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  • FIRST POST
    • richardc1983
    • By richardc1983 4th Feb 09, 2:03 AM
    • 1,889Posts
    • 1,006Thanks
    richardc1983
    Air to Air Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide
    • #1
    • 4th Feb 09, 2:03 AM
    Air to Air Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide 4th Feb 09 at 2:03 AM
    With all the posts ongoing here regarding heat pumps etc I have decided to start a new post I have put together with information on reverse cycle air conditioning (heat pumps), where people can ask questions, chat about heat pumps, discuss experiences, installs, electricity usage & anything else heat pumps related.
    Theres a lot of info here to take in, please do read it all as this may just


    How does it work?

    It's actually quite simple. Air conditioners work in much the same way as your refrigerator except there are two separate, but integral, parts to the system. There is an outside unit housing the compressor that is similar to the exterior back of your fridge. It draws warmth from the outside air in even the coldest of weather. That warmth is then transferred inside the home using a refrigerant process through a piping system powered by an indoor fan unit that is typically mounted to the wall. This is why the system is also often referred to as a heat pump rather then air conditioning. Both are in fact the same. Similarly, in summer, the reverse happens. Warm air is drawn from the interior room and expelled by the outside unit.

    Heat Pumps are capable of transferring up to 4kW of heat into a space while only consuming 1kW of electrical energy. The energy efficiency of a heat pump will decreases as the temperature difference between inside and outside becomes greater, even at low temperatures a heat pump can provide 3 times as much heat as a normal electric space heater would provide with the same amount of electricity input. This makes Heat pumps extremely energy efficient.

    "Not all Heat Pumps are designed to continue working where temperatures fall below freezing point"

    The principle of air conditioning always comes down to the same:

    absorb energy in one place and release it in another place

    The process requires an indoor unit, an outdoor unit and copper piping to connect both. Through the piping the refrigerant flows from one unit to another. It is the refrigerant that absorbs the energy in one unit and releases it in the other.
    Cooling mode (Heating mode is the same but in reverse)

    1 Indoor unit
    A fan blows the hot indoor air over a heat exchanging coil through which cold refrigerant flows. The cold refrigerant absorbs the heat from the air and cooled air is blown into the room.
    2 Copper piping
    The refrigerant circulates through the units and the piping and takes the heat from the indoor unit to the outdoor unit.
    3 Outdoor unit
    Through compression, the refrigerant gas is heated and its boiling point increases. In the outdoor unit the obtained heat throught compression is released to the outdoor air by means of a fan which blows the outdoor air over a heat exchanging coil.
    4 Refrigerant
    The liquid refrigerant flows back to the indoor unit.
    5 Indoor unit
    Back in the indoor unit, the refrigerant is decompressed and thus enabled to extract heat form the indoor air.



    Comparison of 2400w fan heater & Heat Pump Running Costs:

    http://www.bdt.co.nz/comfortmaster/data/guides/WinterRunningCostsComparison.pdf - this is for Mitsubishi Electric but savings made on other manufacters however these will vary.

    Inverter Technology:

    Here's some info about inverters, the same applies across all manufacturers however efficiency levels are different but the operation side of things is the same. There is an article at the bottom from Mitsubishi Electric where they have done a comparison test for a fan heater and heat pump. This is not unique to Mitsubishi Electric, similar costs will be seen across all heat pumps... its a very efficient technology. Different manufacturers will have different efficiencies. The best manufacturers are Mitsubishi Electric, Daikin, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Fujitsu, Sanyo, LG, any other manufactures are entry level and will not offer as good quality systems or efficiencies.

    Inverter systems save energy by using a variable controlled Compressor. The output is controlled to only provide the energy required to keep the room to the set temperature. By reducing the output required less power is used and this substantially reduces power consumption. Inverter control not only saves you money but also keeps you more comfortable.


    Inverter System or Fixed Speed System?

    What is a Fixed Speed Split System?

    This system only has a single speed compressor motor that is either on or off.

    It works similar to a fan heater that switches off when the desired temperature is reached and on again when the temperature drops to a set level. It speeds up or slows down to calculate the heat loss from the space to be heated ensuring it is only putting in the same amount of heat that the space is losing.

    What does Inverter Mean?

