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Co-op bank ppi
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# 1
pompeyfaith
Old 19-01-2010, 9:26 PM
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Default Co-op bank ppi

Greetings Everyone,

I have a claim ongoing since July 2008 which has been with the FOS since December 2008 due to reaching deadlock with the CO-OP BANK.

This claim relates to 9 PPI Policies sold to me since April 1999 I have calculated it using the Office of Fair Trading DualCalc and it is a tidy sum and I believe it is for this reason I am getting the run around for the past year.

Now I did get an offer from the bank for just over £5000 in October 2008 but I declined the offer as it fell well short of what I was owed and they only made the offer on 8 PPI Policies and not the 9 I have had the one they did not offer on funny enough was the first policy I was sold in April 1999.

Citing that their was no agreement so I challenged this again by sending off another SAR REQUEST. The information requested turned up in January 2009 and in that Bundle of Documents was the agreement dated April 1999.

A week later came a letter from the bank stating that they have closed the complaint and telling me that I am welcome to take my complaint to the FOS.

Little did they know I had already done that in December 2008 due to the SAR REQUEST being late and that the complaint had gone well over the 8 weeks.

The Banks stance on the first agreement now is that there is no proof that any payments where made on the First Loan.

This I am finding very hard to believe because although I no longer have any Bank Statements going back this far it is a well known fact that as my current account is also with the CO-OP BANK and the bank account and loan account numbers are the same they took the payment each month even if it put me overdrawn.

Yes they made sure the first direct debit to get paid was the loan.

So that argument is very thin and furthermore this was the first loan I had and if I did not pay this do you think they would let me have a further 8 Loans of course not they would of defaulted me after all they where quick enough to default my current loan that is disputed.

Now this is still ongoing with the FOS and Im getting right pied off not only with the bank but also with the FOS due to the amount of time this is taking and that they cannot see though the banks tactics.

Twice the FOS has written saying there offer is right and fair and twice I have told them why it is not.

In march 2009 I was getting so stressed with it I was admitted to hospital with a heart attack this was not only due to the hypertension I suffer with as a result of a stroke and major brain surgery but also the stress of having to deal with the Bank and the FOS.

The FOS know this but still cannot deal with this complaint in-line with there medical guidelines.

I used the FOS 3 minute survey and gave them a bad one lol and amazingly they phoned me the following day to try and put things right.

I had a letter from them Friday gone telling me they have got things wrong and apologized.

This was from there service review team they say that they will now treat my complaint with urgency.

Time will tell by the way my claim is for approx £25,000 quiet a difference from just over £5000.

Will keep you all updated.

Regards

Pompeyfaith
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# 2
di3004
Old 19-01-2010, 9:40 PM
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Hi hun

OMG I am so sorry to hear what you have been through, and do hope your recovering from all this.
Blimey this must have been awful for you.
Thinking of you and I do hope everything gets better for you very soon.

Good for you for doing what you did in regards of the FOS......., I'm sure now it will all be resolved very soon, everything crossed for you and please also take care.XXX
The one and only "Dizzy Di"
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# 3
pompeyfaith
Old 19-01-2010, 9:59 PM
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Di3004,

Thank You, Yes I am winning I've been fighting this now for 18 months so a bit longer is not going to hurt.

Unfortunately where the problem lies is the FOS being inundated with PPI Claims and employing more staff who are clearly not trained enough to deal with complex complaints like mine.

I refuse and state my reasons then it goes to the back of the pile to be looked at again and thus not taking medical conditions into consideration.

The FOS Whistle-blower was right.

All I can do is keep on their bak each week and hope for some good news.

Regards

PF
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# 4
marshallka
Old 20-01-2010, 7:47 AM
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Hi pompeyfaith, I followed your thread on CAG and must say I have also won with the co-op and "thought" my figures were wrong BUT when it was not the PPI that was wrong, it was the fact that rule of 78 was used in settling my loans. Its not the PPI as I can see with yours either and mine worked out to the PENNY using the rule 78 calculator (so co-op must have used the same) and I mean to the penny too and they were correct.

Sorry you are still battling this but if your agreements are standalone and not loans that carried onto the others (I cannot work these out) I can work at least one of them for you so you can see.

I would need the loan amount, PPI amount (both without interest). The APR and length of loan and repayment amount. Also if you settled early the amount of rebate against the insurance which would be on the settlement/statements.

Last edited by marshallka; 20-01-2010 at 7:55 AM.
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# 5
pompeyfaith
Old 20-01-2010, 8:45 PM
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Marshallka,

Thank You for the offer that would be most helpful, I did get your offer on CAG but was so confused I did not take you up.

