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Deceased Estate - Overpayment of Benefits from DWP
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# 1
linnyhinny
Old 23-09-2010, 1:26 PM
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Question Deceased Estate - Overpayment of Benefits from DWP

I am the Executor for my Father's estate who died aged 89 in October 2009. When probate was granted in March 2010 a letter shortly arrived after that from the DWP requesting information of capital at point of death which at the time was £10541 before funeral expenses, debts etc had been paid.

The DWP wanted Bank statements from Dec 1998 to Oct 2003 as apparently there was discrepancies as to capital held and what my Father was receiving in benefits. The Bank could only provide statements from July 2001 which I submitted to DWP. After further correspondence from them I have received a bill owing of £12562.98. (Income Support £2592.12 Dec 98-Oct 03 & Pension Credit £9970.86 Oct 03 to Oct 09

I have requested information from DWP asking how they arrive at this figure and all they have sent are complicated spreadsheet type statements. Apparently in 2001 he had approx. £37000 in the Bank (which was news to me as I didn't get involved in his finances until 2007 after ill health diagnosis).

I do know he bought a field in 2005 for £30000 (his hobby was horses & he wanted it for my daughter to keep her horse in and probably as an investment as well) then in June 2007 he bought a new car for £7400 so this would have brought his capital down considerably, though I don't think the DWP have considered this. Also in July 2007 a representative from the DWP visited my Dad to fill in new benefit forms after recommendation from his social worker and it turned out he was entitled to Attendance Allowance, an increase in Pension Credit and a disabled element of Pension to a total of £232.20 per week

I naturally want to appeal against this figure as the balance of monies in the Executor account is now approx £7800 which my two children are inheriting plus the house my Dad lived in. (I've been left the Field).

I have been in touch with Citizen's Advice who said I should fill in a GL24 Appeal Form.

I know my Father was not an educated man and like a lot of old people may not have disclosed all his savings when filling in the original application forms through no maliciousness as the majority of his savings had been in some kind of bonds which he probably thought at the time you didn't need to disclose.

The advice I would like from anyone else is has anyone successfully appealed in a similar circumstance and on what grounds? Can the DWP go back this far? as I want to be careful in what I write on the appeal form. My children are both students so cannot pay the difference in the shortfall & also I don't have that sort of spare money to lend them.
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# 2
woodbine
Old 23-09-2010, 4:44 PM
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Looks like a complicated one,although some of the figures would suggest the DWP are right,if i were you i would seek specialist legal advice
this link may help you find a specialist in your area
http://www.communitylegaladvice.org....torysearch.jsp
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# 3
Vader123
Old 23-09-2010, 5:21 PM
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I would not distribute any money from the estate until you have legal advice.

Vader
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# 4
real1314
Old 23-09-2010, 7:00 PM
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If your dad failed to declare his correct circumstances, innocently, or deliberately, then the money would have to be repaid.

The spending on the field and a new car would not be considered reasonable whilst receiving means tested benefit support.

Unfortunately for you and your kids, if there isn't enough cash left in the estate, you'll have to sell either the field or the house to repay the debt. It's not really fair that taxpayers should have provided support that should not have been due, so that you / your children can have a bigger inheritance is it?
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# 5
anmarj
Old 23-09-2010, 7:15 PM
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the reduction in capital which decreased his savings is something that he could of reported but if he did not dislcose his true savings the the spending may not of reflected his true amount anyway, it may of brought the problem to light a lot earlier though. The income support cut of was £16k, regardless of what his income would of been. remember the payments were based on his disclosure of income and capital
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# 6
Sam___
Old 23-09-2010, 7:24 PM
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I'm sorry but you don't just "forget" you have 37 grand in the bank, you say he may have inocently not disclosed this due to old age yet you didn't mind him spending 30 grand on a field for you and your kids, he wasn't suffering from old age then I take it when he had to deal with all the paper involved with that?!!
He was paid money he wasn't entitled to and it has to be paid back, wether that means you have to sell the house or the field is by the by, you've just got pound signs in your eyes for you and your children, shocking behaviour

oh and benefit debts are not statute barred, so they have as long as they want to to persue the debt...
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# 7
krisskross
Old 23-09-2010, 8:39 PM
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Sell the field. Or the house.

That is a heck of an amount claimed perhaps erroneously or perhaps fraudulently. Every form that your father or someone completing for him would have asked about savings.
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# 8
welshmoneylover
Old 23-09-2010, 9:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linnyhinny View Post
I am the Executor for my Father's estate who died aged 89 in October 2009. When probate was granted in March 2010 a letter shortly arrived after that from the DWP requesting information of capital at point of death which at the time was £10541 before funeral expenses, debts etc had been paid.