    Inverter technology uses a variable speed compressor motor similar to a car. It simply slows down and speeds up as needed to hold a selected comfort setting.

    Inverter technology provides a more precise room temperature without the temperature fluctuations of fixed speed systems.

    Inverter vs Fixed Speed:

    Inverter Systems are Approximately 30% more efficient than fixed speed systems.

    Inverter systems reach desired room temperature quicker.

    The speed control of the outdoor unit also means quieter operation, this is important especially at night in residential areas.









    Inverter Systems
    • Increased output to achieve set temperature faster.
    • Then varies the output to maintain a constant room temperature.








    Fixed Speed Type
    • Slowly gets to temperature as output rating is fixed.
    • Then turns on and off to maintain room temperature.
    Sizing of units:

    Read the following guide for sizing info: Excuse the references to Australia and New Zealand this contains useful info:

    http://www.bdt.co.nz/comfortmaster/data/guides/heatpump_sizing_quideline.pdf


    What type of unit is best suited for your property:

    Heat Pumps / Air Conditioners are manufactured with various indoor unit options. High Wall Type, Ceiling Cassette Type, Floor Mounted Type, Concealed Ducted Type, and Under Ceiling Type.


    High Wall-mounted

    The most popular residential unit choice. These units tend to be the quietest as well as taking up no floor space.

    Compact Floor Console

    The floor mounted are more designed for heating applications. They are ideal for space heater or gas fire/fireplace replacement. They can be recess mounted into the wall cavity giving a shallow profile for hallway installation.

    Ceiling Cassette

    The ceiling mounted units take up no floor space. These units have four way air direction and have adjustable air flow patterns. These units are more suited to larger floor areas & commercial properties.

    Ceiling Concealed (Ducted)

    These units are mounted in the ceiling space and are unseen in the conditioned space. The only visible presence is the supply and return air grilles.

    Ceiling Suspended

    These units are more suited to high stud large room areas. They tend to have high airflows and are more suited to commercial applications.

    Multi-Split Systems








    Multiple Indoor Units can be Connected to a Single Outdoor
    • Connect from 2 to 8 Indoor Units
    • Many Combination Patterns to choose
    • Energy Saving and Quiet Operation
    • Five Multi-Split Systems from 6.4kW to 16.0kW (Heating)
    Inverter Multi-Split system models are designed to allow several indoor units (regardless of capacity or type) to be connected to a single outdoor unit. This allows you to select the model best suited to each and every room in your property.


    Example: 3x Bedrooms and 1x Office

    ~


    Location of units:

    Indoors:

    Don’t locate units with obstructions in front.

    Result:


    Short cycling of air back to units room sensor making the unit think its wamer/cooler than it actually is.
    Air is not circulated correctly leaving cold/hot areas in room.

    Try to locate the indoor unit where the airflow is pointing to the other areas of the house that may require residual heating/cooling.

    Outdoors:

    Avoid paved areas unless a drain kit is fitted. Result: Units condensate and drip water. May cause slime build up or ice. If no other place please advise customer.

    Noise:
    Outdoor inverter units are very quiet and have scroll compressors, watch the following video and you will see mine in action:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mUzYHEfQEY


    Defrost Cycles & Correct Sizing of Outdoor Unit:
    Defrost will happen in all climates, however the lower the humidity the less frequent it will defrost as it takes longer for it to build up on the outdoor coil.

    You will probably not even notice it defrosting, if you buy a decent brand system you will find that the defrost strategy is very good so that it doesn’t take long to defrost.

    When they defrost you will find that the system goes into reverse, taking heat from the inside circuit to the outdoor unit so it defrosts. This will last about 5 minutes depending on how much ice has built up but you have to look at the unit to notice it doing it as it doesn’t start making things cold inside. The unit just doesn’t heat during that time.

    Some units in New Zealand or other countries that have very cold winters have units optimised for that country, i.e. defrost cycles instead of stopping and going into reverse will inject hot gas into the outdoor unit whilst the unit is heating so that it doesn’t actually stop heating. Currently can only find info on Sanyo air to air heat pumps in this country that do this... not sure of a system that does this on a unit that will provide this on hot water but you can see the technology is there. As I say you don’t need it in the UK climate our winters are not as harsh as some countries.

    The best method for new builds is under floor heating, nice even temps throughout, however longer warm up times due to the lower water temperature but if left on during cold weather you will be fine.

