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Getting a job after dismissal
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# 1
chipmoon
Old 22-07-2009, 5:13 PM
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Default Getting a job after dismissal

I am facing disciplinary at the lightest form but most likely dismissal from my job for falsifying information during the recruitment process (I didn't state my correct line manager - I gave someone else). I know now it was wrong and it's my own fault either way....


To top that up, I was caught cheating in my exams (when at university) and I know this is on my record for life. My four modules were capped at 40% and the one I cheated in, I was required to resit.


Looking at all this, nothing looks good for me, I look like a dishonest person overrall and is something which I would think of someone if I saw this on their screening check and didn't know them or why they did what they did. Funnily enough, with all this, I have always been known to be a model employee/student and very talented and have gained promotions along the way because I am good at what I do (minus interviews).


I just wanted to know...
- how will disciplinary affect me in future jobs (assuming I got offered a job)?
- how will dismissal affect me in future jobs (assuming I got offered a job)?
- Would they withdraw the job offer if my referees state I was facing disciplinary or dismissal?
- how easy will it be for me to get any job after all of this on my back?
- Should I just hand in my resignation and just go to avoid dismissal or disciplinary to make it easier to find work? (This will affect me financially very badly as I have lots to pay and no other support.)
-Will I be entitled to any support if I voluntarily resign?

Thanks in advance for any help.
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# 2
Uncertain
Old 22-07-2009, 6:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chipmoon View Post
I am facing disciplinary at the lightest form but most likely dismissal from my job for falsifying information during the recruitment process (I didn't state my correct line manager - I gave someone else). I know now it was wrong and it's my own fault either way....


To top that up, I was caught cheating in my exams (when at university) and I know this is on my record for life. My four modules were capped at 40% and the one I cheated in, I was required to resit.


Looking at all this, nothing looks good for me, I look like a dishonest person overrall and is something which I would think of someone if I saw this on their screening check and didn't know them or why they did what they did. Funnily enough, with all this, I have always been known to be a model employee/student and very talented and have gained promotions along the way because I am good at what I do (minus interviews).


I just wanted to know...
- how will disciplinary affect me in future jobs (assuming I got offered a job)?
- how will dismissal affect me in future jobs (assuming I got offered a job)?
- Would they withdraw the job offer if my referees state I was facing disciplinary or dismissal?
- how easy will it be for me to get any job after all of this on my back?
- Should I just hand in my resignation and just go to avoid dismissal or disciplinary to make it easier to find work? (This will affect me financially very badly as I have lots to pay and no other support.)
-Will I be entitled to any support if I voluntarily resign?

Thanks in advance for any help.
Well I hope people will respond to your post in a helpful way and not with some of the judgemental attitude we sometimes see.

Do I assume you have only been in your current job for a short time?

If so, might it be possible to miss this out in any future job applications. Instead use the posts where you got on well. Perhaps you can give the impression, without saying so, that you took an extended break but whatever you do don't try to hide one lie with another.

Equally there is no certainty that you will be dismissed for this, although you may well be. Draw attention to all the positive things you have done since you have been in the job and try to put the "oversight" down to your eagerness to work for this firm.

Resigning may not help very much and could make claiming JSA harder.

Above all learn from the past and move forwards.
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# 3
Horace
Old 22-07-2009, 6:12 PM
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For one thing a lot of university students cheat and it is very easy these days to spot that they are cheating (I am not saying that all students cheat but some do). You say you were asked to resit the exam that you cheated on - how did you do?

Depending on the severity of the lie on your application - you may face the sack but then again if you are an excellent worker then you may get off with a written warning. If you resign before your disciplinary then that proves your guilt - best to let your employer lay their cards on the table and see what they say and see what you can do to appeal to their better nature because at the moment it is all a case of what if...and what if may never happen. Was it a genuine mistake that you put down someone who wasnt your line manager or was it a deliberate attempt to mislead? There is a difference.

I have never been sacked from a job so I have no idea if being sacked has an impact on your future job prospects. However, I wish you well.
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# 4
chipmoon
Old 22-07-2009, 6:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncertain View Post
Well I hope people will respond to your post in a helpful way and not with some of the judgemental attitude we sometimes see.

Do I assume you have only been in your current job for a short time?

