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  • FIRST POST
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 6th Jan 11, 7:18 PM
    • 1,256Posts
    • 705Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Ground Source Heat Pumps
    • #1
    • 6th Jan 11, 7:18 PM
    Ground Source Heat Pumps 6th Jan 11 at 7:18 PM
    If anyone wants info on these, then please let me know, as have had one for over 5 years.
Page 48
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 7th Apr 17, 4:39 PM
    • 2,979 Posts
    • 1,754 Thanks
    matelodave
    I think it depends what sort of heating you've got. If steel or cast iron radiatorss, then it's probably a good idea. I'd guess that it's relatively easy to clog up a plate heat exchanger with crud

    We've got underfloor heating all over so it's just copper piping to brass manifolds and from there all the heating piping is plastic so there shouldn't be any iron in the water.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 7th Apr 17, 4:46 PM
    • 1,256 Posts
    • 705 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Have not had that problem on radiator circuits here, but have had a couple in the electrical cassette with rusty water. One actually ate through the cassette body, so it had to be changed. The new HE seems to have a stainless steel unit, so we will see!!
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • beardymarrow
    • By beardymarrow 7th Apr 17, 5:28 PM
    • 128 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    beardymarrow
    I think it depends what sort of heating you've got. If steel or cast iron radiatorss, then it's probably a good idea. I'd guess that it's relatively easy to clog up a plate heat exchanger with crud

    We've got underfloor heating all over so it's just copper piping to brass manifolds and from there all the heating piping is plastic so there shouldn't be any iron in the water.
    Originally posted by matelodave
    Cool, thanks both. For the sake of £80 and a couple of hours work I'll do it.
    • DeeWestern
    • By DeeWestern 14th Apr 17, 9:40 AM
    • 91 Posts
    • 32 Thanks
    DeeWestern
    Despite having bought hundreds of clips from Amazon, none of them were quite the right size to keep the filter in place


    Anyway, I ran the system without the filter for 10 minutes (as the filter has never captured any bits anyway) to see if the poor quality of it was causing the issue - but had the usual GT8/9 alarm after 5 mins.

    The temperatures went:
    45.9 / 34.6
    54.3 / 42.7 (2 min later)
    59.5 / 43.8 (5 min later, alarm triggered)

    I later switched off the system, got my new multimeter out, and set it to 20k.
    GT8: 3.87
    GT9: 4.66

    I switched the system on and read the temperatures a couple of mins later (takes ages to get in to this screen!) - it was 32.9 and 26.5, which would seem normal to me.

    If we unplug these two temperature probes, could anything bad happen and would this stop the alarms?

    @Patrol, I know you wanted to know if I had a manifold for my UFH... I've opened a panel in the floor I found, which is where the UFH heating starts. Not sure if this is what you were after:
    • beardymarrow
    • By beardymarrow 14th Apr 17, 3:29 PM
    • 128 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    beardymarrow
    Hi Dee,
    I've just been out and taken my filter out to check the circlip size (checked the filter while I was at it :-)).

    I measured the unsprung diameter of the circlip at 22mm. It must have therefore been 21.5mm or 22.5mm to make it what is known as a 20 or 21mm od circlip (designed to go into a 20 or 21mm bore hole and then expand to 21 or 22mm once in). I'm sorry that I didn't measure to the 0.5mm, but I didn't realise they went like that :-)
    These were measured on my pump which is an HT+ E9. YMMV.

    Something like this http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p82674/Internal-Circlip-21mm-Diameter-Un-Sprung-Dia-22.5mm/product_info.html or this http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p82673/Internal-Circlip-20mm-Diameter-Un-Sprung-Dia-21.5mm/product_info.html or equivalent on ebay should do the job.



    Edit: Or if you're worried about the filter not being right get this - https://jsenergi.co.uk/ivt-spare-parts/by-model/ivt-greenline-ht-e9/filter-ball-delsats-dn-20.html or https://jsenergi.co.uk/ivt-spare-parts/by-model/ivt-greenline-ht-e9/filter-ball-delsats-dn-25.html. Again, sorry but I don't know what the difference is between the DN20 and DN25. I would assume the DN20 is the internal one and the DN25 is the one on the collector loops, but don't hold me to that. Also obv. check they are compatible with your model.