    I personally prefer fan coil units as these double up as cooling/ac for the summer and provide very fast warm up times.

    Most air to water outdoor units can be used with fan coil units... you just use a fan coil instead of a water coil in the floor.

    Mounting of unit... must be installed in the open, no enclosure, so no garages, lofts or corners the unit must be in the open air.

    A user in another post:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=29040015#post29040015

    He installed it in the loft and it froze the loft in the cold weather and thawed and caused leaks into the house below, this happened twice and after this he decided to mount the unit outside and it performed better as it was effectively turning the loft into a giant fridge/freezer.

    Here’s some more info on heat pumps:



    Defrost Strategy

    When the outside temperature drops below zero all heat pumps must perform a “defrost cycle” to remove ice build up on their outdoor coils.

    Defrost strategy is determined by individual Heat Pump manufacturers. These strategies vary greatly between brands. Older style Heat Pumps initiated defrost by a fixed time or coil temperature. This system was not efficient as it often caused Heat Pumps to defrost too often or effected performance by not defrosting often enough. Defrost cycle is required when the outdoor coil is too cold or covered in ice preventing heat transfer and unit performance.

    All Heat Pumps must defrost. heats pumps utilise a Fuzzy Logic software program, a form of Artificial Intelligence contained in the chip of the outdoor unit and typically lasts between 3 to 5 minutes.

    The program measures and records:

    - Ambient Temperature
    - Outdoor Coil Temperature
    - Accumulated Continuous Heating Running Times
    - Defrost Initiation Time and Termination Times

    The program optimises this data based on history to produce defrost initiation only when absolutely required.

    This is important as Heat Pumps are unable to produce heat when they are in defrost mode. This is extremely important to real performance in low ambient conditions.

    Defrost Cycle Management

    Heat Pumps optimise its defrost cycle once selected in three ways:
    When the outside temperature drops below zero all heat pumps must perform a “defrost cycle” to remove ice build up on their outdoor coils.

    Defrost strategy is determined by individual Heat Pump manufacturers. These strategies vary greatly between brands. Older style Heat Pumps initiated defrost by a fixed time or coil temperature. This system was not efficient as it often caused Heat Pumps to defrost too often or effected performance by not defrosting often enough. Defrost cycle is required when the outdoor coil is too cold or covered in ice preventing heat transfer and unit performance.

    The program measures and records:

    - Ambient Temperature
    - Outdoor Coil Temperature
    - Accumulated Continuous Heating Running Times
    - Defrost Initiation Time and Termination Times

    The program optimises this data based on history to produce defrost initiation only when absolutely required.

    This is important as Heat Pumps are unable to produce heat when they are in defrost mode. This is extremely important to real performance in low ambient conditions.



    1. Compressor Control
    When a Heat Pump is defrosting it is not providing heat to the controlled space. It runs the compressor(inverter drive) at maximum speed during defrost to bring the outdoor coil up to temperature as quickly as possible. This melts any ice formed on the coil fins quickly and minimises defrost time. Minimising defrost time maximises heat output per hour real time.

    2. Dry Coil Defrost Cycle
    Once the outdoor coil is up to temperature and the compressor cycle has completed there is generally water between the outside coil fins. If the outdoor unit were to immediately resume heating the outdoor coil would freeze and prevent heat exchange. To prevent this the outdoor fan is run at maximum speed prior to resumption of the heating cycle. This is often characterized by steam blowing from the outdoor unit. This ensures the coil is completely dry before the heating cycle resumes.

    3. Time optimization through Fuzzy Logic
    Time between defrost cycles is continually being reviewed and optimized by the Heat Pump microprocessor software. Algorithmic calculations based on previous history is used to calculate the next defrost period.

    Fuzzy Logic or learning logic is a form of artificial intelligence. Defrost cycle termination is based on a combination of time and temperature. These parameters are used to calculate the next defrost period.

    Outdoor Humidity
    Outdoor humidity also effects heating performance. Areas that have a “dry cold” or low humidity such as “Mount Cook” will perform better at low ambient than say Taupo where ambient conditions can reach zero and “misty” moisture laden air conditions exists. The more moisture in the air the more moisture will freeze on the outdoor coil.

