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    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 3rd Feb 17, 1:33 PM
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    Cardew
    TPeople have said that a 1 kw electric fire a 1kw fan heater and a 1kw convector heater will all use the same electricity. I get that. Its a fact.

    BUT... if you have a new style electric radiator on your wall like the Rointe Kyros, it has a thermostat and a timer.

    Now the electric fire will belt out the 1kw non stop, but a thermostatically controlled heater during that "kilowatt hour" will heat the room up to the 20degrees then switch off. It will not run continuously. Therefore it is not using power all the time.

    No one has discussed that.
    Originally posted by peachespeaches
    It has been discussed many many times on MSE. The important point is that all electrical heaters give out exactly the same amount of heat, for the same consumption of electricity. Most also have thermostats(not a 1 bar fire). Your Rointe Kyros heater delivers no more, or no less, heat for the same cost as any electrical heater.

    All a thermostat does switch off power once the desired room temperature has been achieved.

    I have a fan heater that can output 1kW, 2kW or 3kW. It cost less than £10 and has a thermostat. I have an ancient oil filled radiator that has both a thermostat and timer.

    If I want a timer, I can buy this posh job for £7.99 and plug in any heater, in any room.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maclean-MCE30GB-Digital-Timeswitch-Lightning/dp/B00VV6CVTK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1486125983&sr=8-3&keywords=plug+timer+heater

    For £20 I can buy a timer with remote control and(Joy of Joys) it can be controlled from a phone(android or iOS) or tablet - a must for my kids!

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01LX5K8ZO?psc=1

    There are literally hundreds of panel heaters with thermostats and timer, like this Dimplex model for £70

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Panel-Heaters/Dimplex-800-Wattage-Electric-Panel-Heater-Timer/B00011FW6A/ref=sr_1_3?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1486127071&sr=1-3&keywords=panel+heater+with+timer

    P.S. On the subject of thermostats, the cheaper models have a simple bi-metal strip, while the more expensive models have a more accurate electronic digital thermostat. What this means is the temperature is better controlled. e.g. If you set a temperature to, say, 20C it will regulate the temperature between 19.9C to 20.1C. The bi-metal strip will be, say, 19.5C to 20.5C - (examples only)

    Rointe have a digital thermostat.

    PPS.

    As far as I am aware nobody in this thread has questioned the quality of Rointe's products, and at least they publish a price list:

    http://rointe.co.uk/downloads/Rointe-price-list-TOR15V1-UK.pdf
    Last edited by Cardew; 03-02-2017 at 1:36 PM.
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 3rd Feb 17, 2:33 PM
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    lstar337
    As far as I am aware nobody in this thread has questioned the quality of Rointe's products, and at least they publish a price list:

    http://rointe.co.uk/downloads/Rointe-price-list-TOR15V1-UK.pdf
    Originally posted by Cardew
    As far as electric heaters go, the are quite attractive in my humble opinion.

    The prices make them prohibitive for somebody like me though, I just don't have enough money to enjoy a pretty heater. Luckily I have GCH now anyway.
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 3rd Feb 17, 3:25 PM
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    Richie-from-the-Boro
    I have questioned the price ratio / quality of Rionte products, the hi-build warranty of 10 years has always been reflected in the hi-price, but the only bit that can go wrong, the electronics, have until recently been limited to 2 years. The new Kyros range has 3 years on the electronics and 20 years on the body.
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 3rd Feb 17, 10:05 PM
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    matelodave
    AFAIK the Rointe heaters are fluid filled, jsut like an oil filled rad. I dont know if its a magic fliud, like the magic dust/clay or whatever in a Fischer heater but it wont make the heater any hotter or use any less leccy than a cheapie from Argos or Home Bargains's etc.

    The the timer/thermostat might be a bit more accurate than a bi-metallic one in a £30 Argos unit but it will still produce the same amount of heat to fill the same space and cost the same to run as an Argos heater of the same rating

