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SORN Fine
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# 1
MrsPorridge
Old 31-10-2010, 9:41 AM
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Default SORN Fine

DH has just realised that he should be submitting SORN for his 7 vintage motorcycles which he has not ridden for over 15 years and which are kept in a garage. We have just registered SORN online and it has come up that it is an offence and we may be fined. Anyone know if we will be fined and approx. how much?
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# 2
opinions4u
Old 31-10-2010, 9:46 AM
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From memory, it's 80 a go but if it goes to court can escalate to 1,000.

Edit: Linky to confirm that

Last edited by opinions4u; 31-10-2010 at 9:49 AM.
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# 3
Keith
Old 31-10-2010, 10:01 AM
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If they've never been SORN then you don't need to start doing it, as long as he's owned them for 15 years.

If they were untaxed since 1998 then it's fine and DVLA won't be interested.
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# 4
mikey72
Old 31-10-2010, 11:05 AM
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Sorn only applies to vehicles that were taxed when the sorn came in, then the tax expired.
If you were to tax one of the bikes, and then take it off the road again, then you would need to keep sorning it.
I don't know how the system would cope now you have applied to sorn them, as it would believe you have had tax on them, then not declared since sorn came in.
See what they send you when they acknowledge it.
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# 5
Wig
Old 31-10-2010, 11:08 AM
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There is a date, before which, if they were not taxed - simply registered in your name, then you don't need to declare SORN ever. I don't know that date without looking it up.

If you change the vehicle keeper after that date or declare SORN or tax them, you will have just started a whole lot of hassle for yourself, namely that you won't receive a fine (this time), but you will now have to renew the SORN for each bike every year from now on and if you don't, you will be fined.


If you haven't done it for them all yet - STOP registering them SORN until you know what that date is.

Last edited by Wig; 31-10-2010 at 11:11 AM.
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# 6
HappyMJ
Old 31-10-2010, 11:15 AM
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It isn't called a fine even opinions4u linky doesn't call it a fine. It's a penalty. It's a civil matter which is rarely if ever brought to court. You will only be brought to court if you are caught with an untaxed or sorned motor on the road. So you can safely ignore any penalties for having a motor which has not been sorned as long as you are keeping them off the road. You will get a series of letters for about 1 year then the penalty is written off.
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# 7
molerat
Old 31-10-2010, 11:17 AM
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When SORN isn't needed

SORN isn’t needed if:
  • you no longer have the vehicle and DVLA has been informed
  • your insurance company has written off the vehicle
  • you take the vehicle abroad permanently
  • you apply for a refund of vehicle tax and don’t keep the vehicle
  • you are keeping the vehicle off the road and untaxed for less than 14 days
  • your vehicle was last taxed before 31 January 1998
www.helpforheroes.org.uk/donations.html
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# 8
mikey72
Old 31-10-2010, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMJ View Post
It isn't called a fine even opinions4u linky doesn't call it a fine. It's a penalty. It's a civil matter which is rarely if ever brought to court. You will only be brought to court if you are caught with an untaxed or sorned motor on the road. So you can safely ignore any penalties for having a motor which has not been sorned as long as you are keeping them off the road. You will get a series of letters for about 1 year then the penalty is written off.
It's a penalty, as it's payable automatically. Don't ignore it, or it'll go to court, and you'll pay a lot more.
If you do receive any penalties, phone or write and explain what has happened, they will normally cancel them.
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# 9
Wig
Old 31-10-2010, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMJ View Post
It isn't called a fine even opinions4u linky doesn't call it a fine. It's a penalty. It's a civil matter which is rarely if ever brought to court. You will only be brought to court if you are caught with an untaxed or sorned motor on the road. So you can safely ignore any penalties for having a motor which has not been sorned as long as you are keeping them off the road. You will get a series of letters for about 1 year then the penalty is written off.
The part (SORN fine) that you refer to is not a penalty or a fine (same thing really), it is a "supplement" or "supplemental charge" recovered as a debt in a civil court. Which is why they don't often go to court for it.
But there is still a possibility of being 'fined'

31C (1) A person guilty of an offence under section 31A(1) is liable on summary conviction to— (a) an excise penalty of—
(i) level 3 on the standard scale, or
(ii) five times the amount of vehicle excise duty chargeable in respect of the vehicle concerned,
whichever is the greater; and

(b) if subsection (3) applies to him, an excise penalty (in addition to any under paragraph (a)) of an amount that complies with subsection (2).