The DWP wanted Bank statements from Dec 1998 to Oct 2003 as apparently there was discrepancies as to capital held and what my Father was receiving in benefits. The Bank could only provide statements from July 2001 which I submitted to DWP. After further correspondence from them I have received a bill owing of £12562.98. (Income Support £2592.12 Dec 98-Oct 03 & Pension Credit £9970.86 Oct 03 to Oct 09

I have requested information from DWP asking how they arrive at this figure and all they have sent are complicated spreadsheet type statements. Apparently in 2001 he had approx. £37000 in the Bank (which was news to me as I didn't get involved in his finances until 2007 after ill health diagnosis).

I do know he bought a field in 2005 for £30000 (his hobby was horses & he wanted it for my daughter to keep her horse in and probably as an investment as well) then in June 2007 he bought a new car for £7400 so this would have brought his capital down considerably, though I don't think the DWP have considered this. Also in July 2007 a representative from the DWP visited my Dad to fill in new benefit forms after recommendation from his social worker and it turned out he was entitled to Attendance Allowance, an increase in Pension Credit and a disabled element of Pension to a total of £232.20 per week

I naturally want to appeal against this figure as the balance of monies in the Executor account is now approx £7800 which my two children are inheriting plus the house my Dad lived in. (I've been left the Field).

I have been in touch with Citizen's Advice who said I should fill in a GL24 Appeal Form.

I know my Father was not an educated man and like a lot of old people may not have disclosed all his savings when filling in the original application forms through no maliciousness as the majority of his savings had been in some kind of bonds which he probably thought at the time you didn't need to disclose.

The advice I would like from anyone else is has anyone successfully appealed in a similar circumstance and on what grounds? Can the DWP go back this far? as I want to be careful in what I write on the appeal form. My children are both students so cannot pay the difference in the shortfall & also I don't have that sort of spare money to lend them.
Wow, judging by the amounts of money spent on a field and a car, the DWP may very well be in the right.
Good on the Tories
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# 9
linnyhinny
Old 24-09-2010, 11:49 AM
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I appreciate all the replies though some concern me in that my Father deliberatively tried to defraud the DWP. As I mentioned before I didn’t get involved in his finances until 2007 and approx at that time he had about £10,000 which was under the £16K ceiling limit at that time for claiming Pension Credit and also after when a representative of the DWP came out to re-evaluate his benefits. When I received copies of his bank statements for the period of 2001-2003 it turned out that the majority of his savings were in bonds which is possible how when he filled in the forms he thought you only had to disclose actual money in the bank bearing in mind he would have been in his early 80’s and benefit forms are not the easiest forms to fill in.

Anyway I’m not trying to justify what he did just what probably happened. It’s possible that the £30k was in a bond due to mature and he thought it would be beneficial to buy a field that could possibly increase in value.

Getting back to what my Dad owes to the DWP which I know has to be paid my query is is that on the statements the DWP provided, they show that my Dad’s capital had always been £37K up to his death when in fact it reduced considerably after 2005 to £10,541 at date of death so the advice I am after is does anyone think I could appeal against what the DWP thought was in the accounts to actually was in the accounts and therefore rather than assuming he had received full benefits he would have been entitled to receive partial benefits, and hopefully the original bill of £12562.98 will be reduced in accordance to that.
I read plenty of stories about living people who defraud the benefits system maliciously and when found out rarely have to pay the whole lot back but usually get a fine, so does that ever happen in the case of a deceased person when they can’t prove whether it was a innocent mistake or not. I would also like to say that I am the Executor and not the beneficiary of my Dad’s money, so to me personally it makes no difference what happens, though obviously I don’t want my children to suffer financially if there are genuine errors. What ever happens I won’t be expected to sell the field as it was a gift to me as stated in the Will.

