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What is JSA under the hardship provision?
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# 1
geordie joe
Old 02-12-2010, 10:03 PM
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Default What is JSA under the hardship provision?

Hi

What is JSA under the hardship provision?

I am single and live in rented (council) accommodation.

The reason I ask is because I received a letter today saying that they (job centre) have evidence that I refused to accept a job offer opportunity. And if I don't have a good reason my JSA will be affected and I will have to claim JSA under the hardship provision.

Reading on, the reason seems to be that on 31 August, while I was signing on, they printed the details of a job and I did not apply for it. I am not too worried about that, as the job was advertised by a recruitment agency, for a company in a city 15 miles from me. When I told them I relied on public transport and the earliest I could get into the city, to the main bus station, was 8:45 they said the job was across the city from the bus station and if I was at the bus station at 8:45 there was no way I could get to the job on time. So, don't even bother to apply for it, you can't get there in time.

What does worry me is that I really want a job, and I get the guy to print out any job description that looks remotely suitable. But more than half of them get binned without being applied for because when I get home a I find a reason for them not being suitable. Either I find I can't get there, or can't get back, or when I ring up for an app form I find they want someone with a skill or experience I don't have and they say I have no chance of getting the job.

I've never kept a record of the jobs I didn't apply for, only those I did. So if they go through all the ones that were printed out for me I will never remember the reasons why I didn't apply for them.

So, according to the letter, I could get my JSA stopped and be given a claim form for JSA under the hardship provision, but what exactly does that mean?
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# 2
tsimehC
Old 02-12-2010, 10:20 PM
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You should always apply for jobs given by the JCP, suitable or not. I know it's a little too late but remember that in the future. It's not worth the trouble. :/

As for hardship, I believe that you get up to 40% of your normal JSA rate until your sanction ends. I would also put in an appeal against the original decision but make sure you get some legal advice from somewhere like Citizen's Advice on how best to present your case.
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# 3
geordie joe
Old 02-12-2010, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tsimehC View Post
You should always apply for jobs given by the JCP, suitable or not. I know it's a little too late but remember that in the future. It's not worth the trouble. :/
Thanks, I will from now on, but they didn't tell me that I had to apply for every job I expressed an interest in at the time. If they had I would have wrote the reason I didn't apply for the job on the sheet and kept it. They only told me to keep a record of every job I apply for so I could prove I was looking for work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsimehC View Post
As for hardship, I believe that you get up to 40% of your normal JSA rate until your sanction ends. I would also put in an appeal against the original decision but make sure you get some legal advice from somewhere like Citizen's Advice on how best to present your case.
Oh dear, I can't live on 40% of JSA, so if the worst happens I will be seeking professional advice.

Thanks for your reply.
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# 4
dmg24
Old 02-12-2010, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tsimehC View Post
You should always apply for jobs given by the JCP, suitable or not. I know it's a little too late but remember that in the future. It's not worth the trouble. :/

As for hardship, I believe that you get up to 40% of your normal JSA rate until your sanction ends. I would also put in an appeal against the original decision but make sure you get some legal advice from somewhere like Citizen's Advice on how best to present your case.
I think you mean 40% off the normal rate?
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# 5
jay_1978
Old 02-12-2010, 11:01 PM
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This whole thing sounds dodgy to me, Now every job the jobcentre have give me I have applied for, However some of them are to call the agency or the company, If they then say "ok send us your cv by mail, or were still taking applicants" How can I prove that ? If I was you mate I would seriously kick up a huge fuss and talk about taking this alot further, This is just one of those excuses they are looking for, Don't they know what having no money will do to someone ? It annoys the !!!! out of me this, Basically I think they are trying it on and if you say your going to take it further by either seeing your mp or start talking about your human rights being infringed then I think they will back down .. Good luck mate