    I agree that they look a bit nicer but is aesthetics worth another £300 to £400 to get the same result.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 4th Feb 17, 12:39 AM
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    Richie-from-the-Boro
    That's would be x20 (ish) more than Argos. The accuracy of the stat is obfuscation, nothing whatsoever to do with kW use which is precisely the same, its an academic and technical measurement argument on felt 'comfort', whilst it's true that an accurate stat will give less periods in measured time of maintained specific heat - what is a period ?. Is it 1 millisecond ? 5 whole seconds ? certainly not a whole minute or a half hour ?. Honestly which reasonably grounded objective person would notice !
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • Sandra Robertson
    • By Sandra Robertson 1st Aug 17, 10:21 AM
    • 1 Posts
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    Sandra Robertson
    Rointe heaters!
    Hi! Is there anyone out there who can update me on Rointe electric heaters as I am buying a property with old fashioned storage heaters! I have looked at the possibility of having gas installed but am being quoted well over £5000 for this to happen! Any advice would be appreciated!
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 1st Aug 17, 12:20 PM
    • 3,229 Posts
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    lstar337
    Hi! Is there anyone out there who can update me on Rointe electric heaters as I am buying a property with old fashioned storage heaters! I have looked at the possibility of having gas installed but am being quoted well over £5000 for this to happen! Any advice would be appreciated!
    Originally posted by Sandra Robertson
    Rointe heaters are simple, wall mountable, electric convector heaters with a somewhat sophisticated thermostat/timer control system.

    The control system looks good enough and allows a significant level of control, and I quite like the styling of them. They are not ugly in my opinion.

    They are expensive to run however, using direct electric at ~12p/unit.

    The website shows no prices per unit, which to me means they must be expensive. Why hide the price if it is reasonable?

    You are unhappy with a £5000 gas install cost, so I assume you are looking to no spend a fortune. I wouldn't be surprised if you found that a whole property install of Rointe heaters was close to that, but with a sales person pushing a heavy discount for an on-the-spot sale.

    Now for your options.

    1. Stick with Night Storage and learn how to use it as efficiently as possible.

    This is the cheapest solution overall. Make sure all your current heaters are working, and check your E7 water tank. If you set it all up correctly (and your heaters are a large enough capacity for the space), then you should get heat all day long and hot water too, for a running cost similar to gas.

    Note: This works best if you get a competitive E7 tariff and learn how to make full use of your E7 hours.


    2. Switch to direct electric, with an increase in monthly costs.


    If you want to install direct electric wall mount heaters in each room, then I would go with a well respected brand like Dimplex where you should be looking to pay around £120 for each heater. (I would expect the Rointe to be around £600/heater)

    NOTE: With Rointe (or any direct electric heater) you will need to re-wire sections of your property, and switch to a single rate electricity meter. Also, your hot water requirements will cost roughly 300% more than before.

    3. Install gas for the quote you have.

    Fairly self explanatory. This will offer the most control for the best price.

    NOTE: Make sure that gas is readily accessible in the building as a new connection to the grid could dwarf the cost of getting gas central heating installed.

    Further notes:

    Make sure your insulation is up to scratch as less heat lost means less heat needed to keep the place warm.

    Make sure your hot water tank is well insulated, for the same reason as above.

    Installing gas central heating where it has never been before can be pretty disruptive and lead to things like unsightly pipes all over the place if done on-the-cheap. On the plus side, if it is done well it will surely increase the value of the property by some amount as properties with GCH are more attractive to potential buyers.
    • danwa9
    • By danwa9 14th Aug 17, 11:22 PM
    • 5 Posts
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    danwa9
    Heating Options
    Hi all,

    I'm sorry to drag up an old thread (please do direct me to a more appropriate thread if there is one) but we currently live in a house that has already had Rointe heaters installed across the house.

    We moved in 18 months ago and knew it was electric only before we bought the house. Water is heated with immersion tank and heaters are all Rointe K. We wanted to trial the way it was/is to see how we got on. After two poor winters, we found our electricity bills were incredibly high. The rooms heated ok but with an open Plan lounge, we felt heating was slow to gain during colder weather, despite costing a lot. House has decent insulation too.

    Even being on economy 7 for the immersion tank can't hide from the heaters that use up energy during peak times (unavoidable if you want heat during 'normal human hours'! ����).

    Looked into so many options and recently found something that piqued my interest - electric boilers. For some reason I'd never heard of one or even knew they were available (could be a huge idiot here I know). My wife and I are expecting our second child imminently and already have a 15month old son, so wanted to keep our house warm, with hot water when required and mostly, an efficient system.

    The question I now want to ask to anyone who can help - would an electric boiler that will give us CH and hot water be a better option than our current situation? I'm inclined to believe it would and would give more value to the property but really want some advice if it's possible.

    Thanks in advance!

    P.S. - gas and oil would require installation of tanks to be placed outsell which we don't feel would benefit the house with a modest garden.
    Last edited by danwa9; 14-08-2017 at 11:25 PM. Reason: Errors
    • danwa9
    • By danwa9 14th Aug 17, 11:38 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    danwa9
    Found a thread that didn't speak highly of an electric combi boiler. Having read some thoughts on it has really made me think twice. Any further advice or guidance would be hugely appreciated!
    • Richie-from-the-Boro
    • By Richie-from-the-Boro 15th Aug 17, 12:29 AM
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    Richie-from-the-Boro
    Advice, yes go E7 NSCH.

