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  • FIRST POST
    • bigc2910
    • By bigc2910 12th Feb 11, 9:54 AM
    • 131Posts
    • 262Thanks
    bigc2910
    What Does It Mean if There are No Title Deed Info Registered with LR?
    • #1
    • 12th Feb 11, 9:54 AM
    What Does It Mean if There are No Title Deed Info Registered with LR? 12th Feb 11 at 9:54 AM
    Apologies for long title!

    I am interested in buying a property, although feel it is overpriced but would like to put a serious but realistic offer in. Having read how to inform yourself on this website, I have tried to obtain the Title Deeds, amongst other things (boundaries etc) to see what the property was purchased for, as it needs refurbishment.

    I know I should offer what it's worth to me,and I am not wanting to hold the vendor to ransom in a 'i know what you paid for it', but I am now concerned as to why it would not be registered with the Land Registry?

    It's more for peace of mind. The property is marketed
    at 187,500, although two others have sold in the last 4 months for 110,000 & 140,000 pretty much identicle.

    Anyone have any advice? Many thanks
Page 1
    • mufi
    • By mufi 12th Feb 11, 10:24 AM
    • 550 Posts
    • 568 Thanks
    mufi
    • #2
    • 12th Feb 11, 10:24 AM
    • #2
    • 12th Feb 11, 10:24 AM
    Many properties that haven't changed hands for years are not registered - ours wasn't, as we bought it in the 80s.
    • bigc2910
    • By bigc2910 12th Feb 11, 11:13 AM
    • 131 Posts
    • 262 Thanks
    bigc2910
    • #3
    • 12th Feb 11, 11:13 AM
    • #3
    • 12th Feb 11, 11:13 AM
    Hi mufi,
    many thanks, so nothing sinister then! That's good to know. The property was built in the late 70's so maybe the vendor has always been there.

    Thanks for taking the time to reply.
    • mufi
    • By mufi 12th Feb 11, 11:20 AM
    • 550 Posts
    • 568 Thanks
    mufi
    • #4
    • 12th Feb 11, 11:20 AM
    • #4
    • 12th Feb 11, 11:20 AM
    It's a pleasure.

    However, if you've nothing better to do, read this thread started by SWMBO and be very afraid...

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=37265190&highlight=#post37265190
    • bigc2910
    • By bigc2910 12th Feb 11, 12:53 PM
    • 131 Posts
    • 262 Thanks
    bigc2910
    • #5
    • 12th Feb 11, 12:53 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Feb 11, 12:53 PM
    Thanks again!

    I've just emailed the Estate Agent to ask if the vendor holds the title deeds, or if not what happens!

    Very interesting, I'm glad I asked now, especially as it has and extension which is very close to next door!

    Thanks for your time
    • Richard Webster
    • By Richard Webster 12th Feb 11, 3:49 PM
    • 7,280 Posts
    • 6,930 Thanks
    Richard Webster
    • #6
    • 12th Feb 11, 3:49 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Feb 11, 3:49 PM
    I've just emailed the Estate Agent to ask if the vendor holds the title deeds, or if not what happens!
    Not the sort of question an EA is likely to know the answer to.

    Do you have any idea whether the seller has a mortgage at the moment and how long he has owned the property?

    Which local authority area is it in? Compulsory registration of title came in in stages between 1900 and 1990, most of it outside London being between 1970 and 1990. If the house had not changed hands since before it became compulsory area there won't be registered title. This is very common situation outside London.
    RICHARD WEBSTER

    As a retired conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful assuming any properties concerned are in England/Wales but I accept no liability for it.
    • bigc2910
    • By bigc2910 12th Feb 11, 6:11 PM
    • 131 Posts
    • 262 Thanks
    bigc2910
    • #7
    • 12th Feb 11, 6:11 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Feb 11, 6:11 PM
    Hi Richard

    Many thanks for your input. The EA has spoken with the vendor who has informed him that she has the deeds in her possesion, and has lived in the property since 1996? As you point out,he has missed the fact that its the actual registration of land not the actual deeds that was the root of my enquiry.

    Having held the deeds to my previous property, I understand that it is common practice now, since banks ceased to store them.

    It was my understanding that all property should be registered, we are in the North West,Manchester area would this cause issues with the purchase?

    Would it fall to the vendor or us as buyers to register? If so, is that expensive?

    Not sure if a mortgage is held, the marriage has broken down and the property is empty as she has moved into her new partners house and wants a quick sale.

    Sorry for all the questions, its just that I am interested in this and another property of which we have to make a decision on in the next few days.

    Thanks in anticipation of your reply and advice,
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Feb 11, 7:53 PM
    • 35,572 Posts
    • 38,713 Thanks
    G_M
    • #8
    • 12th Feb 11, 7:53 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Feb 11, 7:53 PM
    Registration is now compulsory in all areas when a sale takes place, so yes, if it is unregistered at present, you (or your solicitor) will have to register it in your name if you buy.

    If the current owner has only been there since 1996 I'm surprised it's not registered. See here for dates of compulsory registration.

    Unregistered property is slightly (possibly considerably!) more complex to deal with than registered land, so conveyancing fees are likely to be higher (25% more???)
    Last edited by G_M; 12-02-2011 at 8:02 PM.
    • mufi
    • By mufi 12th Feb 11, 8:09 PM
    • 550 Posts
    • 568 Thanks
    mufi
    • #9
    • 12th Feb 11, 8:09 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Feb 11, 8:09 PM
    Would it fall to the vendor or us as buyers to register? If so, is that expensive?
    Originally posted by bigc2910
    It falls to the vendor, or certainly did in our case.

