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Dulux Trade Paint -Ruined Walls!!
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# 1
BC2K3
Old 06-05-2006, 12:57 AM
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Default Dulux Trade Paint -Ruined Walls!!

Hi all, I'm after a little advice \ guidance please...

Background:
I moved in to a new flat on Friday. Its a Bovis built flat -2 years old.
On moving in I noticed some marks on the magnolia walls where furniture had been moved out etc etc, and a clause in my lease states the whole flat must be painted every 4 years.

So, thinking I'd kill 2 birds with one stone I decided to paint it over the weekend so all the marks would be gone on moving my stuff in, and wouldn't need doing for 4 more years... ;o)

I checked with the previous owner what paint had been used and she informed me it was Dulux Trade Supermatt (as used and purchased from the builders with about 1/4 tin remaining in the storage cupboard).
Not wanting to mix the paints, I went to B&Q and bought the exact same paint -brand new pot
I was also advised by the guy in B&Q to use a high grade 'professional' roller with a medium pile for smooth walls. (The walls are just plasterboard stud walls). So 100 lighter I head home.

The problem:
OK...after painting and leaving it several hours I noticed the walls were very patchy and in places have bubbled and cracked!
I made sure the paint was well mixed and last weekend were nice days with Windows open for ventilation etc etc..

In despair I've called the builders who informed 1. My warranty run out in December so its down to me and 2. It was probably the paint, but confirmed they do only use Dulux Trade.
I then called Dulux who claim the wall is either contaminated or damp, neither of which I believe! And that it was down to me.
After a heated discussion I was told to 'scrape off' some wall paint and send them a sample to analyse.
I also called B&Q (the only people to offer any help) and am currently awaiting a 'paint specialist' to call me.
The guy in B&Q also said this was the best paint they sold and didnt require any special application or brush -> just paint it on! :confused:

So with my new home a mess I've put a hold on moving furniture in until the walls have all been repaired.
I also had an independent decorator look at it yesterday and he suggested the paint was at fault.

Apologies for the long post, but has anyone heard of this happening before?
How do I go about proving what is wrong? What would you suggest I do to try and fix it? I *think* the walls have a dry lining paper(?) -I'm not 100% sure.

Any help appreciated!

BC
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# 2
George_Bray
Old 06-05-2006, 1:12 AM
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I'm sorry to hear of your spoilt wall. It should be easy to remedy though, I would hope, not that I'm a paint expert. I've never heard of anything like it! Firstly, how did you manage to spend as much as £100 on a bit of paint and a roller?

I would have used B&Qs cheapest own brand emulsion and wouldn't even have thought to ask what had been used before. I wouldn't have thought it was relevant. I would also have used a cheap roller, and would still have expected to get a very good finish. All I'm suggesting here is that painting a plasterboard wall is normally very easy, undemanding and hard to get wrong.

My only suggestions are (a) that the plasterboard wall wasn't sealed before the initial paint was applied, not that I would think it's essential, but perhaps it's a factor, or (b) that the wall was seriously damp, but that sounds unlikely.

What now? If it was me, I'd gently sand down the whole wall, then 'prime' it with diluted PVA adhesive, used as as sealant. Then apply a couple of thin coats of the emulsion. Allow 48 hours for each coat of PVA and paint to dry, before applying the next, to be on the safe side.

I would think it most unlikely that there's anything wrong with the paint, unless it was mixed at B&Q, when the risk of something being wrong with the mix must be a bit greater than with a tin direct from Dulux.

Regards
George
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# 3
weekendwarrior
Old 06-05-2006, 10:31 AM
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Dulux trade supermatt is designed for use on new plaster that has not been previously painted, are you sure you can use it on paint that has dried?

You shouldn't use PVA as a sealer for painting, it is not designed for this purpose and can seal moisture into the wall! The DIY programs on TV are responsible for the wide misuse of PVA.

I would take a sample and send it to Dulux. I have a friend that works for crown paints and they have just paid out lots of money in compensation for the emulsion that you paint on and is pink, but dries white! This stopped Pink!

Dulux could of screwed up a batch, it is possible!
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# 4
BC2K3
Old 06-05-2006, 10:39 AM
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Hey thanks for the reply.
Everyone I've spoken to have also said its the easist job in the world...just my luck eh!

