.
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# 8
sophieschoice
Old 11-06-2011, 1:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Fox View Post
Is the vet willing to provide a signed report that the infection MUST have taken place before your friend took ownership?

Has your friend been communicating in writing (e-mail is fine) and retained copies of all correspondence? Why was no contract signed and no continuing insurance cover arranged with the breeder? If the breeder had her own insurance I am not sure this would have covered the treatment, as the puppy is no longer hers. IIRC animals are covered under the Sale of Goods Act, however if that is the case then the seller has the right to choose whether they 'repair', replace or refund. Usually refund or replacement is offered if the cost of the repair is more than the cost of the product, as in this case. I am assuming your friend does not want a refund or replacement as both mean returning the puppy?
I hope the puppy makes a full recovery ASAP.
Thank you. Pup is still on a drip so tests won't be done unless she shows signs of worsening which will be in the morning. Vet said at least 24 hours on drip.
No there was/is no written communication just phone calls and texts between friend and breeder.
Breeder is very upset and asking for updates from friend. Obviously she has pups best interest at heart as we all do.
I don't understand why breeder (fully registered and checked and 100% legitimate) doesn't give contracts either. Maybe because it's a crossbreed? At this rate, if she keeps her (verbal) word of part paying, she will be at least the price of two pups out of pocket.
No, friend wants to keep pup at any cost and wouldn't dream of returning her.
Will give updates as and when I get them.
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# 9
sophieschoice
Old 11-06-2011, 1:34 PM
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Just had update. Pup now in isolation. Friend not allowed to see her!
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# 10
sophieschoice
Old 11-06-2011, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Fox View Post
Are you sure the puppy is old/ large enough to have left her mother, what does the vet think? The fact that a dog is not an inanimate object is why contracts exist - a reputable breeder will insist you return one of their dogs/ cats if your circumstances change (even years later) and there should be an agreement if a genetic fault is discovered. If the breeder if legitimate, perhaps contact the registering body to find out what their stance is on a sick puppy with no insurance and no contract? Though as the puppy is a mongrel they may not be interested.
I thought a mongrel was more than one cross but I admit to not knowing about dogs? It's a brichon fris (?) cross.
It is registered in another version of the KC but I don't know which.
Yes puppy was large/old enough to leave. The others in the litter, 7 I think, left same day too.
There is absolutely no chance of puppy going back even if friends costs escalate to ten thousand pounds. Just not happening. She is totally in love with her.
Breeder is 100% legitimate, qualifications the lot.
Just to re-iterate, breeder is also upset and I am not questioning her at all. If she isn't able to insure pups due to insurance company restrictions then that is it. But I do feel that the costs of treatment should not be borne by my friend.
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# 11
peachyprice
Old 11-06-2011, 1:48 PM
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Did your friend meet the breeder and mum before the puppies were born? Can she therefore be 100% sure the puppy is 8+ weeks old?
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# 12
sophieschoice
Old 11-06-2011, 2:01 PM
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No she didn't. She didn't intend to buy one (she intended to buy a puppy at some point, a small breed - but only went 'for a look'!) but fell in love with her.
She has seen all the paperwork, record of innoculations from vet etc., and is in no doubt that puppy was 8 weeks old on day she bought her.
Friend was amazed at how much paperwork, keeping of records etc., that breeders have to do. It's a well run business.
Friend went for a look, went into town to buy bed, feeding stuff, toys etc., and in the hour she was gone three of the other litter had been sold too. There is no fault or blame attached to the breeder I just wanted to know, from a legal viewpoint, who should pay the escalating clinic fees?
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# 13
Fire Fox
Old 11-06-2011, 2:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophieschoice View Post
I thought a mongrel was more than one cross but I admit to not knowing about dogs? It's a brichon fris (?) cross.
It is registered in another version of the KC but I don't know which.
Yes puppy was large/old enough to leave. The others in the litter, 7 I think, left same day too.
There is absolutely no chance of puppy going back even if friends costs escalate to ten thousand pounds. Just not happening. She is totally in love with her.
Breeder is 100% legitimate, qualifications the lot.
Just to re-iterate, breeder is also upset and I am not questioning her at all. If she isn't able to insure pups due to insurance company restrictions then that is it. But I do feel that the costs of treatment should not be borne by my friend.

No she didn't. She didn't intend to buy one (she intended to buy a puppy at some point, a small breed - but only went 'for a look'!) but fell in love with her.
She has seen all the paperwork, record of innoculations from vet etc., and is in no doubt that puppy was 8 weeks old on day she bought her.
Friend was amazed at how much paperwork, keeping of records etc., that breeders have to do. It's a well run business.
Friend went for a look, went into town to buy bed, feeding stuff, toys etc., and in the hour she was gone three of the other litter had been sold too. There is no fault or blame attached to the breeder I just wanted to know, from a legal viewpoint, who should pay the escalating clinic fees?
If the infection was contracted at the breeders then morally I absolutely agree with you; but you are asking about the legal position. If this is a business transaction covered by the SoGA then the puppy is the same as any other purchase. Therein lies the problem because emotions are involved here, the fact that this is a living breathing creature should have been addressed in the contract.