I really want advice as to how to go about appealing, and does anyone know if anyone has successfully reduced the bill of a deceased person and if so how did they go about it?
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# 10
Sam___
Old 24-09-2010, 11:56 AM
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They will say he still had the 37K because he will be classed as still having the money even though he "disposed" of some by investing in a peice of land and buying a new car, if your claiming means tested benefits this is called deprivation of capital and they will still have considered him as having the money even though it was spent.
there really isn't a way out of paying it back I'm afraid, your going to have to pay this back out of his estate.
do you honestly think it's right, trying to dodge paying back money that he was never entitled to, so you and your children can have more inheritence?
Sorry but the words greedy and irresponsible spring to mind...
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# 11
getmore4less
Old 24-09-2010, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linnyhinny View Post
Getting back to what my Dad owes to the DWP which I know has to be paid my query is is that on the statements the DWP provided, they show that my Dadís capital had always been £37K up to his death when in fact it reduced considerably after 2005 to £10,541 at date of death
You seem to be ignoring the field.
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# 12
linnyhinny
Old 24-09-2010, 12:09 PM
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I'm not disputing that the estate owes the DWP money, only that could it be possible that the amount owing could be reduced bearing in mind what was left in the estate at time of death. Also how can a person owe more money than what is actually in the account because if my Dad had filled in the original benefit forms correctly and originally was not entitled to Pension Credit so he would have been living off his savings then obviously the balance in the bank would have slowly depreciated anyway leaving even less disposable savings.
Also I don't want to continually have to justify that I am not a greedy individual as you like to state - you don't know me personally so how can you make that assumption. If you got a bill for £12500, wouldn't you want to query it?
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# 13
Sam___
Old 24-09-2010, 12:14 PM
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Sell the field or the house to pay the debt, they aren't rightfully anyones until all debts have been settled out of the estate.
The estate isn't just the cash in the bank my dear, any land or houses left in the estate are also counted, your Dad bought property worth 30 thousand pounds whilst claiming means tested benefits!!!!
pay it back!!!
Jeez, anyone get the impression we're banging our heads against a brick wall...
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# 14
linnyhinny
Old 24-09-2010, 12:29 PM
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When I posted this thread I didn't think I was going to get all this hassle. All I was expecting was constructive advice as to the best way to appeal against a large bill which I would have thought most people would appeal against if they were Executors. Whether someone has been overpaid £100 or £15,000 and the money has to be repaid which I'm not disputing (I am a tax payer and hate it like most people if someone deliberately defrauds benefits or my pet hate is the long-term unemployed who claim incapacity benefit when there there is nothing wrong with them and have large families to claim extra benefits) - but that's a different argument of which could be contested all day.
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# 15
Sam___
Old 24-09-2010, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linnyhinny View Post
I am the Executor for my Father's estate who died aged 89 in October 2009. When probate was granted in March 2010 a letter shortly arrived after that from the DWP requesting information of capital at point of death which at the time was £10541 before funeral expenses, debts etc had been paid.

The DWP wanted Bank statements from Dec 1998 to Oct 2003 as apparently there was discrepancies as to capital held and what my Father was receiving in benefits. The Bank could only provide statements from July 2001 which I submitted to DWP. After further correspondence from them I have received a bill owing of £12562.98. (Income Support £2592.12 Dec 98-Oct 03 & Pension Credit £9970.86 Oct 03 to Oct 09

I have requested information from DWP asking how they arrive at this figure and all they have sent are complicated spreadsheet type statements. Apparently in 2001 he had approx. £37000 in the Bank (which was news to me as I didn't get involved in his finances until 2007 after ill health diagnosis).

I do know he bought a field in 2005 for £30000 (his hobby was horses & he wanted it for my daughter to keep her horse in and probably as an investment as well) then in June 2007 he bought a new car for £7400 so this would have brought his capital down considerably, though I don't think the DWP have considered this. Also in July 2007 a representative from the DWP visited my Dad to fill in new benefit forms after recommendation from his social worker and it turned out he was entitled to Attendance Allowance, an increase in Pension Credit and a disabled element of Pension to a total of £232.20 per week

I naturally want to appeal against this figure as the balance of monies in the Executor account is now approx £7800 which my two children are inheriting plus the house my Dad lived in. (I've been left the Field).

I have been in touch with Citizen's Advice who said I should fill in a GL24 Appeal Form.

I know my Father was not an educated man and like a lot of old people may not have disclosed all his savings when filling in the original application forms through no maliciousness as the majority of his savings had been in some kind of bonds which he probably thought at the time you didn't need to disclose.

The advice I would like from anyone else is has anyone successfully appealed in a similar circumstance and on what grounds? Can the DWP go back this far? as I want to be careful in what I write on the appeal form. My children are both students so cannot pay the difference in the shortfall & also I don't have that sort of spare money to lend them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by linnyhinny View Post
I appreciate all the replies though some concern me in that my Father deliberatively tried to defraud the DWP. As I mentioned before I didnít get involved in his finances until 2007 and approx at that time he had about £10,000 which was under the £16K ceiling limit at that time for claiming Pension Credit and also after when a representative of the DWP came out to re-evaluate his benefits. When I received copies of his bank statements for the period of 2001-2003 it turned out that the majority of his savings were in bonds which is possible how when he filled in the forms he thought you only had to disclose actual money in the bank bearing in mind he would have been in his early 80ís and benefit forms are not the easiest forms to fill in.

Anyway Iím not trying to justify what he did just what probably happened. Itís possible that the £30k was in a bond due to mature and he thought it would be beneficial to buy a field that could possibly increase in value.