    Before our case got complex, all our solicitor was going to charge was the charge levied by the Land Registry for registration. Even with the complications, the charges were only an additional 150 in total.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Feb 11, 8:19 PM
    • 35,572 Posts
    • 38,713 Thanks
    G_M
    Where land is registered, it is the buyer who updates registration with their name.

    Where land is unregistered, it is the buyer who applies for First Registration.

    (let's face it, once the vendor has their money why should they care, or have any incentive to do anything about registration!)
    • mufi
    • By mufi 12th Feb 11, 8:43 PM
    • 550 Posts
    • 568 Thanks
    mufi
    Where land is registered, it is the buyer who updates registration with their name.
    Originally posted by G_M
    Apologies if my post was unclear, but the thread is about unregistered land, and my reply was relevant to that - in our case it was the vendor's responsibility. Perhaps that's because we had a problem with the boundary.
    • bigc2910
    • By bigc2910 12th Feb 11, 10:24 PM
    • 131 Posts
    • 262 Thanks
    bigc2910
    Thanks once again Mufi for your experience, it seems as though it does need some clarification,and possibly a bargaining tool/incentive for us to show that we are serious and willing to deal with the additional costs/admin.

    And GM, many thanks according to your link it should have been registered when first built as it was compulsory in our district from 1974,the property was built in 1976?

    I really appreciate your assistance and feel more confident in the knowledge you have all offered in that I can now seek to clarify the issue instead of it cropping up and causing delays further into the process.

    Thats providing we have our offer accepted in the first place!
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Feb 11, 11:24 PM
    • 35,572 Posts
    • 38,713 Thanks
    G_M
    Apologies if my post was unclear, but the thread is about unregistered land, and my reply was relevant to that - in our case it was the vendor's responsibility. Perhaps that's because we had a problem with the boundary.
    Originally posted by mufi
    Yes.

    Normally, whether registered OR unregisterd, it is the buyer who registers their Title.

    I suspect that because you had a boundary issue, this had to be clarified before the sale could progress. So you (as owner rather than vendor) voluntarily registered your own property, in order to get the boundary clarified.

    Then you sold and the buyer registered their ownership in place of yours.
  • Moglet
    If land is unregistered and the house is remortgaged, does that trigger registration? If not is it more complicated to do the remortgage?
    • G_M
    • By G_M 13th Feb 11, 1:26 PM
    • 35,572 Posts
    • 38,713 Thanks
    G_M
    If land is unregistered and the house is remortgaged, does that trigger registration? If not is it more complicated to do the remortgage?
    Originally posted by Moglet
    Yes and n/a.
  • Moglet
    Thanks G_M.

    What would you think could have happened with my Father's house then. Compulsory registration came in Apr 1985 for where he lives but he remortgaged in 1986 or 1987 - his house is still unregistered.
    • Richard Webster
    • By Richard Webster 14th Feb 11, 11:06 AM
    • 7,280 Posts
    • 6,930 Thanks
    Richard Webster
    Thanks G_M.

    What would you think could have happened with my Father's house then. Compulsory registration came in Apr 1985 for where he lives but he remortgaged in 1986 or 1987 - his house is still unregistered.
    If he bought it before 1985 then as re-mortgaging (as opposed to a purchase) only became an act that induced compulsory first registration from 1998 it would not have had to have been registered when he re-mortgaged.
    RICHARD WEBSTER

    As a retired conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful assuming any properties concerned are in England/Wales but I accept no liability for it.
  • Moglet
    Thank you Richard for clearing that up. Yes, he bought the house in the late 70's and remortgaged in 86 or 87. He's just about to remortgage again so it looks like the house will need to be registered at this point.

    Hope Natwest's free legals will cover that for him.
    • Johnhowell
    • By Johnhowell 14th Feb 11, 8:18 PM
    • 580 Posts
    • 253 Thanks
    Johnhowell
    Thank you Richard for clearing that up. Yes, he bought the house in the late 70's and remortgaged in 86 or 87. He's just about to remortgage again so it looks like the house will need to be registered at this point.

    Hope Natwest's free legals will cover that for him.
    Originally posted by Moglet
    Once it is re-mortgaged and the bank registers it with HMLR, ask them for the deed pack - a lot of banks and building societies do not require them. And LOOK after it. Do not let them destory them. There are many details with the original deed pack that "disappear" if left to banks and HMLR. I like looking at the original plans rather than the latest Ordnance Survey base plan.

    John
    • Richard Webster
    • By Richard Webster 15th Feb 11, 8:57 AM
    • 7,280 Posts
    • 6,930 Thanks
    Richard Webster
    Once it is re-mortgaged and the bank registers it with HMLR, ask them for the deed pack - a lot of banks and building societies do not require them. And LOOK after it. Do not let them destory them. There are many details with the original deed pack that "disappear" if left to banks and HMLR. I like looking at the original plans rather than the latest Ordnance Survey base plan.

    John
    Yes, and it isn't just the literal "deeds" that are important - there could be consents for extensions under covenants, and copies of guarantees (and importantly the contracts/estimates leading to the guarantees for glazing, damp-proofing, timber treatment etc etc) planning and building regulation documents that will either be irreplaceable or will at least cost 10-20 a go to replace on a sale if lost.
    RICHARD WEBSTER

    As a retired conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful assuming any properties concerned are in England/Wales but I accept no liability for it.
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