    Incorrect Unit Selection
    If a unit is selected that is too small the Heat Pump will run continuously and never reach set point. This continuous running will increase defrost requirements by reducing the outdoor coil running temperature and driving it into sub zero temperatures for excessive periods. The unit will defrost at the minimum intervals and may never catch up and achieve set point.

    Location of Outdoor Unit
    Location of the outdoor unit is essential for low ambient performance. Units located under houses, decking and in areas where airflow is impeded may create their own microclimate (i.e. giant fridge/freezer or in summer oven) and reduce the effective outdoor ambient temperature that the units operates in. Locating the outdoor unit too close to a wall and not observing clearances will also prevent the unit from delivering full output.


    Get the correct sized unit:
    Choosing the right sized Heat Pump is key to ensuring optimum comfort levels. Every home is as individual as its owner. The key to selecting the right Heat Pump for heating your home is choosing the correct unit size. Choosing the wrong size can cost you more in power consumption.


    Insulation and building orientation are key aspects in terms of potential heat loss a home is effected by. An older style home with poor insulation will lose indoor heat much quicker than a modern well insulated home that faces north.
    The quicker a home loses its heat, the bigger the Heat Pump system will need to overcome this heat loss.
    Last edited by richardc1983; 03-01-2011 at 4:00 PM.
Page 84
    • wrightk
    • By wrightk 7th Dec 17, 12:08 PM
    • 930 Posts
    • 511 Thanks
    wrightk
    thanks for this. it seems as if there will be a survey after xmas, then the work will proceed a week after dependent on whether we decide to proceed. I was told this morning that the system they use is 'atherma' and there is only a choice out of 3 systems and this is the one they use. they have told me it will be air to air, but then went on about having radiators in the living room, hall, bedrooms, a large ceiling one for kitchen etc so now im not sure? sorry i am a complete novice on this.
    Also told that bedrooms will be set to 18 degrees and living room 21 as standard but system can run up to 24 if needed
    i was told that there will also be a large hot water tank cited in a cupboard or worst case scenario the loft.
    i asked about reviews etc and was told when they started putting them in they had complaints about DHW not being hot enough but now have changed a valve or something to provide at least 60degrees DHW.

    Does any of this sound about right. i am completely off grid btw. no mains gas. just a 15kw multi fuel stove with DHW tank and immersion. Heat pump provides CH to 7 rads in winter. My energy usage last year was 6500kw (about £1k), this doesnt include the price of coal/kindling
    Last edited by wrightk; 07-12-2017 at 12:10 PM.
    Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and for once I'm inclined to believe Withnail is right. We are indeed drifting into the arena of the unwell.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Dec 17, 1:07 PM
    • 3,816 Posts
    • 4,728 Thanks
    zeupater
    thanks for this. it seems as if there will be a survey after xmas, then the work will proceed a week after dependent on whether we decide to proceed. I was told this morning that the system they use is 'atherma' and there is only a choice out of 3 systems and this is the one they use. they have told me it will be air to air, but then went on about having radiators in the living room, hall, bedrooms, a large ceiling one for kitchen etc so now im not sure? sorry i am a complete novice on this.
    Also told that bedrooms will be set to 18 degrees and living room 21 as standard but system can run up to 24 if needed
    i was told that there will also be a large hot water tank cited in a cupboard or worst case scenario the loft.
    i asked about reviews etc and was told when they started putting them in they had complaints about DHW not being hot enough but now have changed a valve or something to provide at least 60degrees DHW.

    Does any of this sound about right. i am completely off grid btw. no mains gas. just a 15kw multi fuel stove with DHW tank and immersion. Heat pump provides CH to 7 rads in winter. My energy usage last year was 6500kw (about £1k), this doesnt include the price of coal/kindling
    Originally posted by wrightk
    Hi

    £1k for 6500kWh suggests that you're using loads of electricity (17.8kWh/day) even though you have a burner with back boiler ... are you using electricity to provide heat too ?

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 7th Dec 17, 1:30 PM
    • 3,188 Posts
    • 1,906 Thanks
    matelodave
    I've got a Daikin Altherma - 11kw with a 200 litre hot water tank and it's been running for seven years.