Yeah £100!!
Dulux Trade Magnolia =£35
Dulux Trade White (for ceiling)=£20
Large Pro Roller=£8
Mini roller for small walls\window recess=£5
Good quality brushes for edges=£10
+ a new door lock for the front door=£20

I can't believe it, and although I've not heard anything back yet I need to get it repaired ASAP.
Oh well...B&Q's own brand it will be next time! LOL

Thank you
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# 5
beefster
Old 06-05-2006, 12:24 PM
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Are the blisters in the new paint finish or is it the old paint lifting off the plaster / plaster board?
It may be that the original paint finish was painted onto an unclean / dusty wall and has lifted. Had this myself and ended up literally peeling sheets of paint off a ceiling like you would wallpaper. The reverse side of these sheets was pink with plaster dust....... I think the new plaster on the ceiling was never washed down or sealed before they painted it! That was a fun weekend!!!!!! I repainted with new plaster sealer and then emulsion and no probs. Fingers crossed your prob is only one room and not the whole house!
I save so I can spend.
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# 6
davethedecorator
Old 07-05-2006, 9:48 AM
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I have had this happen to me on only a couple of occasions and I have put it down to contaminated surface, mainly due to the pattern of the effected area, I would be very interested to hear how you get on.

Just a quick point as far as paint brands are concearned, If it is just a quick freshen up you require and you are not trying to cover any staining or darker colours then B&Q own brand paints are fine, however I always use dulux do to its reliability especially when trying to cover dark or stained walls. I tend to travel around the local diy stores on a regular basis and see who has the current offers on at the time. B&Q currently have an offer on dulux buy 2 x 2.5ltr emulsion get one free, not sure if this is in all stores but i suspect it would be.
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# 7
laurz121
Old 07-05-2006, 11:38 AM
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The best paint by far has to be the B&Q paints that you get mixed up for you.

If your B&Q is a Supercentre then they may only do 'retail' mixed paints which are in a bluey purple tin, if it is a warehouse then they will be the far superior 'trade' paints and are in a white (horrible looking) tin.

The trade paint is the one that you want because it is made of far superior ingredients (is that the word?) and beats the normal B&Q stuff off the shelf every time, it also beats dulux the dulux off the shelf stuff as well because it is dulux but again is trade and not retail.

Even if the colour is available on the shelf in your b&q just make a note of the colour and go to the paint mixing desk and ask them to make you some up. It will be far better quality and is also better value for money because although a tin may cost a couple of quid more it will cover a lot more too. Ask the people at the desk to check the surface area coverage on the tins so that you can compare it with that of the normal dulux paints.
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# 8
Ericson
Old 07-05-2006, 11:55 AM
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Tricky one !

Without seeing the problem directly its difficult for us peeps that use paint everyday to give an opinion, but it does seem to me that the paint you have put on has 'livened up' the coating already on there, usually this happenens when badly adhered coatings are made wet by the paint you are applying as they dry at different speeds it results in Stressing & Bubbling.

I think most decorators have had this happen at one time or other, and can only be dealt with a stage at a time



looks like its a process of elimination to find the cause. maybe your paint expert can shed some light being on site physically as it were
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# 9
BC2K3
Old 07-05-2006, 10:58 PM
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Hi all, Thanks a million for your respected respones.

Had a pro decorator go round to day and evaluate the damage...and he said it wasn't too much of a big deal! <music to my ears!>
He said basically it looked like the 'seal' layer applied by the builder wasn't done properly, or as advised on this post -the wall wasn't cleaned properly before being sealed.
His advice was to :
1. Break the bubbled areas and peel of the paint.
2. Gently sand the whole wall and wipe over with a damp cloth to fully clean.
3. Apply 'Dulux Trade Primer Sealer' to all the walls which is oil based and will correctly seal them (even through the emulsioned I've put on).
4. Using ultra fine filler; repair the peeled of areas.
5. Reapply the Dulux Supermatt using a short thickness roller.

Finished step 3 this afternoon and now awaiting the 16 hrs drying time ready for the filler (only 2 areas had bubbled bad enough for the paint to peel) and re-paint.
I've taken photos as I'm sure as hell gonna complain to the builder for their 50p workmanship!
I'll let you know the update tomorrow, when hopefully I'll have perfect walls!!