    Electric boilers are even more expensive than Rointe + pipework + water transport and heat loss + maintenance + servicing costs etc. You are indeed in a 'cleft stick' ripping out the Rointe is a pointless excersise in futility. Reality however demands E7 and an uneasy compromise can be found if you have a (partL complient) immersion system with a 'water controller' on the best E7 tariff for your area code and E7 wiring and corresponding CU, consider installing a supplimentary 3.4kW night store heater in your living area where your family spend the bulk of your time.

    You could extend at any time, treating the idea as modular any time, any year, finance dependant. Best of luck - more questions - ask !
    Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ
    • danwa9
    • By danwa9 15th Aug 17, 7:18 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    danwa9
    Thanks for your advice! Really do appreciate it.

    So in short, we should avoid the electric combi boiler at all costs?
    Last edited by danwa9; 15-08-2017 at 7:38 AM.
    • molerat
    • By molerat 15th Aug 17, 7:44 AM
    • 17,103 Posts
    • 11,256 Thanks
    molerat
    An electric boiler is a system of last resort, it is never going to be economical.

    Gas or oil would be the best option and add value / saleability to the property so don't write that one off, tanks can be hidden, but any new wet system is going to have a large capital cost and disruption during installation.

    E7 may not be the best tariff for your current heating system as you could well be using the majority on the expensive day rate - what is the day / night split % ? Night storage heaters are the most economical way of using electric for heating - good old fashioned (but a bit nicer looking these days) heaters and not those fancy German ones that promise to save you a fortune ! http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3516223 - you don't need to read all 500+ posts to get the idea.
    Last edited by molerat; 15-08-2017 at 7:51 AM.
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    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 15th Aug 17, 9:11 AM
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    matelodave
    Am electric combi will cost you even more to run than your present set up and will incur the same internal disruption as installing an oil or lpg system.

    Do as Molerate suggests and do some comparisons by adding your day and night consumptions together to see if a single rate tariff might work out cheaper.

    Although you are heating your hot water on E7, virtually everything else especially heating is coming from your peak rate which may be a lot more expensive than running the whole lot on a single rate.

    We are all electric (but with a heatpump) so use most of our energy during the peak rate times and find that a good single rate tariff is cheaper than trying to optimise our consumption to maximise use of off peak electricity.

    There's no way I'll persuade my wife that washing, ironing, cooking, vacuuming etc should be done between midnight and 7 am.
    Last edited by matelodave; 15-08-2017 at 9:13 AM.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 15th Aug 17, 9:20 AM
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    Cardew
    Firstly I agree with the posts above that a electric boiler CH system is the worst of all options.

    There is also no doubt that Night Storage heaters are the cheapest option for 'conventional'* electrical heating; but not everyone finds them convenient.

    As you already have Rointe heaters I would think very carefully about removing them and replacing them with storage heating. This is simply because the capital costs involved will take many years to recoup in reduced running costs.

    I would also look carefully at the need for you to be on an Economy 7 tariff. You pay extra for peak time electricity on an E7 tariff. Look at your annual total consumption of peak and off-peak electricity and compare that with a good 'normal' 24/7 tariff.

    * If the layout of your house is suitable, it would be an idea to investigate the possibility of fitting an Air to Air Heat pump.(not to be confused with an expensive ASHP system which heats water) The Air to Air blows warm air to a room.
    • danwa9
    • By danwa9 15th Aug 17, 5:20 PM
    • 5 Posts
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    danwa9
    Thanks to all of you for your incredibly helpful advice! It's made us change our minds about the electric boiler and we're now going to stick with what we have and look at what we can adapt.

    Just moved to Ovo on an E7 tariff. The tariff is 15.36p for day usage and 7.21p for night usage. Called them now and was told that a year fixed rate would be 14.26p or a two year fixed would be 14.87p to be on a single tariff.

    Looking at a rough estimate of our usage and these tariffs I think E7 is the better option by a couple of hundred pounds a year but I could be wrong.

    The immersion tank obviously benefits the E7 tariff but the heating is of course our biggest issue. I guess if I have it timed to be on during some night hours (particularly early morning prior to getting up) then we'd gain something from E7 (same with timed washes for washing machine) but clearly we all use heating mostly during evenings. My wife is also on maternity leave from now until May so is likely to be at home a lot during winter months.

    We do have a log burner but I'm under the impression that using that as a main source of heat for our lounge would still be rather costly (even when buying wood in bulk).

    Based on those tariffs, do you think E7 would benefit or cost more? They said if changing from E7, they will fit a smart meter to replace and put us on a single tariff. Again, how useful are smart meters as haven't heard great things.