Now some of these loans are settled into the next and some are not.

I do not have any settlement statements as none was sent to me all I have is a letter detailing the settlements.

Ok here goes Loan date 14th Feb 2002

Loan Amount £4000
PPI Amount £951.11
APR 12.40%
Term 60 months
Repayment Amount 59 of £110.35 and 1 of £110.05
PPI Settlement was £514.53 in march 2003

Thank you

PF
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# 6
marshallka
Old 20-01-2010, 9:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeyfaith View Post
Marshallka,

Thank You for the offer that would be most helpful, I did get your offer on CAG but was so confused I did not take you up.

Now some of these loans are settled into the next and some are not.

I do not have any settlement statements as none was sent to me all I have is a letter detailing the settlements.

Ok here goes Loan date 14th Feb 2002

Loan Amount £4000
PPI Amount £951.11
APR 12.40%
Term 60 months
Repayment Amount 59 of £110.35 and 1 of £110.05
PPI Settlement was £514.53 in march 2003

Thank you

PF
Hi PF, did you pay this to term or should I say at what month did you repay the loan as you had a rebate so must have been settled early? Did you make 12 repayments and then settled or 13 and what was the amount you settled the loan at? I realise you say you have no settlement statements but to work this out we would need the settlement amount?????

PPI element of the repayment was 19.21% so 19.21% of your repayment went towards PPI being £21.20 each month. The total of the PPI payable if the loan had gone to term would have been £1272. You made 13 repayments (maybe 12) so this totalled 21.20 x 13 = £275.60.

Last edited by marshallka; 20-01-2010 at 9:20 PM.
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# 7
pompeyfaith
Old 20-01-2010, 9:53 PM
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Hiya Marshallka,

12 payments made then settled do you mean loan settlement ?

So £254.40 paid

On their offer letter the calculation is as thus:-

Total paid inc PPI to 25/03/2003 £5203.09
Total would have paid without PPI £4643.45
Difference A) - B) £ 467.50
Plus interest at 8% simple from
25/03/2003 to date which was
27/10/2008 £250.97
Settlement Amount c) + d) £718.47

This calculation is what is totally confusing me it is not in-line with the FOS settlement guidelines.

Regards

PF
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# 8
marshallka
Old 20-01-2010, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeyfaith View Post
Hiya Marshallka,

12 payments made then settled do you mean loan settlement ?

So £254.40 paid

On their offer letter the calculation is as thus:-

Total paid inc PPI to 25/03/2003 £5203.09
Total would have paid without PPI £4643.45
Difference A) - B) £ 467.50
Plus interest at 8% simple from
25/03/2003 to date which was
27/10/2008 £250.97
Settlement Amount c) + d) £718.47

This calculation is what is totally confusing me it is not in-line with the FOS settlement guidelines.

Regards

PF
Pompeyfaith, please try to be patient with me here as i am posting this up before I lose connection (in case i do) as it really annoys me sometimes when i do these calculations and that happens. Please ignore for a short while as I may tinker with them again. Just for me at the moment

Last edited by marshallka; 21-01-2010 at 10:56 AM.
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# 9
pompeyfaith
Old 20-01-2010, 10:23 PM
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Thank You,

Sure I have all the patience in the world lol

PF
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# 10
pompeyfaith
Old 20-01-2010, 10:38 PM
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Indeed a difference of £84.42 just on one agreement then there is one which they are not offering any redress at all.

PF
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# 11
marshallka
Old 20-01-2010, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeyfaith View Post
Thank You,

Sure I have all the patience in the world lol

PF
Hi PF.

PLEASE IGNORE THIS POST AS I CALCULATED ON 13 MONTHS SO WRONG.

Last edited by marshallka; 21-01-2010 at 10:57 AM.
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# 12
pompeyfaith
Old 20-01-2010, 10:45 PM
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Marshallka,

Thank You your help in sorting this is greatly appreciated.

PF
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# 13
marshallka
Old 20-01-2010, 10:52 PM
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Hi PF, going to do it all again tomorrow using "12" repayments and see what we come up with. Hold on in there. Too tired now but BRB.
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# 14
pompeyfaith
Old 20-01-2010, 10:59 PM
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Marshallka,

Sure not a problem take as long as you like after all a few more weeks is not going to matter after an 18 month wait.

Much rather get it right before writing back to the FOS.