If so, might it be possible to miss this out in any future job applications. Instead use the posts where you got on well. Perhaps you can give the impression, without saying so, that you took an extended break but whatever you do don't try to hide one lie with another.

Equally there is no certainty that you will be dismissed for this, although you may well be. Draw attention to all the positive things you have done since you have been in the job and try to put the "oversight" down to your eagerness to work for this firm.

Resigning may not help very much and could make claiming JSA harder.

Above all learn from the past and move forwards.
Thank you for your reponse. I appreciate it.

Yes I was in the job for three months until my sickness bought it to their attention which then bought my line manager into questioning.

I have learnt from my mistake but the firm are being reluctant to give me a chance to prove myself. I am upset that after being an excellent performer and really contributing to many changes, they are not willing to overlook this.

As a result, I'm wondering whether resigning before dismissal is better than allowing dismissal for future jobs. I'd only use JSA for a temporary period whilst I try my best to secure another job but isn't something I want to be on long term. I do want to be working and contributing to society. I just don't know how bad dismissal will look for prospective employers... especially with "falsifying information" on my back.
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# 5
Horace
Old 22-07-2009, 6:20 PM
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If you resigned then the jobcentre view this as having made yourself jobless and it makes it harder to claim JSA. If you are dismissed then getting JSA is easier - no-one likes JSA but sometimes needs must.

Start looking for another job - and when asked don't lie because that won't help but show genuine remorse and say that you are young and have learnt from your mistakes.
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# 6
chipmoon
Old 22-07-2009, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Horace View Post
For one thing a lot of university students cheat and it is very easy these days to spot that they are cheating (I am not saying that all students cheat but some do). You say you were asked to resit the exam that you cheated on - how did you do?

Depending on the severity of the lie on your application - you may face the sack but then again if you are an excellent worker then you may get off with a written warning. If you resign before your disciplinary then that proves your guilt - best to let your employer lay their cards on the table and see what they say and see what you can do to appeal to their better nature because at the moment it is all a case of what if...and what if may never happen. Was it a genuine mistake that you put down someone who wasnt your line manager or was it a deliberate attempt to mislead? There is a difference.

I have never been sacked from a job so I have no idea if being sacked has an impact on your future job prospects. However, I wish you well.
Thankyou very much Horace.

I passed 2nd time round. The first they marked 0. The second I passed at 58% or something and I also sat right at the front of the hall in front of four examiners and the people who roam around the hall so definitely not making that mistake again.

See I do want to let them do that but I am really worried they will sack me. From what I've heard, people who get dismissed never get jobs and I really don't want to sit on JSA for the rest of my life. I do want to do something useful and make use of the skills I do have. If I resigned, it wouldn't be to do with me being guilty but rather me not leaving with dismissal on my back for falsifying information!!!

I stated another senior manager was my current line manager when I knew she wasn't but I had put the real one down because I really didn't think it was an issue. I thought everybody does it. I have been asked to come into a meeting with the managers with regards to the reference but they have not told me what they will do. They have just labelled it reference query and of course I'm going to be asked why I did it.

I have been told not to say "I didn't know" because ignorance isn't a reason but that that is the actual reason. I actually didn't know it was wrong. Other than that I don't know how to explain myself. I now KNOW it is wrong but at the time of submitting the form, I didn't know that.

It really was a genuine mistake. I didn't do it to mislead them. I just thought I could choose someone senior and chose someone who wasn't my line manager but knows the details of my work and performance and can comment on my performance. I didn't realise it's something punishable or deemed as falsifying information.

Last edited by chipmoon; 22-07-2009 at 6:25 PM.
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# 7
iamana1ias
Old 22-07-2009, 6:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chipmoon View Post
I stated another senior manager was my current line manager when I knew she wasn't but I had put the real one down because I really didn't think it was an issue. I thought everybody does it. I have been asked to come into a meeting with the managers with regards to the reference but they have not told me what they will do. They have just labelled it reference query and of course I'm going to be asked why I did it.

I have been told not to say "I didn't know" because ignorance isn't a reason but that that is the actual reason. I actually didn't know it was wrong. Other than that I don't know how to explain myself. I now KNOW it is wrong but at the time of submitting the form, I didn't know that.