Thanks for the advice so far...
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# 10
mini_mad_dad
Old 07-05-2006, 10:58 PM
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personally, i'd seal it with pva (diluted) then wallpaper the affected room or wall with backing paper and repaint. only take a day or 2 and be an extra £2/3.
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# 11
woolley
Old 08-05-2006, 12:01 AM
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Your decorators advice sounds right - and leaves nothing to chance so the problem won't come back.
It does sound like as mentioned the wall wasn't sealed so the original paint didn't adhere sufficiently in places.
With respect to the other poster I dont think the advice about using diluted PVA/lining paper is the answer (from my own past mistakes PVA rarely is).
It may cost more to do the job thoroughly as you are doing but you'll have confidence the wall(s) will be nice and sound for when you return to re-paint next time.
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# 12
George_Bray
Old 08-05-2006, 9:38 AM
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I'm a bit confused here, with all the different advice about whether to seal and, if so, what to use. I should have suggested using thinned emulsion as the sealing product (1 water to 4 emulsion), rather than PVA but I still reckon PVA would have worked fine. weekendwarrior disagreed and may well be right.

Then there are proprietary sealant products which I always avoid, as a money saver. The Dulux trade primer sealer sounds good though, if money is no object, but I would never use it myself.

Also, do remember that the base being discussed here is presumably paper/cardboard (the outer skin of the board) and earlier layers of paint, of course. This strikes me as nothing at all to do with painting 'plaster' as such.

Here's some additional views, worth reading. It seems that a consensus is hard to find on the sealing issue.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....818539f373b7ba

and

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....e3bab2519a1a59

As a contributor in the second link says: "The paint will come off in great sheets if the plaster isn't prepared properly first....stripping the remains of the paint left pristine plaster underneath!"

This comes back to my question, above. Are we painting plaster or cardboard when painting standard plasterboards?

Regards
George

Last edited by George_Bray; 08-05-2006 at 2:03 PM.
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# 13
chrisw
Old 08-05-2006, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laurz121
The best paint by far has to be the B&Q paints that you get mixed up for you.

If your B&Q is a Supercentre then they may only do 'retail' mixed paints which are in a bluey purple tin, if it is a warehouse then they will be the far superior 'trade' paints and are in a white (horrible looking) tin.

The trade paint is the one that you want because it is made of far superior ingredients (is that the word?) and beats the normal B&Q stuff off the shelf every time, it also beats dulux the dulux off the shelf stuff as well because it is dulux but again is trade and not retail.

Even if the colour is available on the shelf in your b&q just make a note of the colour and go to the paint mixing desk and ask them to make you some up. It will be far better quality and is also better value for money because although a tin may cost a couple of quid more it will cover a lot more too. Ask the people at the desk to check the surface area coverage on the tins so that you can compare it with that of the normal dulux paints.
I always thought the 'trade' paints were the cheap version to give a bit of colour where the finish didn't matter too much and it wasn't going over any strong colours. I once bought a tub of trade emulsion which was like milk so I've always avoided the trade versions ever since.

Is this right, or was I just unlucky with the tub I bought?
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# 14
George_Bray
Old 08-05-2006, 9:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC2K3
4. Using ultra fine filler; repair the peeled of areas.
I bought some the other day - Polycell Fine Surface Polyfilla 'for a glass smooth finish'.

I hated it and went straight back to ordinary Polyfilla for filling small imperfections. The standard Polyfilla achieves a pefectly smooth finish and is easy to sand. The fine surface product sets rock hard and is much more difficult to sand. You have to sand it for much longer/harder and, as a result, the surrounding area can get damaged.

Regards
George
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# 15
BC2K3
Old 08-05-2006, 6:15 PM
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Whooo! Lots of activity while I've been busy in my overalls!
Thanks for all the replies, I cant believe how much advice I've had from this post.

Indeed George, Polycell Fine Surface Polyfiller was what I bought and used, and certainly agree with your comment regarding sanding it, and how I ended up sanding away the surrounding area.

Well, the Dulux Trade Primer Sealer appers to have done the job because its no longer bubbling or cracking on the emulsion application...