Oh and I am sure hardship is about 50 a week

Last edited by jay_1978; 02-12-2010 at 11:04 PM.
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# 6
dmg24
Old 02-12-2010, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jay_1978 View Post
This whole thing sounds dodgy to me, Now every job the jobcentre have give me I have applied for, However some of them are to call the agency or the company, If they then say "ok send us your cv by mail, or were still taking applicants" How can I prove that ? If I was you mate I would seriously kick up a huge fuss and talk about taking this alot further, This is just one of those excuses they are looking for, Don't they know what having no money will do to someone ? It annoys the !!!! out of me this, Basically I think they are trying it on and if you say your going to take it further by either seeing your mp or start talking about your human rights being infringed then I think they will back down .. Good luck mate

Oh and I am sure hardship is about 50 a week
If you send your cv by mail you can get proof of postage, or even just an email from the agency to prove that they have received it.

If the OP is 25 or over, single and with no disability, the hardship rate is 39.27 per week.
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# 7
jay_1978
Old 02-12-2010, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dmg24 View Post
If you send your cv by mail you can get proof of postage, or even just an email from the agency to prove that they have received it.

If the OP is 25 or over, single and with no disability, the hardship rate is 39.27 per week.

Ok I appreciate your reply but I am not sure what agency's you have used. I have applied for many vacancies through different agency's by phone and they say " Ok give me your name and number and We'll get back to you " But then they don't, What proof would I have to say I called ? I do think the jobcentre are really trying it on here with this. I understand they want you in work and some people try it on but surely they should aim for those who have never paid a penny into the system, It seems folk who have worked hard in the past and paid taxes into the system but are now on hard times are the ones being caught in this perverse system, Like I have already said I have applied for loads via agency's and I may not have kept copy's in the past but I do now, Does this mean Its my own fault if I cannot prove a accusation from the jobcentre that I have not applied for a certain vacancy ? I am sorry but it sounds screwed up to me and I hope the OP gets in to the JC and puts the scares up them, They will back down then
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# 8
dmg24
Old 02-12-2010, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jay_1978 View Post
Ok I appreciate your reply but I am not sure what agency's you have used. I have applied for many vacancies through different agency's by phone and they say " Ok give me your name and number and We'll get back to you " But then they don't, What proof would I have to say I called ? I do think the jobcentre are really trying it on here with this. I understand they want you in work and some people try it on but surely they should aim for those who have never paid a penny into the system, It seems folk who have worked hard in the past and paid taxes into the system but are now on hard times are the ones being caught in this perverse system, Like I have already said I have applied for loads via agency's and I may not have kept copy's in the past but I do now, Does this mean Its my own fault if I cannot prove a accusation from the jobcentre that I have not applied for a certain vacancy ? I am sorry but it sounds screwed up to me and I hope the OP gets in to the JC and puts the scares up them, They will back down then
I would keep records of all calls, who I spoke to etc. I would do this as standard whether I needed it for the JCP or not, then when you get a call back you know what you have done with that application to date. It is a good habit to get into, and will make you look much more organised and professional.

In the OP's case all they need to do is prove that they spoke to the agency (I assume it was the agency that said it would be too far?), and they said it was not worth applying. Even if the agency will not provide this information, he should be able to show that he called by producing an itemised bill.
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# 9
NickyBat
Old 03-12-2010, 7:36 AM
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I notice that generally the replies are to have a go at the jobcentre, what you all seem to forget is that these rules come from above ie the government, they are not made by jc staff - they just have to follow them, and whilst getting in touch with your local MP is a great idea maybe you need to be asking them why they voted these rules through in the first place.
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# 10
Hammyman
Old 03-12-2010, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by geordie joe View Post
Hi
When I told them I relied on public transport and the earliest I could get into the city, to the main bus station, was 8:45 they said the job was across the city from the bus station and if I was at the bus station at 8:45 there was no way I could get to the job on time. So, don't even bother to apply for it, you can't get there in time.
Sorry, rubbish excuse. I live in the middle of nowhere in a rural county in the north of England with a total population of 300,000, 11,000 of those in my small town. We get two buses an hour - one in each direction. First bus is at 6.05am.