It really was a genuine mistake. I didn't do it to mislead them. I just thought I could choose someone senior and chose someone who wasn't my line manager but knows the details of my work and performance and can comment on my performance. I didn't realise it's something punishable or deemed as falsifying information.
Who did they ask you to name as a referee? your manager or anyone?

If they specifically asked for your line manager, and you knowingly gave someone else's details, then it wasn't a mistake at all and you must have named the other person for a reason. :rolleyes:
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# 8
chipmoon
Old 22-07-2009, 6:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horace View Post
If you resigned then the jobcentre view this as having made yourself jobless and it makes it harder to claim JSA. If you are dismissed then getting JSA is easier - no-one likes JSA but sometimes needs must.

Start looking for another job - and when asked don't lie because that won't help but show genuine remorse and say that you are young and have learnt from your mistakes.
I read something about not being able to get JSA for gross misconduct. Is falsifying information and gross misconduct the same thing? I just can't see any employer wanting to employ me after falsifying information. They may think I will do it to them too. Other than denying my line manager (as I say not with intent).

If they ask me why I got dismissed, should I say it's because I falsified information during the recruitment process? I normally am honest and open about stuff, I just really didn't think this was a big thing. If I did, I wouldn't have done it.

And I have learnt from my mistake. I just don't know why they are so quick to dismiss me.
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# 9
chipmoon
Old 22-07-2009, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by iamana1ias View Post
Who did they ask you to name as a referee? your manager or anyone?

If they specifically asked for your line manager, and you knowingly gave someone else's details, then it wasn't a mistake at all and you must have named the other person for a reason. :rolleyes:
Well the application form said "line manager" and as I was an internal member of staff, I read a policy once that said, you can put another "senior manager" who is aware of your responsibility and role. As such, I put the other one down. And she is definitely someone who can line manage me.

I didn't put my real manager down because I was scared. We had known issues which I felt would affect my reference. I don't know why, it was just all a big mistake.

I am excellent in all other ways in terms of performance etc, that is the only mistake I made - saying who my line manager is.
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# 10
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Old 22-07-2009, 6:40 PM
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You have a couple of options. The reality is you lied about the reference to avoid your real line manager giving a bad reference. You can either claim that you thought the manager you named had a better knowledge of you as a worker and would give a more accurate reference or you can be honest about it and say there were issues, however if these issues were to do with your work and not something personal between you then if I was your employer i'd class that as you deliberately misleading me and trying to stop me from getting an honest and accurate reference for you.

I'd expect this could affect future applications, especially when coupled with your university history, but that isn't an excuse to do the same and lie on future applications to avoid both your previous line manager giving a reference and your current employer doing the same (which would likely mention the reason you were dismissed (if that happens))
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# 11
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Old 22-07-2009, 6:46 PM
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Originally Posted by chipmoon View Post
Well the application form said "line manager" and as I was an internal member of staff, I read a policy once that said, you can put another "senior manager" who is aware of your responsibility and role. As such, I put the other one down. And she is definitely someone who can line manage me.

I didn't put my real manager down because I was scared. We had known issues which I felt would affect my reference. I don't know why, it was just all a big mistake.

I am excellent in all other ways in terms of performance etc, that is the only mistake I made - saying who my line manager is.
oh dear ....................
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# 12
chipmoon
Old 22-07-2009, 6:53 PM
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Well I have learnt my lesson from this and will obviously be putting the right person down from now on. In fact I will triple check my forms before submitting for future reference.

The issues with my manager wasn't to do with my work, as I say I am an excellent worker. It were personal reasons - she didn't like that I stood up to her when she was doing wrong or when she saw people doing wrong and she used to let them get away with it. She also made comments that I was too young to be in the position I am in etc etc. The issues I had with her is because she wouldn't be a manager and just someone who would come in enjoy life and go home. She used work time to make personal phone calls as well as other perosnal things such as shopping etc - of course I'm not going to sit there and take that happening while I'm actually working and she didn't like that I didn't let her get away with it. And I guess that lead me to putting the other one down as my line manager. Because she gave me that support.
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# 13
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Old 22-07-2009, 8:54 PM
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I can see your problem - basically you didnt get on with your actual line manager due to a personality clash (that's the polite way of putting it). Maybe you should be honest and say that you were scared of this manager which is why you put the details of the other manager down as she also knows your work as you have worked with her in the past (I am assuming that you have worked with her?)