Kindest Regards

PF
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# 15
marshallka
Old 21-01-2010, 7:49 AM
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You actually paid over to them 1324.20 (12 x 110.35) + 4310.38 (using rule 78 calculator) - rebate of insurance 514.53 = £5120.05 (their figure £5203.09) (getting there)



If you had not had PPI it would look like this

You actually paid over to them 89.15 (being what the repayment would have been WITHOUT PPI) x 12 = 1069.80 + 3482.33 (settlement using rule 78) totalling £4552.13 (4643.45 their figure)



5120.05 - 4552.13 = £567.92 (My figures 12 months)
5203.09 - 4643.45 = £559.64 (Their figures if they were taken away correctly)
Difference of £8.28
5203.09 - 4643.45 = £467.50 (FROM THEIR CALCULATIONS WHICH I ASSUMED CORRECT BUT INCORRECT)



I think they have just simply got the A) MINUS B) WRONG and also it works better using 12 months and is VERY close except they obviously cannot do a simple sum. Can you confirm their sum of a) minus b) with them???? If they did this correct then your redress would be NEAR enough correct. I have done 12 MONTHS in calculations but surely the bank can see they have done a simple "SUM" wrong. I think the "actual" amount of the redress is correct.

Last edited by marshallka; 21-01-2010 at 11:02 AM.
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# 16
marshallka
Old 21-01-2010, 8:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeyfaith View Post
Hiya Marshallka,


This calculation is what is totally confusing me it is not in-line with the FOS settlement guidelines.

Regards

PF
Hi PF, I won with Co-op and it stated

"Calculate the amount the customers paid in total in respect of their overall loan including any fees and penalties, as well as interest and reflecting any premium rebates allowed on cancellation of the PPI policy."


"Calculate the amount the customer would have paid in total had the original loan been taken without the additional borrowings to fund the PPI, but assuming it was settled the same date (including any fees and penalties, as well as interest and repayments)."

"Pay the customer the difference between the two plus interest at 8% per annum simple from the date the loan was redeemed to todays date".

Which is what I have done on my post before for the 12 months you had the loan and it works out correct to me (all but the £8.28) and the method they have used on your redress is the same on mine also.


PF, have you tried pointing out their subtraction mistake. Its plain to see and its a "simple" mistake???? I am not on about their actual redress that works about £8.28 difference but its not something they can actually "argue" (A SIMPLE SUM) i am sure as they could see that its a simple mistake???

I really hope this helps you understand and can confirm that I find their redress of this particular loan (other than their actual subtraction) correct. I would however ask them for stress money perhaps for the simple mistake.

Last edited by marshallka; 21-01-2010 at 11:02 AM.
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# 17
marshallka
Old 21-01-2010, 11:43 AM
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Right as regards how FOS calculates refunds we will put your figures into here to double check

Loan and PPI policy terminated early before FOS decision.
Overall loan was for £4951.11 (monthly payments £110.35) – but it would have been £4000 with monthly payments of £89.15 without PPI. Policy term was 60 months; loan and policy cancelled are 12 monthly payments.
Borrower was required to pay £4310.38 - 514.53 = 3795.85 to settle the loan (after the business had taken account of the rebate of premium he was due of £514.53; but if he had not had PPI added to loan, the smaller loan of £4000 would have cost £3482.33 to settle at the same point.
So borrower had paid lender £21.20 a month more than he would have done, had the financial business not mis-sold the PPI policy; and £313.52 more to settle the loan after 12 months.
· Return 12 monthly payments of £21.20 to date of settlement (254.40)
· Calculate difference between settlement costs incurred when borrower ended loan early and those he would have incurred had he settled the loan without the additional PPI element. (£3795.85 - £3482.33 = £313.52) pay difference to borrower.
· Add interest to each payment of £21.20 at 8% simple, from date that excess was incurred.



If you add up the £254.40 and the difference of £313.52 = £567.92 (WHICH AGAIN IS EXACTLY AS MY ABOVE FIGURES SO AGAIN PROVES IT TO BE CORRECT) which is what the redress should be according the FOS method above BUT co-op do not pay usually on the 8% simple for each repayment FROM DATE repayment was made to todays date. They simply work out your redress and then add 8% from the date the loan was redeemed to todays date.

PF - YOU COULD KNOW THIS FOR CERTAIN IF YOU SETTLED THIS LOAN WITH AN AMOUNT OF £3795.85 OR THEREABOUTS. IS THERE ANY WAY OF CHECKING THIS.

Last edited by marshallka; 21-01-2010 at 12:22 PM.
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# 18
pompeyfaith
Old 21-01-2010, 12:50 PM
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Marshallka,

Thanks for this just one question now then.

So going by the above calculation you ave kindly done and this is what is confusing me

They gave a rebate o the PPI in march 2003 of £514.53 but the policy cost was £951.11 so where has the difference between those two figures of £436.58 gone.