So yes, you could have got to work but you'd just have to get up earlier. And before you start bleating on about it taking an hour to work, thats the normal commuting time for millions of people in this country with millions sometimes doing more.
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# 11
geordie joe
Old 03-12-2010, 8:20 PM
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Sorry, rubbish excuse.
There's always one!

what would you know, you don't live in dorset. I can tell you now, down here the buses in rural dorset are far worse than they are in rural parts of the NE. I know, I come from the NE.


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Originally Posted by Hammyman View Post
We get two buses an hour - one in each direction. First bus is at 6.05am.
I live in a small town in Dorset, the buses to the city in question runs once every two hours. The first one arrives at the city bus station at 8.45

You might have buses at 6.05am, but our little bus depot doesn't open until 7.00am

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So yes, you could have got to work but you'd just have to get up earlier.
So no, I couldn't get to work in time, and getting up earlier would not help as the first bus does not arrive in the city in time.

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Originally Posted by Hammyman View Post
And before you start bleating on about it taking an hour to work, thats the normal commuting time for millions of people in this country with millions sometimes doing more.
I wasn't going to bleat on about anything. I didn't care about the time taken to get to work, I've travelled longer than that to get to work.

If you'd actually read my post, instead of skimming through it looking for things to pick on people for, you would have read that I was told not to apply for it as I would be able to get there in time as there was a further journey after getting to the bus station.

This was a recruitment agency, they told me not bother. If I had insisted on applying they simply would not have put me forward to the employer.

As soon as I old them the town I lived in they asked if I had my own transport. When I said no, they said forget it. I have no doubt that they have had many applicants for jobs over the years and knew from previous experience that anyone in my town would not be able to get to that part of the city in time using the buses.
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# 12
geordie joe
Old 03-12-2010, 8:32 PM
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Originally Posted by NickyBat View Post
I notice that generally the replies are to have a go at the jobcentre, what you all seem to forget is that these rules come from above ie the government, they are not made by jc staff - they just have to follow them, and whilst getting in touch with your local MP is a great idea maybe you need to be asking them why they voted these rules through in the first place.
I'm not knocking the people in the JC, I'm just annoyed that I wasn't told to keep a note of jobs I didn't apply for, and the reason why.

I'm sure when I first signed on this wasn't necessary, it's only recently the government said it was going to crack down on people who refuse work. I guess the way they are doing it is by saying "If you showed an interest in a job, you MUST apply for it"

But I've "shown an interest" in a few jobs then found they weren't suitable for some reason so didn't apply for them. I didn't keep a note of why not, and if I get asked I may not be able to remember the reason why I didn't apply for them.
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# 13
jay_1978
Old 03-12-2010, 9:00 PM
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@ geordie joe ... Just out of interest mate what has happened since u got the letter ? Has your money been sanctioned or you waiting ? I think it should be illegal that just because you can't prove the jobcentre wrong that your gonna be hit hard, What happened to innocent until proven guilty ?
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dmg24
Old 03-12-2010, 9:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jay_1978 View Post
@ geordie joe ... Just out of interest mate what has happened since u got the letter ? Has your money been sanctioned or you waiting ? I think it should be illegal that just because you can't prove the jobcentre wrong that your gonna be hit hard, What happened to innocent until proven guilty ?
The JCP DM will make a decision based on the balance of probabilities, they will make this decision once the claimant has submitted their reasons for not applying.
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jay_1978
Old 03-12-2010, 9:55 PM
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The JCP DM will make a decision based on the balance of probabilities, they will make this decision once the claimant has submitted their reasons for not applying.
So your only means of income can be taken just by a probability? I can see them tossing a coin and deciding shall we ruin this persons life or not lol... I know I rant on about this but it annoys me that someone who puts into the system can really have the only income they have taken from them when we have migrants who actually pay nothing in yet take out, Surely unless the jobcentre can 100% prove you have not gone for that job then they have no proof?
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by geordie joe View Post
Hi



What does worry me is that I really want a job, and I get the guy to print out any job description that looks remotely suitable. But more than half of them get binned without being applied for because when I get home a I find a reason for them not being suitable.