(2) An amount complies with this subsection if it— (a) is not less than the greater of—
(i) the maximum of the penalty to which the person is liable under subsection (1)(a), and
(ii) the amount of the supplement (if any) that became payable by him by reason of non-renewal of the vehicle licence for the vehicle that last expired before the commission of the offence; and

(b) is not more than the greatest of—
(i) the maximum of the penalty to which the person is liable under subsection (1)(a),
(ii) the amount mentioned in paragraph (a)(ii), and
(iii) ten times the amount of vehicle excise duty chargeable in respect of the vehicle.



(3) This subsection applies to the person if— (a) he was, at the time proceedings for the offence were commenced, the person in whose name the vehicle concerned was registered under this Act, and

(b) that vehicle was unlicensed throughout the period beginning with the commission of the offence and ending with the commencement of those proceedings.

The bit in blue only applies if you have ignored any letters and still subsequently refused to SORN or licence the vehicle


Last edited by Wig; 31-10-2010 at 11:49 AM.
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# 10
Gloomendoom
Old 31-10-2010, 1:29 PM
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As has been said, if they haven't been taxed since 1998 then you don't need to SORN them. IIRC once you do SORN them you will need to remember to do so every year from then on.

You may have, unnecessarily, made a rod for your own back, but you have committed no offence.
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# 11
HappyMJ
Old 31-10-2010, 2:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wig View Post
The part (SORN fine) that you refer to is not a penalty or a fine (same thing really), it is a "supplement" or "supplemental charge" recovered as a debt in a civil court. Which is why they don't often go to court for it.
But there is still a possibility of being 'fined'

31C (1) A person guilty of an offence under section 31A(1) is liable on summary conviction to (a) an excise penalty of
(i) level 3 on the standard scale, or
(ii) five times the amount of vehicle excise duty chargeable in respect of the vehicle concerned,
whichever is the greater; and

(b) if subsection (3) applies to him, an excise penalty (in addition to any under paragraph (a)) of an amount that complies with subsection (2).



(2) An amount complies with this subsection if it (a) is not less than the greater of
(i) the maximum of the penalty to which the person is liable under subsection (1)(a), and
(ii) the amount of the supplement (if any) that became payable by him by reason of non-renewal of the vehicle licence for the vehicle that last expired before the commission of the offence; and

(b) is not more than the greatest of
(i) the maximum of the penalty to which the person is liable under subsection (1)(a),
(ii) the amount mentioned in paragraph (a)(ii), and
(iii) ten times the amount of vehicle excise duty chargeable in respect of the vehicle.



(3) This subsection applies to the person if (a) he was, at the time proceedings for the offence were commenced, the person in whose name the vehicle concerned was registered under this Act, and

(b) that vehicle was unlicensed throughout the period beginning with the commission of the offence and ending with the commencement of those proceedings.

The bit in blue only applies if you have ignored any letters and still subsequently refused to SORN or licence the vehicle

Really should quote 31(A) and 31(B) of that Act. It is an offence to have an unlicensed vehicle. It is an exemption at the relevant time the vehicle is neither kept nor used on a public road. It is not a criminal offence to not SORN a vehicle. It simply is a civil matter between DVLA and yourself.