    Beardy
    Last edited by beardymarrow; 14-04-2017 at 3:41 PM. Reason: Added a couple more links.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 15th Apr 17, 10:16 AM
    • 1,256 Posts
    • 705 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Yes DN20 is the heating side and DN25 is the ground loop.

    Would not agree on unplugging the 2 probes as 1) the pump may not even start and 2) they are there as a safety factor to prevent overheating.

    Pity I did not have time when my pump was changed over, as would have taken the probes off and posted them to you.
    Will try to see if our engineer has any suggestions, but will be after Easter when I can give you a answer.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • DeeWestern
    • By DeeWestern 15th Apr 17, 10:35 AM
    • 91 Posts
    • 32 Thanks
    DeeWestern
    Cheers guys, the probes seem to be fine from what I can see and the filter (whilst not perfect) isn't causing the problem either.

    Next steps may be to cut out the beeping machine, or knock down the house and start again, or replace with a gas boiler
    • beardymarrow
    • By beardymarrow 15th Apr 17, 10:51 AM
    • 128 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    beardymarrow
    You could try swapping two of the sensors over to see if the problem moves? Or a new temp sensor is https://jsenergi.co.uk/ivt-spare-parts/by-model/ivt-greenline-ht-plus-e9/001c-hetgasgivare-ntc-620mm-molex.html.

    One of the things I've found really helpful is the logger I bought as you can leave it running, see all the temps, valve positions etc. on a graph and see exactly what is going on. http://husdata.se/default.asp?fullweb=yes. Money well spent in my case.
    • DeeWestern
    • By DeeWestern 15th Apr 17, 11:00 AM
    • 91 Posts
    • 32 Thanks
    DeeWestern
    Cheers, does one of the temperature readings above seem off normal to you?
    • beardymarrow
    • By beardymarrow 15th Apr 17, 3:03 PM
    • 128 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    beardymarrow
    The ohm readings do look about right, but I suppose they only need to be slightly out for it to be a problem. My thinking being it's free to swap two sensors over (say GT8 and GT9 swap for GT10 and GT11), and see if the readings are OK on GT8 and GT9, but dodgy and GT10 and GT11) so worth a go before trying anything expensive.

    These are what they should be :-
    degC kohms
    0 15.280
    5 11.900
    10 9.330
    15 7.370
    20 5.870
    25 4.700
    30 3.790
    35 3.070
    40 2.510

    so your readings of 3.87 and 4.66kohms do seem roughly right.

    For interest, here is a graph of my GT8 and GT9 temps today (along with whether the compressor was on or and off and if the 3-way was sending to CH and DHW).

    As you can see about 9degC delta when producing CH and about 8degC delta when producing DHW.

    Edit: Do you only get a high GT8/GT9 delta only when producing CH, or also when producing DHW? If the delta is roughly right when producing DHW, then I guess we can rule out the possibility of one of the sensors being faulty.
    Last edited by beardymarrow; 15-04-2017 at 3:22 PM.
    • DeeWestern
    • By DeeWestern 16th Apr 17, 3:25 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 32 Thanks
    DeeWestern
    You could try swapping two of the sensors over to see if the problem moves?
    Originally posted by beardymarrow
    Unlike most of my plumbing, the wiring in the main GSHP box is really tidy, so it would be super difficult to move another couple of sensors over.

    I did open up the insulation and found the GT8 and 9 sensors:



    and I loosened the cables and put them in some ice water:


    GT8 reported a temperature of 1.8, and GT9 of 1.9 so they seem fine to me. When I wired them back up, I swapped the sensors over just in case it made a difference. Slightly less tidy wiring now!


    The alarms (which normally trigger under both DHW and CH) went off after 5 minutes. The readings were after I turned it back on, and CH was being generated:
    GT8: 38.0, GT9: 28.5 (start)
    GT8: 40.9, GT9: 28.5 (1 min later)
    GT8: 44.3, GT9: 28.5 (2 min later)
    GT8: 46.5, GT9: 28.7 (4 min later)
    GT8: 47.2, GT9: 29.1 (5 min later, alarm triggered)