..however, after leaving the sealer to dry overnight and re-painting the walls today with Dulux Trade Suppermatt Emulsion; it seems to be drying very 'patchy'.
I've taken some pics (but haven't got a clue how to upload them onto here).
Now - Am I doing something stupidily wrong here?
Granted I'm not a seasoned decorator; but I've used the correct roller <thin pile for emulsion> and haven't 'overloaded' the roller in paint.
I've then evenly zig-zagged the paint onto the wall (which looked fine and fully covered when wet) but is drying out patchy!!
This would have been the 2nd coat of emulsion; 1 before the sealer, then the sealer then todays one. Does that count as 2 or after sealer is really only 1?

As far as I know George is 'plaster' plasterboard. Theres no carboard, but how would I tell?

So much for being a money-saver!! This quick freshen up would have been cheaper if I'd hired 'Changing Rooms' to come do it!! LOL!

Thanks

Last edited by BC2K3; 08-05-2006 at 6:40 PM.
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# 16
Nile
Old 08-05-2006, 6:35 PM
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Hello BC2K3

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# 17
Ericson
Old 08-05-2006, 8:48 PM
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Looks like your nearly there, your Decorator gave good advice, don't know what colour you are applying but all walls always look patchy after the first coat even after sealing them, if its settled down and there is no bubling or cracking give it a second coat and you should be home and dry, if not run for the hills !!
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# 18
George_Bray
Old 09-05-2006, 12:29 AM
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BC2K3

One further thought, for what it's worth. To be on the safe side, I would leave longer for the drying of each coat of paint, or filler, than the minimum times suggested on the tins. Good luck...

Regards
George
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# 19
MGAstra
Old 09-05-2006, 5:32 PM
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In some new appartments/flats the walls are 'dry-lined' which means the plaster board is stuck onto the bricks of the wall, then the joints between the plaster boards are filled in (effectively with similar stuff to polly filla). The joint is then sanded and the wall painted. So, paint is put directly onto plasterboard ie. a paper surface (or thin cardboard if you like). This surface can easily pick up dust when the joints have been sanded and therefore should be sealed.

Alternativley, plasterboard is stuck onto the brick wall then skimmed with plaster. So this is a plaster surface and does not require sanding. However plaster tends to be a dusty surface anyway so still requires sealing.

I've recently modernised a house and I dry-lined wall some walls (and ceilings) and plastered most walls. I used watered-down emulsion paint to seal the walls. Then a further 2 or 3 coats B&Q own brand emulsion. Each coat was left to thouroughly dry before the next and I didn't experience any pealing.

I think using watered down PVA would work really well as a sealer. Somebody said above that this would seal in damp. I dont understand why as the walls shouldnt be damp and even so PVA likes to absorb water so I cant see as this would be a problem. That's just my opinion tho!

I think the inital problem in this post was that the wall wasn't sealed properly.
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# 20
BC2K3
Old 29-05-2006, 10:19 PM
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Hello all, an update on my nightmare walls...

Well, after the sealing process using Dulux Trade Primer Sealer I decided to let a decorator repaint the walls.
Again, the Supermatt was rolled on; and AGAIN on drying it bubbled and cracked!

The decorator advised that 'lining paper' on the walls would be the best bet - and so proceeded to paper the walls.

2 days later he painted the walls; and guess what! Its bubbled and come away from the wall! He used Solvite Extra Strong to adhere the paper to the wall, and yet I can easily peel the paper from the wall. (leaving like a dust to wipe from the wall).

I've now been told to remove all the paper, clean the wall with sugar-salt(? something like that) then PVA it, as this will seal it 100%...but as far as I can see nothing is adhering to the actual wall! :confused:

I've attached some links to pics if anyone can advise?

Thanks again!!

Original patches after walls were painted:
http://bcunningham.pwp.blueyonder.co...drypatches.jpg

Bubbles and cracks after painting wall:
http://bcunningham.pwp.blueyonder.co...me/bubbles.jpg

...and where the paint could be picked off:
http://bcunningham.pwp.blueyonder.co...bubblepeel.jpg

Then the walls were lining papered - which brought more tears:
http://bcunningham.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Home/tear.jpg

Paper cut away to show under paint and plasterboard:
http://bcunningham.pwp.blueyonder.co...rpeelpaint.jpg

Lining paper bubbles easily peel away; back to original wall paint:
http://bcunningham.pwp.blueyonder.co...iningpaper.jpg
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