If you ask them to print it out for you then you don't have to apply*. It's when they tell you or give you a job to apply for that you must or risk losing JSA.

* I specifically asked this when I was signing on earlier this year and was told that if I saw a job I fancied on the screen during my signing on I could get a print out and choose whether to apply for it. Sometimes getting a printout is the only way to see all of the job details IME.

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geordie joe
Old 03-12-2010, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jay_1978 View Post
@ geordie joe ... Just out of interest mate what has happened since u got the letter ? Has your money been sanctioned or you waiting ? I think it should be illegal that just because you can't prove the jobcentre wrong that your gonna be hit hard, What happened to innocent until proven guilty ?
Nothing has happened yet, there is a space on the back of the letter for me to provide the reason why I didn't apply for the job. It has to be returned within 7 days of the date on the letter (next Wed) if I want them to consider the reason when they decide what to do. The JC doesn't open until Tuesday so I will drop it in then. I live 2 mins from the JC, but sign on on Tue morning anyway, so I'll take it with me then.

I sign on with the same man every time, and he's a good bloke, we get on well and I've told him which jobs I have not applied for, and why. So he's knows there was a good reason for not applying for the jobs.

I have also re-read the letter and it actually says that the reason they think I refused the job offer opportunity is because there is no reason recorded on their computer system.

So I'm thinking maybe when I have told him I didn't apply for the job he has ticked some box to say I didn't apply for it and not entered the reason.

With a bit of luck, when I show him the letter, he will say "That's my fault, I told the system you didn't apply for it and forgot to say why, I'll sort it for you".
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# 18
geordie joe
Old 03-12-2010, 10:36 PM
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If you ask them to print it out for you then you don't have to apply*. It's when they tell you or give you a job to apply for that you must or risk losing JSA.

* I specifically asked this when I was signing on earlier this year and was told that if I saw a job I fancied on the screen during my signing on I could get a print out and choose whether to apply for it. Sometimes getting a printout is the only way to see all of the job details IME.

Thanks for that, when I first signed on they showed me a list of vacancies on the screen and said that if I saw any I fancied just tell them and they would print the full details for me. They told me to keep a record of any I actually applied for as I had to do 3 things to look for work each fortnight.

They also said not to worry if there wasn't 3 jobs to apply for as looking at the job section in the paper, or asking friends would count as doing something to look for work.

As I said earlier, I think that was the rules at the time, but the new government has decided to "go after" people who refuse work, and this is one of the ways they are doing it. Catch as many people out as they can so they will have a good number to publish later.

It would make a good headline for them

"We have punished a million people for refusing a work offer"

They'd love that, every time someone mentions the unemployed they could say "it's not the governments fault, there are jobs available, and to prove it we've caught a million people refusing a job offer."

Unemployment then ceases to be the governments problem , if your unemployed it's because you are refusing job offers.
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jay_1978
Old 03-12-2010, 10:59 PM
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Yea I think they are just doing a short burst of random picking people and checking, Personally I think if you just accept it then they have what they want but I have heard of loads of people winning the appeal, Its a case of fight back and watch them back down
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# 20
Hammyman
Old 04-12-2010, 1:53 AM
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Originally Posted by geordie joe View Post
There's always one!

what would you know, you don't live in dorset. I can tell you now, down here the buses in rural dorset are far worse than they are in rural parts of the NE. I know, I come from the NE.
Yes...Tyneside or similar judging by the user name. I'm in East Yorkshire. Some of the larger towns in Tyneside have a larger population than our entire county.
.[/QUOTE]
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