    20 mins later GT8 was 50.4, GT9 was 32.4
    90 mins later GT8 was 49.5, GT9 was 31.8
    • beardymarrow
    • By beardymarrow 16th Apr 17, 3:44 PM
    • 128 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    beardymarrow
    Hi, I agree from that experiment that the sensors are fine. That was worth doing IMHO to rule that out. For the problem to exist on DHW and CH then logically it can only be one of a few internal things I would think. Condenser, pipe work to condenser or the p2 pump. If it was compressor or evaporator I think the problem would show in the gt10 gt11 or gt6, but I'd defer to lovesgshp as he knows 100 times more than me.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 16th Apr 17, 9:44 PM
    • 1,256 Posts
    • 705 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    I am also thinking that this could be the the circulating pump problem. You need to go into the service/installer menu and manual operation of all functions.
    Set the pump speed at 1, and feel for the vibration, then after a minute or so to 2 for the same check, which should be slightly more and then to 3.
    If all those increase, then it could be the second grundfoss pump that is restricting the flow.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 20th Apr 17, 9:44 AM
    • 1,256 Posts
    • 705 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    DW.
    Just had a answer regarding your problem from our senior engineer. Have pasted his reply below. Have not edited his English, but think it is clear enough:

    best to do a manual operating check. it is the P2 pump or prrabably the 3 way valve.
    press menu for 10 seconds. you go to installar service menu. go in menu 5 and there to manual operation. check if P2 on the left side is running unscrewing the front dot. if yes go to the three way valve and see if the level is moving under manaulmode. in my opinion it is the 3 way

    I know about Ice Energy.
    I know that a new firm is going to be refounded that will work with IVT hp; in the meanwhile we can give full support to your contacts.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • DeeWestern
    • By DeeWestern 20th Apr 17, 12:53 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 32 Thanks
    DeeWestern
    If by level on the 3 way valve we mean the red dot that rotates, we have looked at this before and seem to have ruled it out.

    Which bit of the 3 way valve should be unscrewed?

    PS Please pass on my thanks to him!
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 20th Apr 17, 2:18 PM
    • 1,256 Posts
    • 705 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    By the dot he means the central part of the P2 pump, where there is a screw you can open to bleed air etc. So you can check if the pump vanes are turning, as they do sometimes stick, just by putting in a screwdriver and seeing if they move freely.
    I will thank him for you and it is good that he is also willing to help IVT users as well after IceEnergy. Could not get him to set up a UK base though.

    Without me looking back, is your 3 way valve a LK unit?
    Last edited by lovesgshp; 20-04-2017 at 2:23 PM. Reason: extra question
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 22nd Apr 17, 6:10 PM
    • 1,256 Posts
    • 705 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    DW:
    If P2 seems ok, then I do suggest also that you change the 3 way valve. The last readings you gave, look to being on a DHW setting, although they were heating.
    One of my clients also had a problem, as his floors were getting too hot.
    It could be the electronic part of the valve is not fully opening the manual side although it seems to be from the test.
    Let me know the full model number from your existing valve and I will let you know the LK model, Otherwise Beardy may be able to help, with where to obtain. Plumbers took mine as otherwise you could have had it and just paid the postage!!!
    Changeover is about 20 mins or so with the sidepanel removed.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • beardymarrow
    • By beardymarrow 22nd Apr 17, 10:29 PM
    • 128 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    beardymarrow
    DW:
    If P2 seems ok, then I do suggest also that you change the 3 way valve. The last readings you gave, look to being on a DHW setting, although they were heating.
    One of my clients also had a problem, as his floors were getting too hot.
    It could be the electronic part of the valve is not fully opening the manual side although it seems to be from the test.
    Let me know the full model number from your existing valve and I will let you know the LK model, Otherwise Beardy may be able to help, with where to obtain. Plumbers took mine as otherwise you could have had it and just paid the postage!!!
    Changeover is about 20 mins or so with the sidepanel removed.
    Originally posted by lovesgshp
    I had the lk525 emv110-m 230v fitted by ice. Any plumber would be able to supply and do it as it comes with the same plug as the old one, so no wiring needs to be done. Mine was supplied and fitted by ice under warranty, but that's obviously not an option any more.

    Last edited by beardymarrow; 22-04-2017 at 10:38 PM. Reason: Added picture
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 22nd Apr 17, 11:09 PM
    • 1,256 Posts
    • 705 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Make sure you change the whole unit and not just the electronic part.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 2nd May 17, 9:07 PM
    • 1,256 Posts
    • 705 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Any updates DW? Have you, or are you going to change the 3 way valve?
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
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