    We have underfloor heating so it will run a bit cooler than rads but the secret with an air source heat pump is to run it for much longer at cooler temperatures. You are better off turning the main stat down a couple of degrees over night rather than shutting it off. A luke warm rad on most of the day is better than one that alternates between red hot and cold

    We are happy with our hot water tank temperature at 45 degrees with a boost to 60 once a week to kill off any legionella.


    To get the temp up to 60 a heat pump has to use an immersion heater which reduces it's efficiency, so the lower your hot water temp the cheaper it is to run. Most people have hot water from the hot tap and then run in a load of cold - we use ours straight from the hot tap. It's hot enough for a shower and to wash up stuff although we use a dish washer.

    We have a fairly large detached bungalow with average insulation and we are at home all day, so the heating is on most of the time. We are also all electric, cooking etc and my wife doesn't stint on the heating or use of the tumble dryer - even in the summer.

    This year we'll use a total of around 6300kwh of leccy at 12p/kwh = £756 and I've just changed supplier for another 12 month fix at around 11.9p/kwh plus 14p/day standing charge = about £800.

    Heatpumps are very sensitive to temperature changes so the cooler you can run them the cheaper they are.

    If you are an avid meter watcher you'll find that the consumption can look quite high if it's very cold outside but averaged out we are very pleased with ours but it's worth while learning how to use it to get maximum benefit
    Last edited by matelodave; 07-12-2017 at 1:34 PM.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • Boxergy FW
    • By Boxergy FW 7th Dec 17, 7:04 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Boxergy FW
    Hi all,
    we are a new energy startup.
    We want to convert UK home heating to be 100% renewable and help improve our environment.
    Would you help us by taking a short survey?
    Just 9 questions, less than 10 minutes to do.
    Unfortunately the forum doesn't allow us to ad a link.
    But you can find it on our website (boxergy.com)

    Thank you very much
    Last edited by Boxergy FW; 07-12-2017 at 7:07 PM. Reason: Thanks
    • wrightk
    • By wrightk 7th Dec 17, 7:23 PM
    • 930 Posts
    • 511 Thanks
    wrightk
    Hi

    £1k for 6500kWh suggests that you're using loads of electricity (17.8kWh/day) even though you have a burner with back boiler ... are you using electricity to provide heat too ?

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    No, just a tumble dryer (even though its an a rated one) most weeks, 4 children and us :P
    Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and for once I'm inclined to believe Withnail is right. We are indeed drifting into the arena of the unwell.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Dec 17, 7:27 PM
    • 3,816 Posts
    • 4,728 Thanks
    zeupater
    Hi all,
    we are a new energy startup.
    We want to convert UK home heating to be 100% renewable and help improve our environment.
    Would you help us by taking a short survey?
    Just 9 questions, less than 10 minutes to do.
    Unfortunately the forum doesn't allow us to ad a link.
    But you can find it on our website (******.com)

    Thank you very much
    Originally posted by Boxergy FW
    Hi

    .... by converting to 100% renewable heating I take it that you're talking about running your high efficiency (100% efficient?) electric heaters with 100% renewable sourced electricity ?? ....

    Problem there is that all resistance based electric heating (panel heaters, storage heaters etc) are pretty close to 100% efficient in converting electrons to heat, so unless the laws of physics have changed, any one form of standard resistance electric heating source can't be any more efficient than any other, they can only provide the same amount of heat over a longer time period (eg storage heaters) ....

    Now, many around here already operate their heating at 300% to 600% efficient already, but that's a different technology and therefore a different story ... so no thanks, I think I'll pass on the survey ....

    I think I'll put the appropriate sign up at this point ...
    .... no that's the wrong one ...
    .. that's better ...


    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 7th Dec 17, 7:30 PM
    • 3,188 Posts
    • 1,906 Thanks
    matelodave
    My thoughts as well - spam button pressed
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Dec 17, 7:46 PM
    • 3,816 Posts
    • 4,728 Thanks
    zeupater
    No, just a tumble dryer (even though its an a rated one) most weeks, 4 children and us :P
    Originally posted by wrightk
    Hi

    Then at over double the average electricity use for a UK household that's a horrendously high use of electricity ... do you have an energy monitor, whole house or plug in? ... you really should look to trace down what's causing that level of consumption ... a smart-meter won't save you any money, all it will do is tell you what you're using, which a <£10 plug in monitor and/or ~£25 whole house monitor could be doing for you already ...