Surely if they have made a financial wrong all of the policy cost should have been returned to the loan because otherwise they would have kept some which ok if i cancelled it but i did not t was a finacial wrong due to a medical condition.

Take my current loan the PPI was £1,511.27 but they have only returned £914.20 to the loan I do have computer screenshots of this.

How can it be right that they keep £597.07 surely that must be returned to the loan too otherwise the loan settlement will be wrong?.

Regards

PF
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# 19
marshallka
Old 21-01-2010, 1:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeyfaith View Post
Marshallka,

Thanks for this just one question now then.

So going by the above calculation you ave kindly done and this is what is confusing me

They gave a rebate o the PPI in march 2003 of £514.53 but the policy cost was £951.11 so where has the difference between those two figures of £436.58 gone.

Surely if they have made a financial wrong all of the policy cost should have been returned to the loan because otherwise they would have kept some which ok if i cancelled it but i did not t was a finacial wrong due to a medical condition.

Take my current loan the PPI was £1,511.27 but they have only returned £914.20 to the loan I do have computer screenshots of this.

How can it be right that they keep £597.07 surely that must be returned to the loan too otherwise the loan settlement will be wrong?.

Regards

PF
Hi PF, the total cost of your PPI had the loan ran its course would have been 21.20 x 60 totalling £1272.00. This amount would have been added to your other loan (as PPI is actually another loan) and then you repay it monthly. As you settled it early you have a rebate which was 514.53 so although you had paid 12 x 21.20 off the 1272.00 there was still another 1017.60 owing. You also got a statutory rebate using rule 78 on the "interest" element of the PPI. You never actually got charged any more than that of the £597.07 for the PPI over the whole period you had the loan. You were rebated for the PPI and rebated for the interest.

It works like this PF. You have a loan to pay the PPI over to the insurer. You then have paid in full for a service (lets call it that) and you have borrowed the money from your bank for this. This "loan" for the PPI is then treated like any other loan. You owe it and if you settle it early then you get a rebate according to whatever regs were used at the time of the interest due on the loan. (Yours being rule of 78 which is a very costly method of settling ANY loan let alone PPI) BUT Co-op are not as bad as some..... some actually do not rebate anything on the policy like co-op do .



Here are the figures for your loan if you did not have any PPI again


You loaned an amount of £4000 over 60 months. This was repaid at 89.15 a month but you settled it after 12 months and the settlement would have been according to rule of 78 (NOT the new method and this is where the problem lies) £3482.33.

The total charged for your loan was 89.15 x 12 = £1069.80 plus
The amount of your settlement being £3482.33 so it WOULD have been £4552.13. You actually had £4000 and the rest was charged cause of rule of 78 and interest for borrowing the money over 12 months.

Now again the loan and cost WITH the PPI

You loaned £4951.11 over 60 months. This was repaid at £110.35 a month but you settled after 12 month and the settlement would have been according to rule of 78 £4310.38. However, you did not pay to them £4310.38 as they gave you a rebate of £514.53 so you actually gave to them £3795.85.

The total cost of your loan with PPI was 110.35 x 12 = 1324.20 plus the amount you settled the loan with being £3795.85 totalling £5120.05.

If you take the total cost of the loan with the PPI being £5120.05 away from the total cost of what the the loan WOULD have cost without the PPI being £4552.13 you get a difference that you ACTUALLY PAID OF £567.92.

You never actually paid all the PPI to them. You got it rebated (as you can see) with the rule of 78 for the interest and then they take away a good amount for rebate they give on the actual policy.

Its actually rule of 78 that has stung you here PF and not the PPI. You current loans would be rebated much different to this since rule of 78 was abolished.
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# 20
marshallka
Old 21-01-2010, 2:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeyfaith View Post

Take my current loan the PPI was £1,511.27 but they have only returned £914.20 to the loan I do have computer screenshots of this.

How can it be right that they keep £597.07 surely that must be returned to the loan too otherwise the loan settlement will be wrong?.

Regards

PF
It will be returned to the loan IF you actually got charged the whole amount. If the loan is ongoing and you win a missale then they work it like this. They would look at what repayments you have made towards the PPI to date and pay it you back. They would then look at what amount of PPI is then owing on the loan and settle it so to speak and open another loan (usually) minus the amount of PPI that would be due. This then puts your loan back into the postion as if you never had the PPI. You would also be awarded 8% statutory interest and the amounts you have paid to date. You new loan will then be that of just the amount you originally borrowed less whatever you have paid off it and the repayments would reduce to reflect NO PPI.

PF I want to help you so much to understand this. I really do and if you still do not then please ask away cause I know how much this is hurting you. I am just not so good at explaining it but trying my best.
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