And yes there is a difference between an "criminal" fine and a "civil" penalty. You could go to jail for not paying a fine and not paying a penalty will only lead to a CCJ in the worst case scenario.
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# 12
HappyMJ
Old 31-10-2010, 2:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey72 View Post
It's a penalty, as it's payable automatically. Don't ignore it, or it'll go to court, and you'll pay a lot more.
If you do receive any penalties, phone or write and explain what has happened, they will normally cancel them.
Agreed they usually do just cancel the penalty as they cannot defend the case in court without spending more than they can recover. It isn't worth it for the DVLA to defend cases so it's much easier to send as many letters as possible with more stern words each time then they sell the debt to a DCA and it never goes any further. Apart from lots of letters.
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# 13
vaio
Old 31-10-2010, 2:30 PM
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I'm not so sure they will cancel ordinary ones on the grounds of cost to recover as these costs will just be added to the original penalty via an almost entirely automated system.

Having said that, I have had them cancelled on historic vehicles using the argument that sorn was introduced to stop loss of revenue to the government but as historic vehicles don't pay tax then there is no possibility of a loss
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# 14
MrsPorridge
Old 31-10-2010, 7:27 PM
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Thanks all for your responses - you have put our minds at rest.
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# 15
Wig
Old 02-11-2010, 8:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMJ View Post
Really should quote 31(A) and 31(B) of that Act. It is an offence to have an unlicensed vehicle. It is an exemption at the relevant time the vehicle is neither kept nor used on a public road. It is not a criminal offence to not SORN a vehicle. It simply is a civil matter between DVLA and yourself.

And yes there is a difference between an "criminal" fine and a "civil" penalty. You could go to jail for not paying a fine and not paying a penalty will only lead to a CCJ in the worst case scenario.
Didn't quote them cos there was no need.


31B Exceptions to section 31A
(1) A person ( “the registered keeper") in whose name an unlicensed vehicle is registered at any particular time ( “the relevant time") does not commit an offence under section 31A at that time if any of the following conditions are satisfied.

(2) The first condition is that the registered keeper—
(a) is not at the relevant time the person keeping the vehicle, and

(b) if previously he was the person keeping the vehicle, he has by the relevant time complied with any requirements under section 22(1)(d)—
(i) that are prescribed for the purposes of this condition, and
(ii) that he is required to have complied with by the relevant or any earlier time.


(3) The second condition is that—
(a) the registered keeper is at the relevant time the person keeping the vehicle,

(b) at the relevant time the vehicle is neither kept nor used on a public road, and

(c) the registered keeper has by the relevant time complied with any requirements under section 22(1D)—
(i) that are prescribed for the purposes of this condition, and
(ii) that he is required to have complied with by the relevant or any earlier time.

Section 22(1D) Is a requirement to declare SORN (or to declare change of keeper), If you don't declare SORN you will commit a criminal offence. At least that's the way I read it.

Last edited by Wig; 02-11-2010 at 8:47 PM.
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# 16
1st_aide
Old 18-02-2011, 9:37 AM
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Default SORN ran out about 2 years ago... 80 fine or more?

Hi,

I registered my motorbike SORN about 3 years ago. I have since moved and for various reasons l didn't think to reSORN the bike and have moved a couple of times since so did not get any mail forwarded.
I now want to put it back on the road. I can see that when I try to tax it I will have to pay the 80 fine. But under what circumstances does it become more than 80?

PS. I'm new to this should I start a new thread?
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# 17
spiro
Old 18-02-2011, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1st_aide View Post
Hi,

I registered my motorbike SORN about 3 years ago. I have since moved and for various reasons l didn't think to reSORN the bike and have moved a couple of times since so did not get any mail forwarded.
I now want to put it back on the road. I can see that when I try to tax it I will have to pay the 80 fine. But under what circumstances does it become more than 80?

PS. I'm new to this should I start a new thread?
Did you update you driving licence address and registered keeper address for the bike each time you moved? I suspect not because the DVLA send out SORN reminders. Potentially you could be open for 3 different penalties, failure to notify change of driver address, failure to notify change of keeper address and failure to renew SORN.
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# 18
1st_aide
Old 18-02-2011, 11:35 AM
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Thanks, my drivers license has been kept up to date with the correct address. But I didn't think this was necessarily linked with a vehicle (?).
When I moved I did not update the registered keepers address. Is this liable for a separate fine?
Am I looking at:
80 for not updating SORN, as I did not get the reminder because I had not updated the keepers address another XX fine?
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