    If you're still on old incandescent lightbulbs think about a trip to 5crewfix (or similar) and buy a load of LED replacements, they're usually something like 5 for £10, with GU10 halogen replacements much cheaper - this alone would likely save a fortune, but whatever, using a tumble-dryer for a couple of loads a week isn't going to to explain well over 3000kWh of additional consumption ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • wrightk
    • By wrightk 8th Dec 17, 7:02 AM
    • 930 Posts
    • 511 Thanks
    wrightk
    We do have a smart meter,energy saving bulbs etc. The brunt of the cost is the immersion which is on a lot especially in the summer when there is no source of hot water other than this
    .
    Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and for once I'm inclined to believe Withnail is right. We are indeed drifting into the arena of the unwell.
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 8th Dec 17, 7:56 AM
    • 3,188 Posts
    • 1,906 Thanks
    matelodave
    A 180 litre tank will take approx 9kwh to heat from 15 to 60 degrees so perhaps you should consider trying to economise on it a bit or reduce you water temperature.

    Take shorter showers, have shallower baths and perhaps fewer of them. Dont let hot water run down the sink and don't rinse stuff (including your hands) in hot water.

    Every time you run off the cold from the hot tap you leave a similar amount of hot water sitting the pipes getting cold and wasting all the nergy that you've paid for heating it up.

    I reckon my heatpump uses about 2kwh of leccy to heat our tank

    I'd be very inclined to start reading your meter, at least weekly and recording it in a spreadsheet before you get your heatpump so you can monitor what effect it has on your consumption. Once you get some data you'll be able to judge what effect any tweaking you do has.

    You need to make sure that you are on the best leccy tariff that you can get - we find that we dont use enough overnight to be on an E7 tariff.

    If you want to see how our consumption varies have a look here www.energyhive.com/dashboard/dave although today will be pretty grim as it's still frosty outside (the heating kicked in at about 1:30 this morning) The washing machine went on just after 10 and will be flogging it's heart out together with the tumble dryer when the first load gets done.

    You can look at the daily, weekly and monthly histories to see how it varies throughout the year and you'll see that we probably use nearly 50% of our annual energy between December and February
    Last edited by matelodave; 08-12-2017 at 10:30 AM.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • Boxergy FW
    • By Boxergy FW 8th Dec 17, 2:02 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Boxergy FW
    Hi

    .... by converting to 100% renewable heating I take it that you're talking about running your high efficiency (100% efficient?) electric heaters with 100% renewable sourced electricity ?? ....

    Problem there is that all resistance based electric heating (panel heaters, storage heaters etc) are pretty close to 100% efficient in converting electrons to heat, so unless the laws of physics have changed, any one form of standard resistance electric heating source can't be any more efficient than any other, they can only provide the same amount of heat over a longer time period (eg storage heaters) ....

    Now, many around here already operate their heating at 300% to 600% efficient already, but that's a different technology and therefore a different story ... so no thanks, I think I'll pass on the survey ....

    I think I'll put the appropriate sign up at this point ...
    .... no that's the wrong one ...
    .. that's better ...


    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater

    Hi, you're right. In fact we will use ASHP as the title of the forum, but with a different and new technology that will improve the utilization of the asset.
    But for the moment what we need most is to understand from you ASHP users or prospective ones, wich are your main concerns and problems you have encountered.
    We are not selling anything yet and don't want to be spam. We just want to understand your opinions guys.
    As the need for the survey.

    Thanks
    • wrightk
    • By wrightk 8th Dec 17, 2:10 PM
    • 930 Posts
    • 511 Thanks
    wrightk
    Thanks, currently on prepay which we will be looking to change (previous tenants left but we have kept for the last 6 yeara)advantages are budgeting,and its so easy to top up via smart phone these days. Our immersion dhw tank is only a year old as we had a system change but was told to leave immersion on constant by installer so this prob accounts for the bulk of the cost if im honest. We have a power shower but its only used around 1 day a week.baths are the choice here unfortunately. Sounds promising with the heat pump. Will it be very invasive work ?
    Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and for once I'm inclined to believe Withnail is right. We are indeed drifting into the arena of the unwell.
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 8th Dec 17, 2:57 PM
    • 3,188 Posts
    • 1,906 Thanks
    matelodave
    Thanks, currently on prepay which we will be looking to change (previous tenants left but we have kept for the last 6 yeara)advantages are budgeting,and its so easy to top up via smart phone these days. Our immersion dhw tank is only a year old as we had a system change but was told to leave immersion on constant by installer so this prob accounts for the bulk of the cost if im honest. We have a power shower but its only used around 1 day a week.baths are the choice here unfortunately. Sounds promising with the heat pump. Will it be very invasive work ?
    Originally posted by wrightk
    It depends what they are actually going to do and how much replumbing of your internal system is required.