Getting back to what my Dad owes to the DWP which I know has to be paid my query is is that on the statements the DWP provided, they show that my Dadís capital had always been £37K up to his death when in fact it reduced considerably after 2005 to £10,541 at date of death so the advice I am after is does anyone think I could appeal against what the DWP thought was in the accounts to actually was in the accounts and therefore rather than assuming he had received full benefits he would have been entitled to receive partial benefits, and hopefully the original bill of £12562.98 will be reduced in accordance to that.
I read plenty of stories about living people who defraud the benefits system maliciously and when found out rarely have to pay the whole lot back but usually get a fine, so does that ever happen in the case of a deceased person when they canít prove whether it was a innocent mistake or not. I would also like to say that I am the Executor and not the beneficiary of my Dadís money, so to me personally it makes no difference what happens, though obviously I donít want my children to suffer financially if there are genuine errors. What ever happens I wonít be expected to sell the field as it was a gift to me as stated in the Will.

I really want advice as to how to go about appealing, and does anyone know if anyone has successfully reduced the bill of a deceased person and if so how did they go about it?

You have been left a 30 grand peice of land, how can you say your not a benificiary?!?
There will be information on how to appeal the decision on any correspondence from the DWP about the debt, follow the guidlines on there to lodge your appeal. please don't try to pull the wool over peoples eyes, from what you have posted it is glaringly obvious your just trying to maximise yours and your childrens inheritence and get out of having to pay the money back, I don't think anyone on here will want to "help" you do that...
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# 16
welshmoneylover
Old 24-09-2010, 3:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linnyhinny View Post
All I was expecting was constructive advice as to the best way to appeal against a large bill which I would have thought most people would appeal against
Now you really are taking the biscuit
Good on the Tories
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# 17
anmarj
Old 24-09-2010, 4:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linnyhinny View Post
I'm not disputing that the estate owes the DWP money, only that could it be possible that the amount owing could be reduced bearing in mind what was left in the estate at time of death. Also how can a person owe more money than what is actually in the account because if my Dad had filled in the original benefit forms correctly and originally was not entitled to Pension Credit so he would have been living off his savings then obviously the balance in the bank would have slowly depreciated anyway leaving even less disposable savings.
Also I don't want to continually have to justify that I am not a greedy individual as you like to state - you don't know me personally so how can you make that assumption. If you got a bill for £12500, wouldn't you want to query it?

as I pointed out, he could of contacted the PS and asked for a review of his capital at any time, the fact that he had a field meant that may not of be done as that would of been counted as capital, you right in that had he completed the forms right he would not of been entitled to Income support/pension credit, but then if he had still bought the field and then applied the field would still of counted towards his capital, he may of still got nothing. he may of only had £10k in cash, but he still had an assest ie the field. ignorance is not an excuse in eyes of benefits. also Pension credit does not have a upper limit of £16k, depending on his level of income at time Pension Credit came in, he may of still been entitled had it all be declared correctly.
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Last edited by anmarj; 24-09-2010 at 4:38 PM.
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# 18
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Old 24-09-2010, 7:42 PM
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While I dont agree with the way some replies have been posted, I do think you need to seek professional advice with regards to this.

Are you aware of the 'rules' surrouding Deprivation of Capital? If not, I suggest you do some research. The purchase of a new car aged 87 immediately sets off some alarm-bells in my head.

I agree, if i was presented with a £12k 'bill,' I too would question it. But on the info you have provided, it would seem (sadly) that the DWP are owed the money and I'm not sure how much time or energy I would invest in fighting it.
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# 19
linnyhinny
Old 24-09-2010, 10:37 PM
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Thank you - at last someone who has given me constructive advice without accusing me of being a money grabber. The comments I have received off other forum users have been quite hurtful bearing in mind I didn't fill the benefit forms in but my Dad did. Anyway I have looked up "Deprivation of Capital" and understand how the 2 major purchases my Dad made towards the end of his life would probably not be considered when his benefits were calculated, but I'm going to fill in the appeal form anyway because of the fact that the benefit advisor made a fresh claim in 2007 on my Dad's behalf which resulted in an increase of benefits & see what happens, so watch this space!

Just to clarify about the car, my Dad only bought a new one cause his old one packed up after 11 years and he wanted to remain independant and why not splash out at his age cause after all you can't take it with you and he wasn't to know that we would die two years later from Cancer.
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# 20
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Old 24-09-2010, 10:57 PM
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You were given constructive advice from the CAB worker : complete a GL24. This is a form to lodge an appeal against a benefit ( DWP ) decision. You have the right to do this and normally should do so within one month of the date on the decision letter.
From what you tell us, it would seem that the estate ( which includes money, land, property) will have to pay back an overpayment of benefits. It doesn't really matter who filled in the claim forms. If it was a benefits advisor they will have asked your dad if he had any savings or capital. If he did not declare his savings or land, then his benefits were wrongly calculated and have to be paid back.
The payment is a first call on the estate, before any distribution is made. Then funeral costs and any fees or charges.
It may be that there is still enough in the monetary legacy for your children. If not, you may need to sell the land in order to provide enough money for them to get their inheritance.
Not what you wanted to hear, I guess.
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