There is no need to stay on JSA for ever either because if you are a clever person (you must be with a degree) then there is no reason why you can't set up your own business. Well done on getting 58% in your re-sit anyway. Invigilators can be scary when they walk up and down (I have invigilated before and it is one way of staving off sleep).
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Old 22-07-2009, 9:22 PM
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If you have a problem with your line manager, just remember this, They CAN'T give you a bad reference. All they can do is state the truth, if they don't, then you can sue them for 'false information likely to prevent you from future employment'.
Anyway, be truthful with your current employers. Tell them about the 'problematic' line manager. Once they know the truth, it may change their final punishment.
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Old 22-07-2009, 10:05 PM
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[QUOTE=patman99;23557551]If you have a problem with your line manager, just remember this, They CAN'T give you a bad reference. All they can do is state the truth[QUOTE]

They can write what they like as long as its true, and can be backed up.

So in this case the OP can get a reference like "X was dismissed due to providing false information on their line manager".

Both true and "bad".

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# 16
chipmoon
Old 22-07-2009, 10:15 PM
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Thanks Horace (once again) and patman99. I wish I knew all of this before I went ahead and put the other one down.

I don't think they will be that easy going on me and will probably end up with dismissal. If they let me get away with it, people will say its favouritism but I honestly don't think I did anything absolutley awful. I didn't steal or affect the business in anyway. I've always put the business before my personal circumstances and have done so much to improve it. Okay I know it was wrong of me not to put down my real line manager but with the way my relationship was with her, I didn't think she would give me a justifiable reference.

I really wish I knew this at the time of applying that this would be considered falsifying information. I wouldn't have dared put the other one down and now I'm facing dismissal with possible prospects of not getting a good job ever again or having a career.
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Old 22-07-2009, 10:31 PM
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'Horace', I was referring to chipmoon's previous employer, with whom s/he had a line manager problem. Of course their current employer can state that they were dismissed for falsifying information.
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# 18
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Old 23-07-2009, 12:39 AM
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Well, I don't think I can offer any better help than already offered re getting your next job.

My advice would be for you to look beyond this, even at this stage. In a few years time you need to be able to demonstrate a past history which demonstrates your lying and cheating days are behind you (no point pulling punches here - it's what employers will be thinking). And I think that will be important for you too ... if you don't work for that goal and stick to it you will be lost. Behavioural traits are judged - by all of us - very much on habitual behaviour. If in the future you can demonstrate habitual honesty and integrity, your current misdemeanors will more likely be dismissed as glitchy behaviour you've learnt from and moved on from - you will be seen as a stronger and better person for it ... but you have to stay clean from here on!

And it's only a hunch, but if you buy into that goal now and commit to it, it may just help you come across better when going for jobs at the moment. Mindset counts for a lot.

All the best with it.
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# 19
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Old 23-07-2009, 12:44 AM
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The issues with my manager wasn't to do with my work, as I say I am an excellent worker. It were personal reasons - she didn't like that I stood up to her when she was doing wrong or when she saw people doing wrong and she used to let them get away with it. She also made comments that I was too young to be in the position I am in etc etc. The issues I had with her is because she wouldn't be a manager and just someone who would come in enjoy life and go home. She used work time to make personal phone calls as well as other perosnal things such as shopping etc - of course I'm not going to sit there and take that happening while I'm actually working and she didn't like that I didn't let her get away with it. And I guess that lead me to putting the other one down as my line manager. Because she gave me that support.
Sorry chipmoon but I genuinely do have to ask you this. Is what you are saying here 100% true?
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# 20
chipmoon
Old 23-07-2009, 9:22 AM
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Yes it is, reheat and it was known by management that there were strong area of management needs there. You need to meet her yourself and work with her and then you'll see what I mean. If you saw what I have endured while in that work place, you wouldn't think it was a workplace but a school playground. I can sit here all day saying what she did and didn't do and she gets away with it because she always blags things off or gets others to do her work for her.

And thank you for your previous comment - trust me, I've really learnt a lesson. The new job was a promotion for me, I no longer have that anymore. I won't be lying in anything ever again. This job was the second job I have ever applied for asking for references, the first being 7 years ago. As such, I didn't really think things like that matter. If I knew back then what I know now then I wouldn't have done what I did and it is definitely a learning curve that I have reflected on.
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