As I said, in the eyes of the law it is not reasonable to expect the breeder to pay the full cost of diagnosis and 'repairs' which they have no say over. If the puppy is returned the breeder *may* choose to write the 'product' off, i.e. PTS.
What a difference a day makes, twenty four little hours.
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# 14
suki1964
Old 11-06-2011, 2:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophieschoice View Post
I thought a mongrel was more than one cross but I admit to not knowing about dogs? It's a brichon fris (?) cross.
It is registered in another version of the KC but I don't know which.
Yes puppy was large/old enough to leave. The others in the litter, 7 I think, left same day too.
There is absolutely no chance of puppy going back even if friends costs escalate to ten thousand pounds. Just not happening. She is totally in love with her.
Breeder is 100% legitimate, qualifications the lot.
Just to re-iterate, breeder is also upset and I am not questioning her at all. If she isn't able to insure pups due to insurance company restrictions then that is it. But I do feel that the costs of treatment should not be borne by my friend.
Sorry to hear wee one is so poorly and I hope the wee mite makes a recovery

I'd just like to point out there is no "other" KC. What your "reputable" breeder has issued are meaningless bits of paper

If your friend had bought from a breeder who registered with the KC the pup would have been 8 weeks old and had come with 6 weeks pet plan insurance
if you lend someone £20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it

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# 15
rising from the ashes
Old 11-06-2011, 4:10 PM
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I too suspect something a bid odd here in how much of a breeder this breeder is - as Suki says, the only "proper" registration body is the KC and a "proper" breeder would specialise in a specific breed ie full BF not produce mongrels. You wouldn't be able to KC reg a cross-breed - what is it crossed with?

Also, bear in mind the original cost paid (again, not trying to be harsh but point out facts) - a colleague of mine has recently bought a full BF and paid £1000 for her.

I really hope the poor wee one recovers soon, however, I don't know that your friend has much recourse - IMHO, at least the breeder is talking to her (some would've just washed their hands, esp on a pup with a low purchase price) and is willing to pay part of the costs.
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# 16
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Old 11-06-2011, 4:27 PM
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Having just bred a litter of bulldogs, I do know she could have insured her pups before 8 weeks as one of mine went to it's new home a couple of days before it was 8 weeks. It is free for the breeder to insure the pups so there is NO excuse not to do it. I insured mine with Petplan and it was all set up before the pups were due to go, so that when the new owners arrived, they had paperwork ready and I just had to ring Petplan before the pup left the house and the insurance was put in place. Disgraceful that this so called breeder did not do this.
Also impossible for the dog to be registered with Kennel Club. Only pure bred dogs are registered.
Most breeders will take the pup back and refund in full up to 2 weeks after the pup has gone to it's new home. This can happen for many different reasons.
I doubt if there is much your friend can do legally, but morally the breeder should definitely have some of the responsibility.
If however, this woman isn't actually a breeder and just fancied having a litter of pups, then I doubt you will get much joy.
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# 17
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Old 11-06-2011, 4:58 PM
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I bought a puppy from a breeder 3 years ago and she too was very ill after a couple of days - however the breeder had insured all the puppies with Petplan for the first 6 weeks after purchase so all I had to pay was the excess (£50)which the breeder refunded. So this puppy could have been insured by the breeder too - purchasers of puppies should insist on this.
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# 18
peachyprice
Old 11-06-2011, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophieschoice View Post
No she didn't. She didn't intend to buy one (she intended to buy a puppy at some point, a small breed - but only went 'for a look'!) but fell in love with her.
She has seen all the paperwork, record of innoculations from vet etc., and is in no doubt that puppy was 8 weeks old on day she bought her.
Friend was amazed at how much paperwork, keeping of records etc., that breeders have to do. It's a well run business.
Friend went for a look, went into town to buy bed, feeding stuff, toys etc., and in the hour she was gone three of the other litter had been sold too. There is no fault or blame attached to the breeder I just wanted to know, from a legal viewpoint, who should pay the escalating clinic fees?
I'm sorry to say, but like other above to me this 'breeder' sounds suspicious.

There's nowhere else to be registered, and she certainly wouldn't get mongrel (which is what they are) pups registered with the KC.

Established breeders with a good reputation will not just sell pups to amyone who turn up to see them and let them take them home the same day. Pups are usually found owners much earlier and the new owners have to wait until the pup is ready before they can collect. The perspective owners are 'interviewed' almost so that the breeder is sure their pups are going to a suitable homes.

It is very very suspicious that none of the pups had pre-arranged homes to go to and that she let four pups go in the course of one afternoon.

Did your friend actually see the mother?
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# 19
sophieschoice
Old 11-06-2011, 5:01 PM
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Thank you all for your replies.
Friend wanted a cross breed, ironically so it would be stronger, rather than a pure bred.
Pup isn't KC registered but I think (will find out for sure) that one or both parents is/are.
The lady IS definitely a fully fledged registered breeder and breeds all types of dogs both pure and cross.
There is no question of pup, if she recovers, being returned.
Very interesting point inspirespirit regarding Petplan insurance. Because of the cost involved in purchasing new puppies I would have thought it eminently sensible to have some form of insurance/guarantee in place.
Am awaiting call from friend to see if pup is out of isolation and she can then visit her.
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# 20
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Old 11-06-2011, 5:03 PM
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Quote:
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Did your friend actually see the mother?
Yes, saw mother and father.
I can only suppose (because I wasn't there) that the cross breeds don't entail the same kind of treatment/insurance/vetting etc., simply because they aren't pure bred and hence much cheaper.
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