    You might end up with a different hot water tank as most heatpumps require a higher flow and bigger coils inside the tank.

    The Heatpump unit can take two forms, a split unit where you've got a hydrobox on the wall that looks like a conventional boiler with the fan-unit outside with refrigerant pipes between them. I've seen split units where the hydrobox and hotwater tank are all in one casing but still with the outside unit

    Alternatively there's a monobloc, where all the gubbins is in the external unit and you've got hot water pipes between the two.

    Have a shufti at the Daikin Altherma website for some piccies

    https://www.daikin.co.uk/content/dam/dauk/document-library/Brochures/Heating/Heating%20Homeowner%20brochures/Daikin%20Altherma%20Low%20Temperature%20Split%20He at%20Pump_homeowner_brochure_English.pdf

    or here for monobloc

    https://www.daikin.co.uk/content/dam/dauk/document-library/Brochures/Heating/Heating%20Homeowner%20brochures/Daikin%20Altherma%20Low%20Temperature%20Monobloc%2 0Heat%20Pump_homeowner_brochure_English.pdf

    Or here for their High Temperature unit which isn't quite so efficient as it runs at a higher temperature and is more suitable for retrofit/boiler replacement without too much disruption of the existing plumbing - it's effectively a heatpump feeding another heatpump to increase the flow temperature.

    https://www.daikin.co.uk/content/dam/dauk/document-library/Brochures/Heating/Heating%20Homeowner%20brochures/Daikin%20Altherma%20High%20Temperature%20Heat%20Pu mp_homeowner_brochure_English.pdf

    I don't know what they are proposing for your situation although I'm guessing that you can keep your solid fuel if you dont want a heat pump.

    I did note that you mentioned a large ceiling unit for the kitchen - that sounds suspiciously like an air-air system.

    That would consist of units that look a bit like fan radiators and would have fans in them all connected back to an external unit with refrigaraent pipes - I've no knowledge of them except for places that have air conditioning.

    You can look at the Altherma Air-Air website to see whats available but there are a multitude of internal units, from posh to very basic. All the external units look very similar - it's how you get the heat into your home that differs.

    https://www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/product-group/air-to-air-heat-pumps.html

    Please keep us posted when they come and make you an offer
    Last edited by matelodave; 08-12-2017 at 3:30 PM.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Dec 17, 3:26 PM
    • 3,816 Posts
    • 4,728 Thanks
    zeupater
    Hi, you're right. In fact we will use ASHP as the title of the forum, but with a different and new technology that will improve the utilization of the asset.
    But for the moment what we need most is to understand from you ASHP users or prospective ones, wich are your main concerns and problems you have encountered.
    We are not selling anything yet and don't want to be spam. We just want to understand your opinions guys.
    As the need for the survey.

    Thanks
    Originally posted by Boxergy FW
    Hi

    If your solution is a heat pump of some kind you'll be going head-to head with some major international players with huge R&D resources, so unless there's considerable financial backing (£hundreds-of-millions) and the COP betters 6 you're probably looking at the wrong sector for a start-up ... if you can achieve a COP of around 2, the price would likely need to be less than one of those overpriced panel heaters which are sold with 'dodgy' claims on efficiency ...

    Best to open a new thread specifically to ask what you need & discuss opinions while keeping all of the conversations together, probably on the G&E forum as there are quite a few with heat-pumps frequenting that board, but expect to be asked for far more information than you've provided here before anyone takes the potential product seriously ... there's been far too many scams or sales ploys attempted around here in the past, so don't expect a smooth ride!

    Anyway, as a business you'll will need to follow the 'forum rules' in the page header and request permission to post as a business soon(ish), so as you're now aware, it might as well be done straight away!

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 08-12-2017 at 3:31 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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