    Again, honestly can't thank you enough for your advice!

    And Matelodave, your final line had my wife and I laughing out loud!!
    Last edited by danwa9; 15-08-2017 at 5:43 PM. Reason: Update
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 15th Aug 17, 6:55 PM
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    matelodave
    I would have thought that if you've been there for 18 months then you'd have a pretty good idea of what your Peak v off peak usage should be especially if you've heed advice and been sending in monthly readings - it's worthwhile keeping your own spreadsheet as well.

    So it shouldn't be difficult to add the peak and off peak readings together to get your total consumption and put it into a comparison site to see how much it would cost.

    If I remember rightly, Rointe heaters have timers & thermostats so you should be able to programme them to optimise your heating in various rooms so they arent over heated and try to reduce the temps during the day when you are active and only heat them when needed. So a bit of tweaking could help.

    As you say using as much off-peak leccy as you can by using timers on the washing machine, dryer or dishwasher would help and make sure you heat your hot water tank during off-peak times. I can't see a lot of benefit in overheating rooms overnight to get you started during the day although getting certain rooms up to temp during off-peak times might help.

    The only way to see what is happening is to monitor your consumption fairly closely to see what effect any changes have.

    I've been monitoring my energy consumption with an on-line monitor so I can see what is going on. See here http://www.energyhive.com/dashboard/dave

    You can see that at this time of the year we are only using around 8-10kw/day of which under 2kw/h is for heating the water tank. So not including heating the house our average is around 4000kwh a year of which around 800kwh is for heating the water. We use about 3000kwh a year for heating, nearly all of which (say 2500kwh) is during peak times as we are at home all day.

    so for us 7000kwh at your single rate would be around £1000 and on E7 would be about 5700kwh at peak and 1300 off peak = £960 so there's a bit of saving and we might be able to do better if we tried to do more during the night but as I said SWMBO won't play ball.

    We are actually on 11.33p/kwh = £800 until our presen fix runs out

    Don't forget our costs might look a bit strange but the heatpump runs nearly all day maintaining a background temperature and turns down overnight
    Last edited by matelodave; 15-08-2017 at 7:21 PM.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • danwa9
    • By danwa9 15th Aug 17, 7:22 PM
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    danwa9
    I'm having to go on a slight estimate at the moment as my wife has been on maternity leave and will be again during different times of the year. So even having been here for 18 months, I'm still not 100% certain of what we're using during an average year. Estimating based on current and previous circumstances has been my best option - leccy bills confirm this with varied monthly/yearly consumptions.

    Really like the idea of plotting and checking energy use. Have you found the energyhive stuff useful? Has it changed your way of using energy?

    The Rointe rads do have timers which are definitely useful in making sure they're heating up only when needed. It's just the rads themselves I'm not a big fan of. But you know what they say, you've got to make the best out of a bad situation.
    Last edited by danwa9; 15-08-2017 at 7:33 PM.
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 15th Aug 17, 7:45 PM
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    matelodave
    The energy monitor didn't really change our use of energy as we've always been a bit energy aware (or I have). I got the monitor when we refurbed our bungalow and installed the heatpump and heating system.

    We had no prior info on the place which had eight rusty old night storage heaters and were ripped out within a day or so of us moving in.

    The monitor did allow me to tweak the heating to get it running the way I wanted it and to set up all the room thermostats (we've got eight heating zones).
    I also used a data logging temperature monitor as well - it took nearly all of the first winter to work out how best to set it up and to optimise it's operation.

    It does show me what's on at any time and I can see when stuff is on that shouldn't be. We don't have the facility to turn stuff on & off remotely though.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • Owain Moneysaver
    • By Owain Moneysaver 15th Aug 17, 10:07 PM
    • 7,517 Posts
    • 7,940 Thanks
    Owain Moneysaver
    If you want wet central heating then you can get a thermal store which is heated on E7 overnight electricity at cheap rate.

    They can be expensive to buy, bulky, and you have all the drawbacks of wet central heating (leaks, etc).
    A kind word lasts a minute, a skelped erse is sair for a day.
    • Jimbobmz
    • By Jimbobmz 10th Oct 17, 11:38 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Jimbobmz
    I just found this thread, so I joined MSE so I could post.
    We took out our night storage heaters and the Economy 7, and put in Rointe heaters and switched to a Standard electricity tariff.
    Our electricity bills have more than doubled.
    I wish I had found this thread 15 months ago, it would have saved me a lot of money.
    It cost us over £4k to put all the heaters in, and now our bills are huge.
    I am posting this here so that other people can find it hopefully, and avoid making the same mistake that I did.
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